Megathread Sonic Frontiers (2022) | MT | General Discussion (DO NOT discuss leaks here please)

[Sonicka]

13 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Hidden Island 16 in Sonic Rush adventure is a cute homage to level layout.

How you twist Windmill Isle photoshoped in Sky Sanctuary and GHZ colors into a cute homage is beyond me.

Like I said - it depends what angle you come at this from. I'm not trying to twist anything into cute, it just is what it is. 

The way I presently see it (from what we know so far) - is that these are short bonus stages to get the chaos emeralds - taking that as current knowledge, I personally don't have any particular issues (especially when you consider the story specifics as well). However, I can appreciate why others don't like this approach.

BUT, if the Cyberspace levels where the entire main bread and butter of the game, then that would indeed be a sleazy Sonic Team design move. 

 

[Zaysho]

7 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

I've played all New Super Mario series and I have all of them. They reuse music, and definitely reuse assets. New Super Mario Bros 2, for example, clearly reuse some assets from New Super Mario Bros Wii. They also reuse animations. I didn't want to keep talking about that because we would spend the least two pages talking about other games. But if that's okay...

Thank you for proving my point about how you obviously do not read what is being said in the post.

27 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

which isn't exclusive to Sonic and no one ever argued that (never mind the things you brought up are all things people who actually like and play those games have called out as being stale, especially New Super Mario Bros.).

Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

[DaBigJ]

Cyberspace levels could literally be 1% of the game and it'd still be a sleazy move. Reusing level design doesn't become any less lazy because it's not the main focus of the game.

[Natie]

It seems even more now that these levels were thrown in as an afterthought out of fear nobody would accept the Open Zone on its own.

[light-gaia]

3 hours ago, Zaysho said:

Thank you for proving my point about how you obviously do not read what is being said in the post.

Do not pass Go, do not collect $200.

Yes, I read what is being said in the thread, however, sometimes I have difficult understanding what people are saying because I'm not a native English speaker. I understood everyone was talking about reusing assets, that why I brought up New Super Mario Bros. I apologize if my post caused some confusion

Edited August 25, 2022 by light-gaia
grammar checking

[StaticMania]

58 minutes ago, ZinogreVolt said:

- Kirby Super Star (1996) and Super Star Ultra (2008) re-use the same bosses and levels as Kirby's Dream Land. Super Star Ultra does this a second time by using Dream Land's Extra Mode as a base for its extra content.

I'm sure we could always use remakes as an example.

It's easy and completely invaluable.

[Sega DogTagz]

53 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

SS doesn't look like Windmill Isle Act 2 at all. Only that part where this is a grinding rail to the left, but I don't think it's even possible to say that's a similarity.

Let's just see the whole Windmill Isle Act 2 gameplay:

It's definitely not similar.

 

Great, now I have to be the Grim Reaper. Bearer of bad news.

Lets get this over with. I'll be using this video of Frontiers for context. Apoligies for the poor video. Its all I have to work with at the moment.

 

 

 

**Unleashed 14 - 20 second mark

**Frontiers 23 - 30

Vertical thrust into an enemy pit, followed immediately by a 90 degree left turn into tall stair platforming complemented by a lift pulley, which immediately throws you over a bottomless pit featuring a homing attack chain.  

 

*********************

 

Rail sections, plural

 

**Unleashed 57 - 1:02

**Frontiers 44 -50

 

I could almost ignore the corkscrew rail, but the game rips out each of the most Iconic features of Windmill Isles rail sliding. Dramatic S curve? check. tri-rail set up, you better believe it. Big loop de loop rail pre-dated on both sides by launch devices which are awkwardly positioned too close to the loop to create an unnatural momentum breaking effect... uh, yes to that too. They even included the errors.

as for the time stamp. I want to point out something. Left. Right. Right. Left.

Its criminal how muscle memory can give something away. You can't make this stuff up.

 

**Loop Unleashed 1:02

**Loop Frontiers   38

 

****Corkskrew Unleashed 50

****Corkscrew Frontiers   51

 

*******S Curve Unleahed 45

*******S Curve Frontiers   37

 

************Tri Rail - whole thing

 

*******************

 

**Unleashed 52 to 55

**Frontiers 42 to 45

Tiny platforming section between two major grinding challenges that consists or running in a straight line over slopped terrain before getting launched at an awkward angle into grind section two by 3 horizontal springs

 

******************

**Unleashed 2:05 - 2:14

**Frontiers 1:00 - 1:06

 

Player sensitive input to reach upper route, which almost immediately reconnects to lower route via rail slide to the left. Player is then met with a spike curb as the last obstacle prior to hitting a horizontal spring which launches you up to the goal ring.

 

 

 

 

 

 

C'mon. Seriously. That much in common is not a coincidence.

 

That's just off the top of my head without the controller in my hands and via crappy and obscured footage. At least 75% of sky sanctuary is an absolute undeniable Frankenstein re-combination of Windmill Isle Act II. I'm willing to bet that number goes up higher once I get my hands on it and the muscle memory kicks in.

[light-gaia]

 

16 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Great, now I have to be the Grim Reaper. Bearer of bad news.

Lets get this over with. I'll be using this video of Frontiers for context. Apoligies for the poor video. Its all I have to work with at the moment.

Unleashed 14 - 20 second mark

Frontiers 23 - 30

Vertical thrust into an enemy pit, followed immediately by a 90 degree left turn into tall stair platforming complemented by a lift pulley, which immediately throws you over a bottomless pit featuring a homing attack chain.  

*********************

Rail sections, plural

Unleashed 57 - 1:02

Frontiers 44 -50

I could almost ignore the corkscrew rail, but the game rips out each of the most Iconic features of Windmill Isles rail sliding. Dramatic S curve? check. tri-rail set up, you better believe it. Big loop de loop rail pre-dated on both sides by launch devices which are awkwardly positioned too close to the loop to create an unnatural momentum breaking effect... uh, yes to that too. They even included the errors.

as for the time stamp. I want to point out something. Left. Right. Right. Left.

Its criminal how muscle memory can give something away. You can't make this stuff up.

Loop Unleashed 1:02

Loop Frontiers   38

Corkskrew Unleashed 50

Corkscrew Frontiers   51

S Curve Unleahed 45

S Curve Frontiers   37

Tri Rail - whole thing

*******************

Unleashed 52 to 55

Frontiers 42 to 45

Tiny platforming section between two major grinding challenges that consists or running in a straight line over slopped terrain before getting launched at an awkward angle into a grind section two by 3 horizontal springs

******************

Unleashed 2:05 - 2:14

Frontiers 1:00 - 1:06

Player sensitive input to reach upper route, which almost immediately reconnects to lower route via rail slide to the left. Player is then met with a spike curb as the last obstacle prior to hitting a horizontal spring which launches you up to the goal ring.

C'mon. Seriously. That much in common is not a coincidence.

That's just off the top of my head without the controller in my hands and via crappy and obscured footage. At least 75% of sky sanctuary is an absolute undeniable Frankenstein re-combination of Windmill Isle Act II. I'm willing to bet that number goes up higher once I get my hands on it and the muscle memory kicks in.

Actually, after rewatching both videos side by side, I'm even more confident that this is not the same layout at all. I tried watching then 3 times in a row to see if I can see the similarities you pointed out. Half of the Windmill Isle Act 2 is 2D sections, Frontiers' SS doesn't have 2D sections. Frontiers' SS looks more like a more linear version of Generations Sky Sanctuary than Windmill Isle Act 2. We have that upper platformers, just like Generations. Tri-rails sections, homming attack chains and other of these elements can be found in almost any other Unleashed or Generations levels.

[Kuzu]

*walks into thread* 

Reusing old level designs is fine when done in moderation and combined with a lot of original levels. Mania did this, hence why nobody really has an issue. 3D Sonic games have been reusing old level themes and designs for about ten years and haven't really compensated for it in other ways, so its not really as defensible.

*walks out of thread* 

[Sega DogTagz]

10 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

Actually

Actually, after rewatching both videos side by side, I'm even more confident that this is not the same layout at all. I tried watching then 3 times in a row to see if I can see the similarities you pointed out. Half of the Windmill Isle Act 2 is 2D sections, Frontiers' SS doesn't have 2D sections. Frontiers' SS looks more like a more linear version of Generations Sky Sanctuary than Windmill Isle Act 2. We have that upper platformers, just like Generations. Tri-rails sections, homming attack chains and other of these elements can be found in almost any other Unleashed or Generations levels.

Key word Frankenstein. They took pieces of Windmill, switched them around took some out and then glued them all together.

 

This isn't like GHZ where they just reskinned the level and called it a day. Act II is too long for that, so they trimmed the fat. You can't look at all those similarities and say that there isn't smoke to this fire.

 

Yes, almost all levels have homing chains, but only Frontiers SS and Unleashed WI2 have that exact same set up leading into theirs.

Yes, almost all Sonic levels have rails with loops and corkscrews, but only Frontiers SS and Unleashed WI2 have the same tri rails, the same awkward launch pads and the same defining features all at once.

Yes almost all Sonic levels have multiple routes, but only Frontiers SS and Unleashed WI2 follow the exact same pattern, with the exact same obstacles, leading up to the exact same positioning of the goal ring.

 

 

Get your eyes off the 2D sections and piece together what is there. Its all the same. Both players from both videos use the same quickstep railswitch combo during the dodge section for crying out loud.

[Iko]

4 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Great, now I have to be the Grim Reaper. Bearer of bad news.

Lets get this over with. I'll be using this video of Frontiers for context. Apoligies for the poor video. Its all I have to work with at the moment.

Unleashed 14 - 20 second mark

Frontiers 23 - 30

Vertical thrust into an enemy pit, followed immediately by a 90 degree left turn into tall stair platforming complemented by a lift pulley, which immediately throws you over a bottomless pit featuring a homing attack chain.  

*********************

Rail sections, plural

Unleashed 57 - 1:02

Frontiers 44 -50

I could almost ignore the corkscrew rail, but the game rips out each of the most Iconic features of Windmill Isles rail sliding. Dramatic S curve? check. tri-rail set up, you better believe it. Big loop de loop rail pre-dated on both sides by launch devices which are awkwardly positioned too close to the loop to create an unnatural momentum breaking effect... uh, yes to that too. They even included the errors.

as for the time stamp. I want to point out something. Left. Right. Right. Left.

Its criminal how muscle memory can give something away. You can't make this stuff up.

Loop Unleashed 1:02

Loop Frontiers   38

Corkskrew Unleashed 50

Corkscrew Frontiers   51

S Curve Unleahed 45

S Curve Frontiers   37

Tri Rail - whole thing

*******************

Unleashed 52 to 55

Frontiers 42 to 45

Tiny platforming section between two major grinding challenges that consists or running in a straight line over slopped terrain before getting launched at an awkward angle into a grind section two by 3 horizontal springs

******************

Unleashed 2:05 - 2:14

Frontiers 1:00 - 1:06

Player sensitive input to reach upper route, which almost immediately reconnects to lower route via rail slide to the left. Player is then met with a spike curb as the last obstacle prior to hitting a horizontal spring which launches you up to the goal ring.

C'mon. Seriously. That much in common is not a coincidence.

That's just off the top of my head without the controller in my hands and via crappy and obscured footage. At least 75% of sky sanctuary is an absolute undeniable Frankenstein re-combination of Windmill Isle Act II. I'm willing to bet that number goes up higher once I get my hands on it and the muscle memory kicks in.

As I said in other posts, I don't like the level design of this game, and have never been a fan of boost games' level design in general. I never played Unleashed so I didn't notice the reference at first, but indeed the level seems to be heavily inspired by Windmill Isle act 2.

But I also think that the Sky Sanctuary level is not a 1:1 copy. The proportions are different, it's more compact; the pace is different too, the platforming part at the beginning is slower and less automated (seems to be easier to miss a jump and fall to the lower route). The level geometry seems a bit different, despite being a blatant reference.

I think it's perfectly fair to reference old levels this way, especially if they are in fact redesigned to fit the new gameplay and don't play exactly the same as the source. The problem comes when 100% of the levels in the game are like this. Kirby Star Allies did that, but it was in a special mode, in the endgame, not the whole game; Mario Galaxy 2 did it too and it was an endgame world as well, not the whole game. If all the cyberspace levels are like this, then... meh. But if done right, it can work... did you see Zelda A Link between Worlds?

I mean, they are considered as special stages, while the main game is supposed to be the open zone, which is completely original, so it's fine I guess... the problem is less that the levels are reused, and more that the open zone (main gameplay) looks terribly boring. Also, levels being rip-off of other games doesn't change that most of the layout consists in mindless boosting and rail grinding, at least according to what has been shown so far. Sky Sanctuary's top route at the beginning is the most fun looking place and that's just some basic platforming on some flat platforms.

[PSI Wind]

I was only saying that the Cyberspace levels, much like the Shrines, are where a large chunk of your standard old style elements were found. I'm not defending the reusing level design, but I am saying that its clear that the focus of the game is not the Cyberspace levels much like how the focus in BotW was not the shrines. The BotW developers certainly are better at making that non focused part still great, but in the game itself, just like Frontiers most likely but less egregious, is that they went with quantity over quality I'd argue due to a heavy reuse of the same shrines but harder.

A lot of information that came out regarding the open zone and combat clearly shows where the teams ambition and drive are focused on. They really were probably mandated to add these in and decided to go with a plot related reason (rumor is that memories are a plot device) to explain in universe why level designs are being re-used where in actuality, they did it to save time and resources to focus on further improving everything else about the game outside those stages over the dev cycle. It also explains probably why these stages except either the first one or maybe a very select few are optional. Its not just player choice, but because they didn't mean for these levels to even be a part of it.

[light-gaia]

7 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Key word Frankenstein. They took pieces of Windmill, switched them around took some out and then glued them all together.

This isn't like GHZ where they just reskinned the level and called it a day. Act II is too long for that, so they trimmed the fat. You can't look at all those similarities and say that there isn't smoke to this fire.

Yes, almost all levels have homing chains, but only Frontiers SS and Unleashed WI2 have that exact same set up leading into theirs.

Yes, almost all Sonic levels have rails with loops and corkscrews, but only Frontiers SS and Unleashed WI2 have the same tri rails, the same awkward launch pads and the same defining features all at once.

Yes almost all Sonic levels have multiple routes, but only Frontiers SS and Unleashed WI2 follow the exact same pattern, with the exact same obstacles, leading up to the exact same positioning of the goal ring.

Get your eyes off the 2D sections and piece together what is there. Its all the same. Both players from both videos use the same quickstep railswitch combo during the dodge section for crying out loud.

Green Hill level is clearly the tutorial. Game Informer has confirmed that the first thing you play when you start the game is a short tutorial in Green Hill before even entering the open-zone. They also confirmed there is another Green Hill level in the game that's different. As far as I'm seeing, the only actual reused level is the tutorial. And it's definitely not the same geometry as Windmill Isle Act 1, as some people said, it's the same "script" though.

I don't see a problem with that. As I said before, I think Windmill Isle Act 1 is the perfect tutorial for the boost gameplay, so it makes sense to me that Frontiers tutorial follows a similar structure.

I don't think this is enough evidence to support the claim that Frontiers reuses level design in every single cyberspace level...

[StaticMania]

Just now, light-gaia said:

I don't think this is enough evidence to support the claim that Frontiers reuses level design in every single cyberspace level...

Only the Downers are saying that.

The cynics are just annoyed at the already existing stuff.

[Iko]

Look at the beginning of this video, the player does the same road as the person who plays the Sky Sanctuary level in Frontiers. It's a very similar layout, but it plays very different, because the Frontiers one was revisited and adjusted for the new gameplay.

I'm not surprised that most people didn't recognize it, and question where the first part of the level is copied from.

[Sega DogTagz]

11 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

 And it's definitely not the same geometry as Windmill Isle Act 1, as some people said, it's the same "script" though.

 

Sure they make a few adjustments here and there. They have too because Unleashed Sonic is significantly faster and the physics engine is likly different, but your hitting the exact same challenges and spectacles.  Its functionally the same level.

 

11 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

I don't think this is enough evidence to support the claim that Frontiers reuses level design in every single cyberspace level...

 

It too soon to claim that much doom, but we've only gotten a long look at 2 levels and they both are pretty familiar.

 

and part of the 2 second look we got of the other GHZ instantly kicked up Deja-vu so its not building a strong case in the other direction either.

[light-gaia]

13 minutes ago, Iko said:

Look at the beginning of this video, the player does the same road as the person who plays the Sky Sanctuary level in Frontiers. It's a very similar layout, but it plays very different, because the Frontiers one was revisited and adjusted for the new gameplay.

I'm not surprised that most people didn't recognize it, and question where the first part of the level is copied from.

The grinding rail leading to the left, it's the only thing I think it's similar. The whole road has a different layout with that upper platforms and stuff.

8 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Sure they make a few adjustments here and there. They have too because Unleashed Sonic is significantly faster and the physics engine is likly different, but your hitting the exact same challenges and spectacles.  Its functionally the same level.

It too soon to claim that much doom, but we've only gotten a long look at 2 levels and they both are pretty familiar.

and part of the 2 second look we got of the other GHZ instantly kicked up Deja-vu so its not building a strong case in the other direction either.

I agree that the Green Hill Zone level is definitely the same layout as Windmill Isle Act 1. Well, let's wait for more gameplay

[Sega DogTagz]

1 minute ago, light-gaia said:

The grinding rail leading to the left, it's the only thing I think it's similar. The whole road has a different layout with that upper platforms and stuff.

Its the same "script". The Frontiers one just has a bit more vertical-ity built in.

[Iko]

10 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

The grinding rail leading to the left, it's the only thing I think it's similar. The whole road has a different layout with that upper platforms and stuff.

It has the same overall structure but proportions and scope are different. The Unleashed version is longer (but faster to traverse due to Sonic being faster), while the one in Frontiers is a bit larger, goes higher too, and you are a bit more in control of the character (in Unleashed you are too, but the game wants you to boost and let Sonic go through it passively). Also, in Unleashed there are fences which block you into the road once you enter it, while in Frontiers the borders are open, meaning that it's easier to fall. Finally, the platform on the left after the big jump, was a secret spot for a medal, and now it has been turned into the main path of the upper road: because of being a secret place, it was originally hidden behind those fences, now it's not only perfectly visible, but the game incentivates the player to try and get there with a jump... if you fail the jump you fall to the lower route.

[light-gaia]

42 minutes ago, Iko said:

It has the same overall structure but proportions and scope are different. The Unleashed version is longer (but faster to traverse due to Sonic being faster), while the one in Frontiers is a bit larger, goes higher too, and you are a bit more in control of the character (in Unleashed you are too, but the game wants you to boost and let Sonic go through it passively). Also, in Unleashed there are fences which block you into the road once you enter it, while in Frontiers the borders are open, meaning that it's easier to fall. Finally, the platform on the left after the big jump, was a secret spot for a medal, and now it has been turned into the main path of the upper road: because of being a secret place, it was originally hidden behind those fences, now it's not only perfectly visible, but the game incentivates the player to try and get there with a jump... if you fail the jump you fall to the lower route.

Yeah, but if the place where there is a medal in the Unleashed stage is now a different path and the proportions of everything is different. I don't see why this would be the same level. I'm still struggling to see all those similarities you guys are pointing out. I mean, of course I see some similarities, I'm not denying them, but both stages having the same level design I don't think so.

After watching the videos a few more times, I think I'm understanding where are you coming from.

However, this structure of a ring after a slope that you can reach a different path if you jump in the right timing is featured in so many boost levels (from both Unleashed and Generations, and even Forces), that I think it's the same situation with the tri-rails section.

[Razule]

This was funny and I wish I thought of it first, but this is an important thing to consider:

 

[Stasis]

3 for 3.

 

What's that above Sonic's shoulder?

[Shaddy Zaphod]

That's the dash meter.

EDIT: New stuff.

Spoiler

 

 

City level. Guy calls it radical highway, even though it definitely isn't radical highway. Entirely 2D, according to this thread:

So it's not the same one as the Nintendo direct footage.

Sonic talking to Amy's cyber-ghost.

Tweet calls it "Sonamy scene" which I am sure is full of shit because Sonic fans are crazy

Eggman cutscene

He's in the cyber city.

Titan boss:

Can't really tell what's going on here. Twitter user says it's the one from the trailer, but I'm not so sure? Also can't tell if Sonic is Super or not.

 

[Blue Blood]

I'm still bewildered by this. Does SEGA think that every game needs to be Generations and/or Mania? Why do they keep doing this? I find it hard to believe that it's just laziness and think it's more likely just a conscious decision to keep including these same locations. 

[Shaddy Zaphod]

I missed a couple things.

Spoiler

Eggman cutscene in motion

Big Coco