Megathread Sonic Frontiers (2022) | MT | General Discussion (DO NOT discuss leaks here please)

[Shiny Gems]

35 minutes ago, ZinogreVolt said:

As it turns out, the Drift is in Sonic Frontiers. But it's now a context-sensitive action like the Quick Step and Drift are in Colors

Pretty much. They are the supplement and not the main dish (e.g, the open zones) so I'm personally fine with them as they are. Especially if there are a lot of them.

Interesting about the Drift. I like seeing it return, if functioning as it did in Colors, if I read that right.

[ZinogreVolt]

30 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Did breath of the wild ever reuse a puzzle room from a past game?

Zelda's pretty noteworthy for the series re-using dungeon themes (if not lifting old dungeons wholesale from previous games), as well as lifting old puzzles and re-using them for newer games. BotW is somewhat different in that, by the nature of its physics systems, there are inherently now multiple ways to solve them. But it did in fact have puzzles from old games, some of the ones involving fire are directly lifted from Ocarina of Time in particular. Given the sheer totality of content though, you're not likely to notice unless you're an eagle-eyed fan.

[Wraith]

3 minutes ago, ZinogreVolt said:

(if not lifting old dungeons wholesale from previous games),

When did this happen?

[ZinogreVolt]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

When did this happen?

Oracle of Seasons took some dungeons and bosses from Zelda 1, I believe some things from Link's Awakening also snuck into both Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons.

Whether that is defensible to Sonic Frontiers or not is one thing, but I don't think the practice is so uncommon that it makes Frontiers look jarring.

[Wraith]

4 minutes ago, ZinogreVolt said:

Oracle of Seasons took some dungeons and bosses from Zelda 1, I believe some things from Link's Awakening also snuck into both Oracle of Ages and Oracle of Seasons.

Whether that is defensible to Sonic Frontiers or not is one thing, but I don't think the practice is so uncommon that it makes Frontiers look jarring.

If it happened once in 35 years in a game that wasn't developed by Nintendo, that means it doesn't happen very often..
 

 

8 minutes ago, ZinogreVolt said:

 But it did in fact have puzzles from old games, some of the ones involving fire are directly lifted from Ocarina of Time in particular.

Where

[ZinogreVolt]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

If it happened once in 35 years in a game that wasn't developed by Nintendo, that means it doesn't happen very often..
 

Where

The most recent Monster Hunter game brought back several old levels with largely the same layouts, Resident Evil has done the same thing a good number of times, Kirby has as well. It really isn't that uncommon.

I can't remember the specific shrine that lifts this puzzle, but I believe it's somewhere in the Death Mountain region:

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

57 minutes ago, ZinogreVolt said:

As it turns out, the Drift is in Sonic Frontiers. But it's now a context-sensitive action like the Quick Step and Drift are in Colors

Pretty much. They are the supplement and not the main dish (e.g, the open zones) so I'm personally fine with them as they are. Especially if there are a lot of them.

Hmmm. They even seem to have brought back air tricks. I definitely like the apparent depth of the control scheme for this game, from the parkour system, to the fun-looking combat, and whatnot.

[Diogenes]

Lighting torches is less of a puzzle and more of a mechanic; individual puzzles test you lighting them under different circumstances. The only thing I can think of in BotW that's anything like OoT's Shadow Temple entrance puzzle is one point where you have to use a spin attack to light a bunch of torches at once. But that's a different puzzle, because you have different mechanics to work with; in OoT it's more of an item check, you just need to find and cast Din's Fire, but in BotW you don't have a room-wide fire spell, just a lit torch, and you need to figure out how you can apply that to several torches at once with your existing abilities.

It's really not at all comparable to straight up reusing a chunk of level design in a game that plays largely the same.

[light-gaia]

Kirby recycles level theming and bosses all the time. If Sonic was Kirby, every single Sonic game would have the same level theming but with a few twists here and there. Don't even let me get started on Mario. The New Super Mario Bros series reuses assets, music and level design, they all feel like the same game. Pokémon is another example, every single new entry is the same game with some new gimmick.

Now, talking about Frontiers, I don't see a problem with Sonic Team reusing a tutorial level layout. I think it's a smart move because Unleashed tutorial was perfect to teach the player the basics of the boost gameplay. And I don't think Sky Sanctuary is recycling old levels layouts.

And also don't think the linearity is an issue, as long as the levels have enough obstacles and challenges. Sonic Unleashed daytime stages were very linear. They feel less linear because of the aesthetics. Frontiers' Green Hill look more artificial, and that makes the linearity more obvious. Sonic Unleashed's stages were more linear than Generations', but I think they are more fun.

The problem with Sonic Forces wasn't the linearity, in my opinion, it was that every single level in the game feel like a tutorial level. We don't know if that's the case with Frontiers. Sonic Unleashed had the same kind of basic level design in the beginning of the game and later on we have things like Jungle Joyride, Cool Edge, etc.

[Wraith]

13 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

Kirby recycles level theming and bosses all the time. If Sonic was Kirby, every single Sonic game would have the same level theming but with a few twists here and there. Don't even let me get started on Mario. The New Super Mario Bros series reuses assets, music and level design, they all feel like the same game. Pokémon is another example, every single new entry is the same game with some new gimmick.

Name an example in any of those games where they straight up reuse a chunk of level from an old game in a new one. I mean, an ENTIRE chunk of level. Level design. Assets. The whole thing.

 

 

44 minutes ago, ZinogreVolt said:

Resident Evil has done the same thing a good number of times, Kirby has as well. It really isn't that uncommon.

 

When?

[ZinogreVolt]

4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Name an example in any of those games where they straight up reuse a chunk of level from an old game in a new one. I mean, an ENTIRE chunk of level. Level design. Assets. The whole thing.

 

When?

Resident Evil 3 (both the original and the 2020 remake) recycle the Raccoon Police Department, down to using the exact same assets and music. Resident Evil Zero also lifts areas from Resident Evil Remake and RE2.

[light-gaia]

4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Name an example in any of those games where they straight up reuse a chunk of level from an old game in a new one. I mean, an ENTIRE chunk of level. Level design. Assets. The whole thing.

This thread is about Sonic Frontiers, not about Nintendo games. I don't think it makes sense to derail the thread. Just play New Super Mario Bros series and see for yourself the amount of reused assets, aesthetics and songs

[Zaysho]

1 minute ago, light-gaia said:

This thread is about Sonic Frontiers, not about Nintendo games. I don't think it makes sense to derail the thread. Just play New Super Mario Bros series and see for yourself the amount of reused assets, aesthetics and songs

You brought up this argument to defend Sonic Frontiers.

[Wraith]

7 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

This thread is about Sonic Frontiers, not about Nintendo games. I don't think it makes sense to derail the thread. Just play New Super Mario Bros series and see for yourself the amount of reused assets, aesthetics and songs

They don't reuse any music and each game recreates the assets from scratch.

Add onto that fact that I've been talking about the layout of the levels from point one. Across the entire four game long NSMB series they've never done that. It seems like the Boost series might be the cheaper of the two after all which doesn't come as a shock to me. Y'know, since I've played both.

 

10 minutes ago, ZinogreVolt said:

Resident Evil 3 (both the original and the 2020 remake) recycle the Raccoon Police Department, down to using the exact same assets and music. Resident Evil Zero also lifts areas from Resident Evil Remake and RE2.

It took us this long to find a recent example that actually fits the criteria. Can you still honestly say this practice is common?

[McGroose]

16 minutes ago, Wraith said:

Name an example in any of those games where they straight up reuse a chunk of level from an old game in a new one. I mean, an ENTIRE chunk of level. Level design. Assets. The whole thing.

Sonic Mania

Spoiler

I'm joking please don't hurt me

Anyway the level design so far is actually at least slightly disappointing. Whether or not they knowingly reused literally the entire level design or just rolled a perfect 20 and super conveniently remade the unleashed levels from scratch while forgetting that game exists, this shows Sega is just running out of ideas for good boost level design. It probably isn't even that hard to come up with, but Sega apparently just sucks at it now.

The level design looks better than Colors or Forces, but it really does feel like a straight line with the occasional jump despite the upper and lower pathways being available. 
It is possible that these are the earliest levels you can play and that they are unlocked only on the first island, with the harder more creative levels being accessible later, but I'm not necessarily going to hold my breath on that.

[light-gaia]

2 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

You brought up this argument to defend Sonic Frontiers.

I did not start this discussion, when I entered the thread, everyone was already talking about Zelda and other franchises reusing stuff. And I tried to change the discussion back to Frontiers

[Sega DogTagz]

43 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

 And I don't think Sky Sanctuary is recycling old levels layouts.
 

It does. There is more than a little of Windmill Isle Act II in there. They chopped it up and switched the order of a segment or two, but it is most certainly built off of Unleashed. I've speed run that level enough times that my muscle memory was triggered on sight.

It does lead me to think that this GHZ and SS level are early cyberspace levels, as they are based on the first 2 levels of Unleashed, but if that was the case, I would full tilt go up and punch the guy who thought it would be a good idea to demo these two for the general public's first exposure. That guy needs to be demoted. And the media relations guy who let this slip thru the cracks deserves a red card in the box. Its gone and created more questions that answers and cratered hype worse than a bad level would have.... and this is coming from someone who considers Unleashed his favorite game no less.

Are all the levels copy-paste? Is the reason why this is rumored to have so many levels because they are going to piecemeal Unleashed layouts to us? Did they really not expect us to care? Can Kishimoto find another way to kick DogTagz in the balls?

 

Ugh.

 

The only thing worse than this is watching the scores of twitter and youtube peeps bemoan Forces level design on a game that quite literally Cntl+V from Unleashed. I reiterate my position from the early hands on impressions that the vast majority of people have no idea what they are talking about and would not be able to tell the difference between Unleashed, Colors, Forces game-play if their life depended on it.

[Zaysho]

13 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

I did not start this discussion, when I entered the thread, everyone was already talking about Zelda and other franchises reusing stuff. And I tried to change the discussion back to Frontiers

Yes, it's called drawing comparisons. Frontiers isn't out yet and when you have videos floating around that look like Sega literally reskinned an old level by vomiting checkerboards all over it, it's fair to call it out and think about why this looks bad compared to how other series revisit themes and tropes and approach things like asset reuse, which isn't exclusive to Sonic and no one ever argued that (never mind the things you brought up are all things people who actually like and play those games have called out as being stale, especially New Super Mario Bros.). You were spoken to about this same behavior before months ago where you appear to straight up not read what people are saying to make these poor defenses.

[Sonicka]

16 minutes ago, McGroose said:

Sonic Mania

  Reveal hidden contents

I'm joking please don't hurt me

 

Actually, I think Mania is a pretty fair comparison. That's a celebratory title of reused zones and ideas all over. The same could be said for elements of Generations as well. Wasn't Frontiers supposed to be an anniversary title before covid and the delays? So would it not make sense for them to do something like this?

I think at the end of the day the Sonic Community tends to be more highly strung on wanting this series to succeed (that's not a slight, I'm as much a part of that factor as well), so the cyberspace levels are of course going to be viewed with more scrutiny, and especially given the main open-zone areas of gameplay have divided opinion. If you are looking to Cyberspace to satisfy or fulfil a particular gameplay desire, then it's understandable that you'd be disappointed.

Really, you could view Cyberspace as a cute homage or a lazy effort on Sonic Teams part - neither opinion is invalid really depending on your stance. 

 

[Shiny Gems]

Just now, Son-icka said:

Actually, I think Mania is a pretty fair comparison. That's a celebratory title of reused zones and ideas all over. The same could be said for elements of Generations as well. Wasn't Frontiers supposed to be an anniversary title before covid and the delays? So would it not make sense for them to do something like this?

I think at the end of the day the Sonic Community tends to be more highly strung on wanting this series to succeed (that's not a slight, I'm as much a part of that factor as well), so the cyberspace levels are of course going to be viewed with more scrutiny, and especially given the main open-zone areas of gameplay have divided opinion. If you are looking to Cyberspace to satisfy or fulfil a particular gameplay desire, then it's understandable that you'd be disappointed.

Really, you could view Cyberspace as a cute homage or a lazy effort on Sonic Teams part - neither opinion is invalid really depending on your stance. 

 

I agree. Though I am not sure if Frontiers being an anniversary game would actually go so far as a defense for the game. Maybe if there was another Sonic game in between anniversary games, would that help? We have not had one of those in a while.

[ZinogreVolt]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

It took us this long to find a recent example that actually fits the criteria. Can you still honestly say this practice is common?

Here's some examples, then:

- Pokemon XY (2013): Santalune Forest has the exact same layout as Viridian Forest from RGBY, down to sharing almost the same pool of encounterable Pokemon.

- Half of Pokemon Gold/Silver/Crystal and Pokemon Heart Gold/Soul Silver are comprised of exact locations, maps, dungeons, and music from Pokemon RGBY
- Kirby Super Star (1996) and Super Star Ultra (2008) re-use the same bosses and levels as Kirby's Dream Land. Super Star Ultra does this a second time by using Dream Land's Extra Mode as a base for its extra content.

- Kirby's Adventure (1993) and Kirby's Nightmare in Dreamland (2002) lift layouts and assets from Kirby's Dreamland for Stage 6 of Rainbow Resort

- Kirby Star Allies (2018) uses layouts taken directly from an assortment of past games

- Nearly half of the maps in Monster Hunter Rise (2021) and Sunbreak (2022) are maps pulled from Monster Hunter Tri, Tri Ultimate, and Monster Hunter 2.

- Dragon Quest XI S (2019) re-uses music, assets, and exact map design from every single past numbered Dragon Quest game for its Tickington quests, which makes up a significant portion of playtime. Dragon Quest III also lifted the game world of the original Dragon Quest as well.

- Atelier Ryza 2: Lost Legends and the Secret Fairy (2020) lifts a large chunk of maps from the original Atelier Ryza game, with the same assets and music too.

I haven't played every game under the sun, but I've played enough to know for certain that what Frontiers is doing isn't some outlandish practice.

 

 

[Sega DogTagz]

3 minutes ago, Son-icka said:

Really, you could view Cyberspace as a cute homage or a lazy effort on Sonic Teams part - neither opinion is invalid really depending on your stance. 

 

Hidden Island 16 in Sonic Rush adventure is a cute homage to level layout.

How you twist Windmill Isle photoshoped in Sky Sanctuary and GHZ colors into a cute homage is beyond me.

[Diogenes]

Reusing bits of level design might've come off as a cute little reference if the series hadn't been marinating in nostalgic references to excess already. Given the course of the series it just comes off as Sonic Team being lazier and more shameless than ever.

[Razule]

16 minutes ago, Son-icka said:

Actually, I think Mania is a pretty fair comparison. That's a celebratory title of reused zones and ideas all over. The same could be said for elements of Generations as well. Wasn't Frontiers supposed to be an anniversary title before covid and the delays? So would it not make sense for them to do something like this?

Man, this is an anniversary game, Forces was, Lost World wasn't but it felt like one, and Generations was. Games take longer to make now, so at this rate, every main-series game is going to be an anniversary game. How long is the franchise going to celebrate itself? It's like after Generations, the franchise is in permanent anniversary mode. 

If fans weren't already burnt out on old levels, it wouldn't be so bad. But it's been a decade and change counting Sonic 4.

[light-gaia]

6 minutes ago, Sega DogTagz said:

It does. There is more than a little of Windmill Isle Act II in there. They chopped it up and switched the order of a segment or two, but it is most certainly built off of Unleashed. I've speed run that level enough times that my muscle memory was triggered on sight.

It does lead me to think that this GHZ and SS level are early cyberspace levels, as they are based on the first 2 levels of Unleashed, but if that was the case, I would full tilt go up and punch the guy who thought it would be a good idea to demo these two for the general public's first exposure. That guy needs to be demoted. And the media relations guy who let this slip thru the cracks deserves a red card in the box. Its gone and created more questions that answers and cratered hype worse than a bad level would have.... and this is coming from someone who considers Unleashed his favorite game no less.

Are all the levels copy-paste? Is the reason why this is rumored to have so many levels because they are going to piecemeal Unleashed layouts to us? Did they really not expect us to care? Can Kishimoto find another way to kick DogTagz in the balls?

Ugh.

The only thing worse than this is watching the scores of twitter and youtube peeps bemoan Forces level design on a game that quite literally Cntl+V from Unleashed. I reiterate my position from the early hands on impressions that the vast majority of people have no idea what they are talking about and would not be able to tell the difference between Unleashed, Colors, Forces game-play if their life depended on it.

SS doesn't look like Windmill Isle Act 2 at all. Only that part where this is a grinding rail to the left, but I don't think it's even possible to say that's a similarity.

Let's just see the whole Windmill Isle Act 2 gameplay:

It's definitely not similar.

4 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

Yes, it's called drawing comparisons. Frontiers isn't out yet and when you have videos floating around that look like Sega literally reskinned an old level by vomiting checkerboards all over it, it's fair to call it out and think about why this looks bad compared to how other series revisit themes and tropes and approach things like asset reuse, which isn't exclusive to Sonic and no one ever argued that (never mind the things you brought up are all things people who actually like and play those games have called out as being stale, especially New Super Mario Bros.). You were spoken to about this same behavior before months ago where you appear to straight up not read what people are saying to make these poor defenses.

I've played all New Super Mario series and I have all of them. They reuse music, and definitely reuse assets. New Super Mario Bros 2, for example, clearly reuse some assets from New Super Mario Bros Wii. They also reuse animations. I didn't want to keep talking about that because we would spend the least two pages talking about other games. But if that's okay...

I'm pretty sure I watched a youtube review a long time ago that even pointed out some of the reused songs on New Super Mario Bros U. I'll search as post here if }I find. However, look at this Gamefaqs thread where people are complaining about the reused songs in New Super Mario Bros U.