Megathread Sonic Origins | MT | General Discussion

[light-gaia]

17 minutes ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

I'm not even talking about "beating" them. I'm talking about getting good enough at them to have fun with them.

Like, I technically beat Sonic 1 and 2 on Mega Collection by saving every 5 steps. That wasn't fun and I sure as shit didn't get good at them. 

Maybe you'll have a better time if you don't worry that much at being good at the games. I only get "good" at classic Sonic after I saw a lot of game over screens.

I still think Sonic 3&K has the best level design of the classic series (including Mania). It's a shame we don't have the original music in this collection.

[Dr. Detective]

2 minutes ago, light-gaia said:

Maybe you'll have a better time if you don't worry that much at being good at the games. I only get "good" at classic Sonic after I saw a lot of game over screens.

I mean, I've seen plenty of those as well and I don't feel any better at them...

I do believe at this point that "fun" for me when it comes to the Classics is only going to come with being good enough at them. Not an expert. Just good enough. Even that, however, is going to take a lot of trial and error so when I get around to giving Origins a chance, my Sundays are going to be high blood pressure game time. 

That won't be for a long time though. At the moment, I hope the rest of you try and have fun with what you've got.

[Natie]

My "grew up on games i couldnt get past two levels on" ass is about to get out of this rocking chair and complain about kids these days and call Sonic 1 one of the easiest genesis games.

[Razule]

1 hour ago, Dr. Detective Mike said:

Like, I technically beat Sonic 1 and 2 on Mega Collection by saving every 5 steps. That wasn't fun and I sure as shit didn't get good at them. 

Huh, that's how I beat the Sonic 3 special stages on Ultimate Genesis Collection. I wish games still saved like that..

[StaticMania]

24 minutes ago, Natie said:

...and call Sonic 1 one of the easiest genesis games.

Due to the more rudimentary level design, it...kind of is.

 

[Darkvizardberrytan]

I myself plan to wait out for the next big steam sale in hopes this game drops down a bit. Hoping for about $20 dollars if lucky maybe. And Sonic 1 is honestly a tad harder than other early sonic games but only certain stages. And certain things such as spikes being insta death and anything past spring yard zone being pretty stressful.

[Razule]

Why on Gaia's green Sonic's World does Tails still lose rings whenever he gets hit in the Special stages..? They never took that out of Taxman remasters?

[Blue Blood]

As nice as the animated cutscenes are, they really don't add much. They're 30 seconds on average, with the S2 outro being only 12 seconds long. It shows the Death Egg crashing into Angel Island... which you'd have already just watched in the sprite animation mere seconds before anyway.

And the S3K cutscenes are really strange. The intro shows Eggman crashing directly into Hidden Palace, which doesn't make a great deal of sense narratively. It would have to mean that Eggman "found" the Master Emerald right at the start but ignored it to then move the Death Egg to Launch Base where a failed launch sent it crashing directly into Hidden Palace again only this time he stole the Master Emerald. It's weird, and kind of contradicts what we should know about the story for 3K. The story written in the Japanese manuals is a lot more in-depth than what is presented in these cutscenes, and I feel that if the cutscenes were longer and/or more numerous then they could be more accurate. 

Then you you have Knuckles' 3K story which re-uses the exact same cutscenes. I'm willing to let the intro cutscene slide, because it plays before the title screen. But the outro cutscene shows Eggman and his Doomsday robot crashed into the ocean. Narratively, that outro cutscene should have happened before Knuckles' story. The whole thing shouldn't play. Then there's also the fact that Knuckles story does have a sprite based intro cutscene as well, but it's the same one from SK and its set in Mushroom Hill. We know for a fact that Taxman and Stealth's original 3K remake pitch from 10 years ago moved this cutscene to Angel Island, so I can only guess that SEGA/Sonic Team mandated it was kept in MHZ for consistency with the original? It feels so janky. 

[JezMM]

1 hour ago, Blue Blood said:

As nice as the animated cutscenes are, they really don't add much. They're 30 seconds on average, with the S2 outro being only 12 seconds long. It shows the Death Egg crashing into Angel Island... which you'd have already just watched in the sprite animation mere seconds before anyway.

And the S3K cutscenes are really strange. The intro shows Eggman crashing directly into Hidden Palace, which doesn't make a great deal of sense narratively. It would have to mean that Eggman "found" the Master Emerald right at the start but ignored it to then move the Death Egg to Launch Base where a failed launch sent it crashing directly into Hidden Palace again only this time he stole the Master Emerald. It's weird, and kind of contradicts what we should know about the story for 3K. The story written in the Japanese manuals is a lot more in-depth than what is presented in these cutscenes, and I feel that if the cutscenes were longer and/or more numerous then they could be more accurate. 

Then you you have Knuckles' 3K story which re-uses the exact same cutscenes. I'm willing to let the intro cutscene slide, because it plays before the title screen. But the outro cutscene shows Eggman and his Doomsday robot crashed into the ocean. Narratively, that outro cutscene should have happened before Knuckles' story. The whole thing shouldn't play. Then there's also the fact that Knuckles story does have a sprite based intro cutscene as well, but it's the same one from SK and its set in Mushroom Hill. We know for a fact that Taxman and Stealth's original 3K remake pitch from 10 years ago moved this cutscene to Angel Island, so I can only guess that SEGA/Sonic Team mandated it was kept in MHZ for consistency with the original? It feels so janky. 

Dang, playing the S3&K ending cut-scene after Knuckles' story is one of those things where like... it could totally be an oversight, it could also be "Well if the player chooses Knuckles they might get confused as to why there's no animated ending cut-scene".

It's a shame they couldn't have cleared this up with a little text prompt like:

"Knuckles' adventure in Sonic 3 & Knuckles is a new story that takes place after the events of Sonic & Tails' adventure - it's recommended to finish the game as "Sonic", "Tails" or "Sonic & Tails" first!"  A - Continue as Knuckles / B - Go Back 

Could always only display the prompt once to not interrupt future playthroughs.

It's one of those little details that really isn't obvious for most players too, that Knuckles' story does not take place at the same time, even the game's original english manual left this vague. What a missed opportunity to clear it up.

I haven't played Knuckles' story in Origins yet - they at least fixed Eggman showing up in Flying Battery, I assume?

[Blue Blood]

13 minutes ago, JezMM said:

 

I haven't played Knuckles' story in Origins yet - they at least fixed Eggman showing up in Flying Battery, I assume?

Yes, they fixed that a several other quirks. I think that if you take Knuckles' secret route in LRZ1 (the one that connects to Sonic's route), it no longer has the Death Egg in the background. In the original S3K you didn't see the Death Egg on his normal route but due to an oversight you could see it in the secret route. Its good attention to detail to see that fixed.

But on the flip side, you can no longer access Sonic's MGZ2 boss with Knuckles, as you automatically fall off the spinning the spinning top if you take it towards the Relief. Similarly, you can't take Sonic up towards Knuckles version of the boss as he'll automatically fall off the spinning top too. It's swings and roundabouts. 

That said, I'm not sure if it's legitimately possible to do other tricks, like taking Knuckles to Sonic AIZ1 boss and through his Act 2. I know it works correctly if you modify the game to change co-ordinates or use debug, but I'm not sure if you can get there without doing such. 

[JezMM]

I can only find a video of accessing Sonic's boss using a wall clip.  Was the spinning top method hard to discover or could a player reasonably do it by accident?  With Tails showing up to help Knuckles and all, I can see it being deemed as unintentional behaviour in need of removal (I laughed when I saw the "duck under the Chemical Plant boss attack to not take damage" bug doesn't work in Origins, but I totally respect the removal).

If it's accessible via debug mode still, I wouldn't consider it an unreasonable change.  If it's completely impossible for Knuckles to fight that boss though then yeah that's pretty annoying and a step too far.

[Blue Blood]

The spinning top method was close to impossible to discover accidentally, because you had to do the process 3 full times separately to destroy the Relief. . That involved manouvering between enemies, tar pits and spikes that would make you fall off, and back-tracking all the way to the spinning top in the first place. You're intended to lose the spinning top long before you reach the Relief anyway. It was a neat secret before. 

My only issue is that you lose the spinning top for no clear reason. The game breaks its own rules to make you fall off. Normally you can run on those things until you either hit an obstacle or jump off manually, but now there are a couple of places that make you fall off without any visual indication as to why. It's not an unreasonable change, but it wasn't necessary because of how awkward it was to pull off and the solution that they went with is a bit sloppy. 

[TheOcelot]

It's a shame you can't play with Knuckles & Tails (AI) in Origins' 3K (I'm surprised Headcannon didn't add this) and disappointing this option's not in S1 even though you can play this formation in the mobile remaster via level select. 

Stupid they don't give the option to play with Sonic & Tails (AI) in Origins' S1 without the need to use debug mode like you could in the remaster.

Something I also find strange is they showed brief footage of Tails in S1 & Knuckles in S2 in Classic Mode in one of the trailers (you can even select Knuckles or Tails letterbox wallpapers) and yet you can't select an option to play as them in Classic Mode via the tile screen, you have to use level select and the game never explains how to access level select.

For CD in Classic Mode the only way to unlock Tails is to play time-attack, unlock stage select then input the required code to play as him.

[A super No.1 washedupgamer]

They missed the opportunity to add the most important mode of all, 

Knuckles & knuckles mode.

[Sonicka]

Ok,  so now I've had some more time to play with this beast I can articulate my thoughts a bit better.

Starting with the negative:

- I think it's definitely priced waaaaay to high (need's to be dropped at least by a tenner)

- The DLC add on content is certainly not worth the extra asking value by any means - it is a meagre selection of extra cosmetic offings that add nothing to the gameplay, with the only real value being that it unlocks certain modes earlier (which I'd argue takes a fun unlockable goal out of the game). 

- Pan and Zoom on the Island Map screen? You can't even rotate these in 3D? Sorry... are you actually taking the piss here Sonic Team?

- Whilst the overworld island menu's are real pretty to look at, the menu UI system is so cluttered and unreasonably confusing to navigate to find the mode you want.  It's not abundently clear on what the the save system is and how it functions (apart from Sonic 3&K). They should have taken a universal approach for the entire game for this.

- The optional bonus abilities should be available freely to toggle on and off, instead these are gatelocked behind cheat codes in each individual games menus within the game. It doesn't need to be that authentic an experience. 

- The S3 replacement music... my god Jun I'm sorry, but no.

- Cannot separate Sonic and Knuckles experience from Sonic 3... wut. 

- No Rom inclusions for the OG titles for 4:3 mode. I understand why they did it this way... but even as an extra it would have gone a long way to show the newer players how different these games actually are. 

- Where is; Sonic 3D Flickies Island, Mean Bean Machine, Sonic Spinball, Knuckles Chaotix and the 12 game Gear games? Come on SEGA - this is nearly £40 you're changing here. Add the emulations in at least. 


However, on the positive: 

+ The best versions of these games are finally (legitimately) available to play on my TV and in Handheld! AT LAST!

+ Sonic 3 & Knuckles!!!!!!! Remastered AT LAST.

+ The Drop Dash - I take back what I said a few pages ago about the drop dash being an insignificant addition... because I used this ability so much more in this collection game than I ever did in Sonic Mania. I think this is probably because I know these levels beat for beat so could put the drop dash to good use in respective places. It a joy. The implementation of it in S1, 2 and CD is a little quirky for sure, but honestly it really doesn't matter how they did it as it functions the same and to the standard I'd expect. 

+ The game gave me new appreciation of Sonic CD. I know this has been available previously - but I've always felt this game to be such an antithisis of what Sonic is about. Hated it on rom, really disliked it in the Gems Collection release, and found it to be a little more approachable on Mobile. But now... I think I GET IT - what the game is about, why it's garnered it's own cult of fans who praise it's quirkiness, and the interesting approach the team took to this title. Gave me chills when I completed this during story mode with all the Time Stones (hate the special stages though - terrible stuff). 

+ Story Mode - what a wonderful idea. The cutscenes also add just a little layer of depth to proceedings - it's the kind of thing that as a kid you'd dream up in your head when you try to canon stitch and animate everything together. Wonderful. 

+ Mirror Mode - I did not realise how simple flipping of the screen could be such a game changer. This is a real mess with your head sort of thing - especially if you know these levels inside out. I know nothing anymore and it's wonderful. 

+ Mission Mode - These are a little on the short side... but actually are pretty inventive. I had a lot more fun with this than I thought I would. Grey block level design placements aside - this is a sweet extra and adds value for money. 

+ New Blue Spheres - As a cheeky little extra to play makes me appreciate the work that Headcannon put in to create this. It gives this package some more replayabilty and the new sphere types are EVIL.

+ Museum - Whilst there is a lot to be desired... there are some really cool extras in here in the Museum, from unseen artwork, to all of Mania Adventures and even some excerpts from the Sonic 30th Symphony. Real nice touch.   


I'm going to go out on a limb and express my view that this really is the definitive way to play these games officially. Ultimately, despite some shortfalls... the best versions of the games are all here and (save for a few insignificant bugs aside) they work masterfully and perform so much better than I remember them.

Is it a truncated package? Yes. It's a broken collection of ports? No. 
 

5 hours ago, Blue Blood said:

Then there's also the fact that Knuckles story does have a sprite based intro cutscene as well, but it's the same one from SK and its set in Mushroom Hill. We know for a fact that Taxman and Stealth's original 3K remake pitch from 10 years ago moved this cutscene to Angel Island, so I can only guess that SEGA/Sonic Team mandated it was kept in MHZ for consistency with the original? It feels so janky. 

Now this I do find super weird. Especially considering that for the original lock on of S3&K had Knuckles opening animatic moved to Angel Island for his intro anyway - so no real work was even needed to be done here by Taxman/Stealth. It's a real bizarre choice considering S&K isn't in the collection to play seperately. I don't get why they opted to present it this way.

 

[Blue Blood]

50 minutes ago, Son-icka said:

Now this I do find super weird. Especially considering that for the original lock on of S3&K had Knuckles opening animatic moved to Angel Island for his intro anyway - so no real work was even needed to be done here by Taxman/Stealth. It's a real bizarre choice considering S&K isn't in the collection to play seperately. I don't get why they opted to present it this way.

The opening cutscene for Knuckles' story only ever played in SK alone, where it was set in Mushroom Hill. There was no opening cutscene for Knuckles in S3K. 

[StaticMania]

Sonic 3 Complete...

[Sonicka]

24 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

The opening cutscene for Knuckles' story only ever played in SK alone, where it was set in Mushroom Hill. There was no opening cutscene for Knuckles in S3K. 

There definitely was a cutscene in Angel Island Zone for Knuckles when playing his story via S3&K.

S&K alone... yeah that's another matter of course. 

[Rabid-Coot]

S3K no cutscene.

 

Sonic 3 Complete Angel Island cutscene.

 

[JezMM]

12 minutes ago, Son-icka said:

There definitely was a cutscene in Angel Island Zone for Knuckles when playing his story via S3&K.

S&K alone... yeah that's another matter of course. 

I really thought this too but check out some longplay footage, there isn't!  Sonic 3 Complete (and possibly A.I.R., dunno for sure) move the cut-scene to Angel Island which might be causing some false memories.

[Sonicka]

1 minute ago, JezMM said:

I really thought this too but check out some longplay footage, there isn't!  Sonic 3 Complete (and possibly A.I.R., dunno for sure) move the cut-scene to Angel Island which might be causing some false memories.

O.M.G. You know what - I genuinely thought Sonic 3 Complete was just another name for Sonic 3 & Knuckles - I didn't realise it was a rom hack. 

I think false memories is right, I really feel like I remember this so perfectly. I wonder if also I'm cross pollenating the Good Ending where knuckles waves them off on Angel Island. 

Ok, In that case I retract my statement (and confidence to remember things properly)  @Blue Blood apologies! 

[light-gaia]

3 hours ago, Son-icka said:

Ok,  so now I've had some more time to play with this beast I can articulate my thoughts a bit better.

Starting with the negative:

- I think it's definitely priced waaaaay to high (need's to be dropped at least by a tenner)

- The DLC add on content is certainly not worth the extra asking value by any means - it is a meagre selection of extra cosmetic offings that add nothing to the gameplay, with the only real value being that it unlocks certain modes earlier (which I'd argue takes a fun unlockable goal out of the game). 

- Pan and Zoom on the Island Map screen? You can't even rotate these in 3D? Sorry... are you actually taking the piss here Sonic Team?

- Whilst the overworld island menu's are real pretty to look at, the menu UI system is so cluttered and unreasonably confusing to navigate to find the mode you want.  It's not abundently clear on what the the save system is and how it functions (apart from Sonic 3&K). They should have taken a universal approach for the entire game for this.

- The optional bonus abilities should be available freely to toggle on and off, instead these are gatelocked behind cheat codes in each individual games menus within the game. It doesn't need to be that authentic an experience. 

- The S3 replacement music... my god Jun I'm sorry, but no.

- Cannot separate Sonic and Knuckles experience from Sonic 3... wut. 

- No Rom inclusions for the OG titles for 4:3 mode. I understand why they did it this way... but even as an extra it would have gone a long way to show the newer players how different these games actually are. 

- Where is; Sonic 3D Flickies Island, Mean Bean Machine, Sonic Spinball, Knuckles Chaotix and the 12 game Gear games? Come on SEGA - this is nearly £40 you're changing here. Add the emulations in at least. 


However, on the positive: 

+ The best versions of these games are finally (legitimately) available to play on my TV and in Handheld! AT LAST!

+ Sonic 3 & Knuckles!!!!!!! Remastered AT LAST.

+ The Drop Dash - I take back what I said a few pages ago about the drop dash being an insignificant addition... because I used this ability so much more in this collection game than I ever did in Sonic Mania. I think this is probably because I know these levels beat for beat so could put the drop dash to good use in respective places. It a joy. The implementation of it in S1, 2 and CD is a little quirky for sure, but honestly it really doesn't matter how they did it as it functions the same and to the standard I'd expect. 

+ The game gave me new appreciation of Sonic CD. I know this has been available previously - but I've always felt this game to be such an antithisis of what Sonic is about. Hated it on rom, really disliked it in the Gems Collection release, and found it to be a little more approachable on Mobile. But now... I think I GET IT - what the game is about, why it's garnered it's own cult of fans who praise it's quirkiness, and the interesting approach the team took to this title. Gave me chills when I completed this during story mode with all the Time Stones (hate the special stages though - terrible stuff). 

+ Story Mode - what a wonderful idea. The cutscenes also add just a little layer of depth to proceedings - it's the kind of thing that as a kid you'd dream up in your head when you try to canon stitch and animate everything together. Wonderful. 

+ Mirror Mode - I did not realise how simple flipping of the screen could be such a game changer. This is a real mess with your head sort of thing - especially if you know these levels inside out. I know nothing anymore and it's wonderful. 

+ Mission Mode - These are a little on the short side... but actually are pretty inventive. I had a lot more fun with this than I thought I would. Grey block level design placements aside - this is a sweet extra and adds value for money. 

+ New Blue Spheres - As a cheeky little extra to play makes me appreciate the work that Headcannon put in to create this. It gives this package some more replayabilty and the new sphere types are EVIL.

+ Museum - Whilst there is a lot to be desired... there are some really cool extras in here in the Museum, from unseen artwork, to all of Mania Adventures and even some excerpts from the Sonic 30th Symphony. Real nice touch.   


I'm going to go out on a limb and express my view that this really is the definitive way to play these games officially. Ultimately, despite some shortfalls... the best versions of the games are all here and (save for a few insignificant bugs aside) they work masterfully and perform so much better than I remember them.

Is it a truncated package? Yes. It's a broken collection of ports? No. 
 

Now this I do find super weird. Especially considering that for the original lock on of S3&K had Knuckles opening animatic moved to Angel Island for his intro anyway - so no real work was even needed to be done here by Taxman/Stealth. It's a real bizarre choice considering S&K isn't in the collection to play seperately. I don't get why they opted to present it this way.

I don't understand why Jun Senoue can't write good classic Sonic music nowadays. He wrote Sonic 3D Blast Genesis OST and it was so good. But Sonic 4 OST and these Sonic Origins remixes are really bad.

[Indigo Rush]

He didn't write the Origins tracks aside from the Super theme, he was tasked with programming the beta music into Genesis hardware which he didn't compose. The issue isn't musical talent, it's like asking a sketch artist to vectorize an image on a computer; that's a different skillet that he's clearly rusty on.

[Conando]

15 hours ago, Natie said:

My "grew up on games i couldnt get past two levels on" ass is about to get out of this rocking chair and complain about kids these days and call Sonic 1 one of the easiest genesis games.

By comparison? Yes, definitely. This was the era of publishers forcing the devs to make games harder so they couldn't be beaten in a rental period.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Platinumed Sonic Origins yesterday. Thankfully, either the PS5 version is far more stable than other versions, or I got ridiculously lucky, because I had little to no problems during my playthrough - just Tails' AI bugging out in Sonic 2, meaning he was very annoyingly spamming sound effects over and over again, and the drop dash not being particularly good in Sonic 1, 2 and CD.

Beyond that, it was a pretty nice way to play the games to me. I'm not extremely familiar with all the ins and outs of the original classic games because bluntly, I cannot stand Sonic 1, 2 and CD normally, so I feel like a good amount of the smaller changes went over my head. I do have to admit this gave me probably the most favourable runs of Sonic 2 and CD I've ever had, solely because of the option to retry special stages and getting rid of lives as well. It made a lot of the bullshit in both games a lot more tolerable when I didn't have to worry about getting sent back to the start of the level, or having to hit up more and more special zones to get the emeralds if I screw up.

This will probably end up how I play these games from here on, both for quality of life improvements, and for the sake of simply being able to pick up my controller to play Classic Sonic on a TV without hooking up old consoles, dealing with finicky touch controls, and dealing with the other bullshit throughout the games. There's still a lot Origins probably could have and should have included, but for me, it pretty much did the job in terms of a accessible versions of the remasters with additional changes to help me enjoy games I normally don't like very much.