Megathread Sonic Origins | MT | General Discussion

[StaticMania]

2011 is a long time ago...

What a coincidence that the last time Sonic 3 got re-released was the same year as Sonic Generations.

[NoKaine]

5 minutes ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

So, do you think that SEGA might be going through a similar situation to Activision (keep in mind though that Activision's situation was way different from SEGA's situation) in terms of all of the behind the scenes drama might blow up in a way that the whole company would have to start restaffing everyone to save face?  And even though this wasn't the first time that SEGA had mistreated the dev staff or that time that they nearly went bankrupt themselves, I would imagine with how the internet works nowadays, it would give people more incentive to restaff SEGA if the behind the scenes situation gets worse.  Just some random thinking on my part.

Activision was actively hostile to its employees in ways that most other companies cannot compare. Unless we hear about SEGA CEOs stealing breast milk, it ain't going to blow up like that. Hell, even Activision hasn't suffered too much from their stories. Kotick is back on the board.

As disappointing as it is, the way SEGA works is not only typical of them, but for many companies, especially Japanese publishers. This story won't get too much attention from people who are not hardcore fans.

What's atypical is that a prominent developer spoke up. This may affect Origins and Headcannon's future with SEGA, but it's not going to affect the entire company, not at all.

[SolidSurgeTT]

32 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

2011 is a long time ago...

What a coincidence that the last time Sonic 3 got re-released was the same year as Sonic Generations.

If this wasn't the Sonic Origins thread I'd have a segue to post off of this...

[Rabbitearsblog]

I think this part of the conversation is very important.  It seems that Stealth is still willing to work with SEGA, despite the issues with Origins.  And I'm glad that he mentions about how Iizuka-san deserved better than the treatment he's been getting lately because not everyone knows what's going on behind the scenes and it seems that a lot of fans want to blame Iizuka for all the wrongs of this franchise.  Anyway, I do hope that SEGA tries to treat their employees a bit better.

[Sean]

Stealth isn't throwing Sega's own devs under the bus. He's throwing Sega under the bus. You know, the higher ups who were responsible for not giving their teams enough time to polish game, didn't listen to feedback from Headcannon, and forced their own programmers to mess with the RSDK ports despite them not knowing a single fuck about RSDK (and it shows)? I think it's pretty fair to shit on those guys, the ones who are benefiting the most from this entire situation just because they got our money and they know Origins will sell well regardless of the state it is in.

[CleverSonicUsername]

1 hour ago, Roareye Black said:

t should have been included is Knuckles Chaotix, as it plays the same as a regular Sonic game. But with how this came out, can you imagine adding the headache of rebuilding another game on top?

I'd settle for Chaotix and a few others like Spinball being included as unlockable ROMs, it would make the 40 dollar price tag sting a bit less and it would be nice to have them accessible on console legally. 

[VO.SUPER]

I wonder why SEGA even decided to bring so much of Origins in-house? Was it a money or time issue? That Headcanon doesn't have enough staff to make the project in the time they wanted? Or just that its cheaper to pay in-house devs. 

Either way, it looks like they didn't give enough time and spent enough money to deliver the absolute best product. 

[Roareye Black]

36 minutes ago, LegoFedora said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I always thought that was exactly how sonic 3 got released time and time again? Some legal loophole where they can use the music but only in the context of the exact same rom it was made for, which is why we only saw direct rom ports and never actual remasters/remakes or anything that edited the game itself. Which is why it had to be changed for Origins, since it wouldn't be the same rom so Sega wouldn't have the rights to use that music free of hassle.

The current thought (though nothing confirmed either way by Sega) is that they had the ability to rerelease Sonic 3 as a ROM/unaltered due to some kind of gentleman's agreement with MJ. Like the entire MJ music in Sonic 3 situation, there's never been anything written down - at least not publicly. Sonic 3 was last re-released as a ROM on 10th June 2009 (Date nabbed from the Xbox Live Arcade website), 15 days prior to the death of Michael Jackson. MJ had no real need for the money, and by Brad Buxer's account he wanted to distance himself from the work anyways. When MJ died, and the presumed rights fell back to Buxer and the wider MJ Estate, the gentleman's agreement was essentially over.

You can also see this by the fact Sonic 3 had solid repeat appearances across multiple Sonic compilations and even a singular re-release prior to MJ's death;

• Sonic Jam (20th June - 28th August 1997)
• Sonic Mega Collection (November 10th 2002 - March 7th 2003)
• Sonic Mega Collection+ (November 2nd 2004 - March 9th 2007)
• Sega Mega Drive Ultimate Collection/Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection (February 10th - 20th 2009])
• Sonic 3 (XBLA/PSN/Steam) (June 10th 2009)

And is notably missing from these releases after MJ's death;

• Sega Forever [JP Online emulation service] (June 22nd 2017 - Present)
• Sega Mega Drive Classics/Sega Genesis Classics (May 29th - December 7th 2018)
• Sega Mega Drive Mini (September 19th - October 4th 2019)

So it appears to match up to MJ's death. Certainly seems odd for SEGA to have had Sonic 1, 2 and CD rebuilt by December 2013 (2011 for Sonic CD) but then decide not to go with the obviously lucrative Sonic 3 release. However these types of remakes only appeared after MJ's death. While largely consistent, there are some outliers;

• Sega Genesis Collection (PS2 and PSP, November 7th 2006 - February 8th 2007) - Only included Sonic 1 and 2 before MJ's death.
• Sonic Classic Collection (NDS, March 2nd - March 12th 2010) - Included Sonic 3 after MJ's death.
• Sega Mega Drive Classics/Sega Genesis Classics (Windows only, Vol.3, October 26th 2010) - Included Sonic 3 after MJ's death, but only on Windows via a single volume release (The title was chopped into 5 packs between June 1st 2010 and May 2nd 2012), and appears to have been the same as the Steam release which has now been removed from sale. This may have been the only route around the legality as Volume 3 simply includes a "previously released" title.

The omission of Sonic 3 on a PSP/PS2 title isn't a big deal really. The PSP would be limited on space and the PS2 had Mega Collection+ for the full collection already. The Windows releases of Sega Mega Drive Classics appears to have used a loophole to get the game in Volume 3, and no other release of the game included it. That leaves just the Nintendo DS release of Sonic Classic Collection as the outlier. Perhaps SEGA got sued/threatened with lawsuit for re-releasing in that pack (it's canonically the first one after MJ's death) and as such didn't release it in anything else following it. Either way, the timeline is very convoluted.

[Conando]

31 minutes ago, VO.SUPER said:

I wonder why SEGA even decided to bring so much of Origins in-house? Was it a money or time issue? That Headcanon doesn't have enough staff to make the project in the time they wanted? Or just that its cheaper to pay in-house devs. 

Either way, it looks like they didn't give enough time and spent enough money to deliver the absolute best product. 

I think it's more of a pride thing. From years of dev talk, we know SEGA management is extremely arrogant. It's actually kind of nuts Stealth had to clarify his issue was with management, but good of him to do it all the same.

[Red Hot Jack]

Even if these issues are minor and I haven't noticed major stuff, Sega still fucked up by making significant changes to the collection without communicating with the team that worked on remastering the game, which is what cause the issues in the first place. 

I just don't understand, this situation is bizzarre but also so in-company for Sega, they don't care, rush stuff and get in a mess. It's less Sega acting like an evil corp and more about making the usual incompetent choices.

Sorry if I missed bits of the situation, I am just catching up here and I am not really active online due to... life.

[NoKaine]

1 hour ago, VO.SUPER said:

I wonder why SEGA even decided to bring so much of Origins in-house? Was it a money or time issue? That Headcanon doesn't have enough staff to make the project in the time they wanted? Or just that its cheaper to pay in-house devs. 

Either way, it looks like they didn't give enough time and spent enough money to deliver the absolute best product. 

I'm pretty sure the project is largely in-house in the first place. Getting Headcannon on board is a bit of an anomaly (it seems they only did the S3&K port), and it was likely to have consistency between games. 

[DaBigJ]

This is just speculation, but it's interesting speculation

 

[Quicksilver]

1 hour ago, CleverSonicUsername said:

I'd settle for Chaotix and a few others like Spinball being included as unlockable ROMs, it would make the 40 dollar price tag sting a bit less and it would be nice to have them accessible on console legally. 

agreed 100%. i've always wanted a game that was a mixture of sonic mega collection and gems collection, and having all the genesis games, including spinball, chaotix, 3D blast, and mean bean machine would have been a good idea. i believe sega's mindset behind the 40 dollar price tag is that you get 4 games, 10 dollars each. which i don't understand since those games were all priced at 5-7 dollars each a little less then a decade ago, and including the other genesis games (or heck, even game gear stuff) would've made the 40 dollar price a little more acceptable

[VO.SUPER]

1 hour ago, Conando said:

I think it's more of a pride thing. From years of dev talk, we know SEGA management is extremely arrogant. It's actually kind of nuts Stealth had to clarify his issue was with management, but good of him to do it all the same.

I don't think it's a pride thing. If it was, I think SEGA would have never hired him back after the Denuvo fiasco during Mania's release. I think overall it's more practical than that.

 

 

  

4 minutes ago, Silver-7 said:

agreed 100%. i've always wanted a game that was a mixture of sonic mega collection and gems collection, and having all the genesis games, including spinball, chaotix, 3D blast, and mean bean machine would have been a good idea. i believe sega's mindset behind the 40 dollar price tag is that you get 4 games, 10 dollars each. which i don't understand since those games were all priced at 5-7 dollars each a little less then a decade ago, and including the other genesis games (or heck, even game gear stuff) would've made the 40 dollar price a little more acceptable

The mindset is clear: They're doing the Nintendo model. SEGA realizes that by having so many Sonic products at a cheap price give a perception amongst casual consumers of a devalued brand that people can't accept at a more premium price. 

This is bad for us ofc. But the messaging is clear. 

 

[CleverSonicUsername]

5 minutes ago, Silver-7 said:

agreed 100%. i've always wanted a game that was a mixture of sonic mega collection and gems collection, and having all the genesis games, including spinball, chaotix, 3D blast, and mean bean machine would have been a good idea. i believe sega's mindset behind the 40 dollar price tag is that you get 4 games, 10 dollars each. which i don't understand since those games were all priced at 5-7 dollars each a little less then a decade ago, and including the other genesis games (or heck, even game gear stuff) would've made the 40 dollar price a little more acceptable

I'd like to think I'm very predictive of Sega's bullshit given the decades of cynicism I've built up towards the company, but every now and then I get fooled by them, and seeing the 3D render of the island from Spinball and the fact that 3D Blast music would be included made me think maybe, just *maybe* they had a surprise in store for us and these ROMs were unlockable. 

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice... I'm gonna keep buying this garbage. 

[Tornado]

2 hours ago, VO.SUPER said:

I wonder why SEGA even decided to bring so much of Origins in-house? Was it a money or time issue? That Headcanon doesn't have enough staff to make the project in the time they wanted? Or just that its cheaper to pay in-house devs. 

Either way, it looks like they didn't give enough time and spent enough money to deliver the absolute best product. 

Sega, meaning the people in the company above Iizuka, has probably had nothing but sheer contempt for the success and critical adoration Mania had since it came out. I wouldn't be surprised if it was through gritted teeth that they brought back anyone who had worked on the Taxman versions or Mania in the past; particularly considering how much they decided to do on Origins themselves instead that they seemed to have almost comprehensively done half-assed.

 

 

 

 

Compare the situation with Mania, where it sold a shitload and reviewed fantastically and Sega barely had to do anything and almost certainly didn't spend much money on it, to if there had been a Mega Man equivalent. Mania came out 5 years ago. Capcom would have put out 3 sequels by now, with the same team getting increasingly larger budgets.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Tornado

[JezMM]

10 minutes ago, Silver-7 said:

agreed 100%. i've always wanted a game that was a mixture of sonic mega collection and gems collection, and having all the genesis games, including spinball, chaotix, 3D blast, and mean bean machine would have been a good idea. i believe sega's mindset behind the 40 dollar price tag is that you get 4 games, 10 dollars each. which i don't understand since those games were all priced at 5-7 dollars each a little less then a decade ago, and including the other genesis games (or heck, even game gear stuff) would've made the 40 dollar price a little more acceptable

I don't think the decision would really be based on the price point being neatly dividable by 4 in a satisfying way, I think it's as simple as they just wanted this title to focus on the core main four classic Sonic 2D platformers, and the only real reason why people are clamouring for Spinball, Chaotix and 3D Blast to be thrown in as bonuses is because they went and mixed up the message by including those soundtracks as bonuses (in a desperate bid to fluff up the terrible day-1 DLC content with whatever they could at practically no extra development cost) and including two of the islands from those games as decorations for funsies.

I think if they hadn't included those bonuses related to these side games, there'd be a bit less demand for them, but because they did, there's this feeling that we're getting full representation of the four main games but a sort of incomplete representation of the others that is now in desperate need of completion because humans like things to be nice and tidy and even and such.

 

Of course, then there are also fans who are just very fond of those three games and don't really consider them any lesser than the 4 main games just because they're not 2D/not a proper platformer/don't feature Sonic respectively.  To those fans who are less particular about organisation, it's not "we want the side games as well!" it's literally "why only 4 mega drive Sonic platformers?  Why not all 7?"  Which is reasonable enough, it's a matter of personal perspective.

[SupahBerry]

3 hours ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

So, do you think that SEGA might be going through a similar situation to Activision (keep in mind though that Activision's situation was way different from SEGA's situation) in terms of all of the behind the scenes drama might blow up in a way that the whole company would have to start restaffing everyone to save face?  And even though this wasn't the first time that SEGA had mistreated the dev staff or that time that they nearly went bankrupt themselves, I would imagine with how the internet works nowadays, it would give people more incentive to restaff SEGA if the behind the scenes situation gets worse.  Just some random thinking on my part.

SEGA will hardly flinch. Going after individual companies is not enough, as recent Activision developments show. The root of all chronic backstabbing in corporates lies within the rotten core of the economy itself.

A system that enables corporate management to, when they've not leaving them in the dark, fill their employees' heads with empty promises of good treatment, respect and support of what they enjoy doing. When deep down they are hardly seen any differently from their consumers to them: expendable and easily replaced gears to power their greed machine. Only through who and whatever they believe brings them most income are individuals respected, especially those higher up running the joint.

Damage of reputation through bad word-of-mouth over the internet, even to point of government intervention, means little if they can still reap in plenty of profit through countless consumers not in the know. So whenever they lose, they still win and the staff are the ones who lose. There are corporates who may be better about it like Microsoft, and I'm hopeful but impatient that their acquisition of Activision goes through and will change things for the better. But then again, as acquisition only help make companies grow bigger, I don't trust even the safest sounding of corporates not to get infected by toxicity too, or go back on their promise of respecting unions forming in Micro's case.

People like Iizuka can keep being kind to all who count on them, be it those who look up to them or those they look up to, but as Steath demonstrated, there has to come a time when enough is enough for them. But they can't just break one machine alone, and all the other machines are there to patch it back up. As cries for Unionization grow louder, employees everywhere need to tackle the corporate machines all at once; companies have power, workers have numbers. And maybe only after they expose the heart of all mismanagement in the industry to those who established it would we have a better chance at getting it in check.

But until then, they have to submit to corporate decisions with a smile taped on their faces, no matter how reckless, imposing or harmful it'd be to the product, the worker's wellbeing, or even they're own trust in them. For they are all pawns in the game of capitalism.

/vent

[Your Vest Friend]

16 minutes ago, Tornado said:

Sega, meaning the people in the company above Iizuka, has probably had nothing but sheer contempt for the success and critical adoration Mania had since it came out.

And yet they're perfectly happy to cash in on it.

This isn't an argument btw, just an emphasis on the hypocrisy of greed.

[NoKaine]

24 minutes ago, Tornado said:

Sega, meaning the people in the company above Iizuka, has probably had nothing but sheer contempt for the success and critical adoration Mania had since it came out. I wouldn't be surprised if it was through gritted teeth that they brought back anyone who had worked on the Taxman versions or Mania in the past; particularly considering how much they decided to do on Origins themselves instead that they seemed to have almost comprehensively done half-assed.

Compare the situation with Mania, where it sold a shitload and reviewed fantastically and Sega barely had to do anything and almost certainly didn't spend much money on it, to if there had been a Mega Man equivalent. Mania came out 5 years ago. Capcom would have put out 3 sequels by now, with the same team getting increasingly larger budgets.

I hope this is sarcastic. Of all the things SEGA is, "jealous of Mania" is one of the most hilarious. And also not true.

Especially since the "people above Iizuka" aren't developers. "SEGA" has as much to do with Mania as they do any other game in the game in the series. They're publishes and staff. They have literally nothing to prove. In their eyes, the Sonic game made money (and there's no reports that it may a "shitload", last I check, they only reported it selling a million) and that's good enough.

Mania had a big DLC, a series of cartoon shorts, and effectively split the brand into Classic and Modern. Every time they bring Classic back since, it's by people who worked on Mania. For people who are mad about Mania, they sure do keep referencing Mania. Oh, yeah, and the whole "Forces and Mania are literally connected" thing.

This always sounded like fan fiction. "And SEGA was SOOOOO mad, because the FANS made a BETTER GAME THAN THEY DID..."  Do you really think SEGA wanted Mania to fail...? 

The Mega Man analogy is especially hilarious because Mega Man 11 came out four years ago, reviewed well and sold well, and there has been literally nothing from Capcom whatsoever.

[Tornado]

2 minutes ago, NoKaine said:

I hope this is sarcastic.

That's nice.

[NoKaine]

Just now, Tornado said:

That's nice.

Oh dear, lol.

[LegoFedora]

53 minutes ago, Jake_LeOFFICIAL said:

This is just speculation, but it's interesting speculation

This was the feature I wanted to most, you've got to be kidding me. I enjoy this collection and still thing it's a good way to play these games, but holy damn every time new info is discovered it just brings into question how Sega keeps letting this happen and I feel worse for actually supporting this with my money.

Please please PLEASE hire headcannon to be in charge of patching the game, and maybe even implement tiny features like this into it

[SolidSurgeTT]

1 hour ago, Zoomzeta said:

Yeah, you're getting ratioed here. Just felt pointing it out. 

The hell does that mean?

Anyway I kind of see myself in Stealth's tweets here. I feel like I'd be making similar responses to the reception the people whose opinions most matter to me if I felt my work wasn't being produced to the standard I wanted to, even possibly at the expense of maintaining a positive relationship with the company I'm working with. I prioritize the product I produce, not what the paymasters might want me to do in such a situation, and I would want transparency if I felt like something needed to be said.

But that's just how I am.

 

6 minutes ago, LegoFedora said:

I feel worse for actually supporting this with my money.

This sort of statement makes me feel bad even as someone who didn't buy the game. Like I should have higher standards for what I spend my money on.

[DaBigJ]

Just now, SolidSurgeTT said:

The hell does that mean?

Ratio, in the sense of getting more likes/retweets/reactions on one post compared to another. It's most commonly done on Twitter.