Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Kintor]

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Yes. It's probably not going to make the same total revenue barring some ridiculous miracle.

If you already agree to this fact then you shouldn't need to continue this conversation further. You can enjoy Sonic Mania and feel happy when it's successful - without trying to find ways to one-up Sonic Forces because that's never going to happen. It's the height of foolishness to compare the relative profits of a small downloadable game to a full-scale retail release, even if both are still part of the Sonic franchise. Sonic Forces is going to come out ahead in the end, not that such an obvious observation should ever have been a point of controversy.

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

I like how you quoted Nepenthe's post, but didn't actually present any arguments concerning the fact that the two games have vastly different budgets. Instead, you made assumptions about the motives of those who disagree with you having some sort of agenda to distort the facts (pointing out basic economic facts is a "clever excuse" to try to exaggerate Mania's scale??), and even called the belief "delusional". Classy.

It's even stupider considering I happen to know Nepenthe doesn't care much about Mania, and she was among those pointing out this basic economic fact. Stop making baseless assumptions of other people, it's a horrible "argumentation" style. People aren't even necessarily trying to "prove" that Mania will make more money, they're just idly speculating and you're taking that as some sort of personal attack on Sonic Forces. The level of defensiveness you're displaying is just through the roof.

[Chris Knopps]

13 minutes ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

You mean the same gymnastics you're doing to justify your insane brand of logic that I've completely lost the ability to follow due to how circular and all over the place it is despite that being a contradiction?

Reading that comment makes an image like this come to mind.

Dang Edd... lol

But in regards to this whole which will sell better, which will get the better acclaim, etc stuff... I do think in both fields Mania's going to top Forces if nothing else because of, as many have pointed out, being digital focused, as well as likely being cheaper, possibly much cheaper, and even if it's half or less of a full priced $50 to $60 title like Forces will be I think it will still be able to top Forces in numbers sold and overall profits because of both, the locations in the game and music, as well was the whole Whitehead team thing.

Forces will definitely do better than Lost World and BOOM no matter what, I'd go so far as to say combined even, but it will be some pretty rough competition against Mania.

[Nepenthe]

5 minutes ago, Kintor said:

If you already agree to this fact then you shouldn't need to continue this conversation further. 

No, because you're confusing revenue with profit while acting like everyone else is talking out of their ass.

Let's say Mania makes $600,000 but only took $100,000 to make, while Forces makes $1 million while taking $900,000 to make.

Guess which game Sega is going to put on their reports as the bigger success?

[Tracker_TD]

5 minutes ago, Kintor said:

If you already agree to this fact then you shouldn't need to continue this conversation further. You can enjoy Sonic Mania and feel happy when it's successful - without trying to find ways to one-up Sonic Forces because that's never going to happen. It's the height of foolishness to compare the relative profits of a small downloadable game to a full-scale retail release, even if both are still part of the Sonic franchise. Sonic Forces is going to come out ahead in the end, not that such an obvious observation should ever have been a point of controversy.

I find your whole "Forces is the most positive thing for the Sonic series ever" schtick amusing

Mostly because you're ironically the one person I've seen this defensive and utterly, unflinchingly positive about it at all

Whether Mania or Forces is more profitable remains to be seen; Mania costs less to buy, but also prolly cost less to make. Forces will cost more to buy, but it'll also have a much higher budget. And then you've gotta factor in the Mania Collectors Edition, a best-selling item that costs more than Forces is likely to at retail anywho. 

All in all, I honestly reckon it could go either way, especially if people actually speak with their wallets and don't buy Forces at launch (I sure as hell don't intend to at this rate). 

[Indigo Rush]

8 minutes ago, Kintor said:

If you already agree to this fact then you shouldn't need to continue this conversation further. You can enjoy Sonic Mania and feel happy when it's successful - without trying to find ways to one-up Sonic Forces because that's never going to happen. It's the height of foolishness to compare the relative profits of a small downloadable game to a full-scale retail release, even if both are still part of the Sonic franchise. Sonic Forces is going to come out ahead in the end, not that such an obvious observation should ever have been a point of controversy.

Let me count the reasons this makes me giggle

1. Nepenthe, if anything, is not really interested in Sonic Mania to begin with

2. If Sonic Mania, a lower budget game, makes the same overall revenue as Forces, a bigger budget game, then Sonic Mania was a better financial success; you can calculate this theory by using the ancient art of math

3. The sheer amount of arrogance you thrust into the forums outweighs any opposition you've ever met, this is the epitome of "holier than thou" and it's delicious

4. sonic forces a trash, sonic mania a cute

5. sonic mania a cute

[Blue Blood]

Kintor, honestly, please listen objectively to what everyone is saying. Nobody is trying to shit on Forces or your fun (except me and maybe Indy Bae), but we all want the discussions not to be mindless arguments where any side is on the defensive. 

[Kintor]

3 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

No, because you're confusing revenue with profit while acting like everyone else is talking out of their ass.

Let's say Mania makes $600,000 but only took $100,000 to make, while Forces makes $1 million while taking $900,000 to make.

Guess which game Sega is going to put on their reports as the bigger success?

In the end Sonic Forces is going to be the only game of the two directly listed on Sega's financial reports, digital sales figures are never reported but retail copies are. That should at least give you an idea of Sega's expectations. As I've said earlier, it's more like Sonic Mania might make $10,000.000 and Sonic Forces will make $100,000,000 at the same time, when both go on to sell a million copies. Because once you get to something on the scale of the Sonic franchise, accounting technicalities don't have the same effect. It doesn't matter that Sonic Forces has a bigger budget when it's still going to make the greater profit overall, both in terms of gross and net profit. This crutch about budgets is just trying to make Sonic Mania look like a bigger game that it actually is, which is a disservice to both Sonic Mania and Sonic Forces, confusing the issue.

[Tracker_TD]

1 minute ago, Kintor said:

In the end Sonic Forces is going to be the only game of the two directly listed on Sega's financial reports, digital sales figures are never reported but retail copies are. 

I've got a decent feeling Mania's gonna be looking pretty dang shiny on those reports then. 

[Indigo Rush]

Kintor sweetheart I need you to understand that 600,000 - 100,000 = 500,000, and that 1,000,000 - 900,000 = 100,000

One number is bigger than the other

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

2 minutes ago, Kintor said:

In the end Sonic Forces is going to be the only game of the two directly listed on Sega's financial reports, digital sales figures are never reported but retail copies are. That should at least give you an idea of Sega's expectations. As I've said earlier, it's more like Sonic Mania might make $10,000.000 and Sonic Forces will make $100,000,000 at the same time, when both go on to sell a million copies. Because once you get to something on the scale of the Sonic franchise, accounting technicalities don't have the same effect. It doesn't matter that Sonic Forces has a bigger budget when it's still going to make the greater profit overall, both in terms of gross and net profit. This crutch about budgets is just trying to make Sonic Mania look like a bigger game that it actually is, which is a disservice to both Sonic Mania and Sonic Forces, confusing the issue.

...Pretty sure Sonic Forces isn't going to cost ten times as much as Sonic Mania to buy.

This isn't "accounting technicalities", this is the basic principles of how to calculate overall profits. The two games probably have VERY different budgets. Do you like...just not understand the principle of "net profit"?

[SenEDDtor Missile]

2 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

I've got a decent feeling Mania's gonna be looking pretty dang shiny on those reports then. 

Is that cartridge actually a usable one for a Genesis, or is it just there to look pretty? Or am I an idiot and it's for the Switch?

[Tracker_TD]

1 minute ago, SenEDDtor Missile said:

Is that cartridge actually a usable one for a Genesis, or is it just there to look pretty? Or am I an idiot and it's for the Switch?

It's just to look pretty and hold the gold ring, aye. 

[Kintor]

1 minute ago, Monkey Destruction Switch said:

...Pretty sure Sonic Forces isn't going to cost ten times as much as Sonic Mania to buy.

This isn't "accounting technicalities", this is the basic principles of how to calculate overall profits. The two games probably have VERY different budgets. Do you like...just not understand the principle of "net profit"?

Even if Sonic Forces costs five times as much to buy the result is still pretty much the same. That would be $10,000.000 for Sonic Mania to $50,000,000 for Sonic Forces, when both sell a million copies. At this kind of scale, as you'd expect for the Sonic franchise, a bigger budget for Sonic Forces isn't going to be an issue. Sonic Forces is still going to make the greater net profit in the end, that's a profit minus expenses.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Just now, Tracker_TD said:

It's just to look pretty and hold the gold ring, aye. 

Ah I see. It would have actually been kinda cool if Mania was somehow able to work on Genesis, but I guess it's a bit too advanced in terms of graphics and stuff for such an old console huh?

[Nepenthe]

Lol, I literally didn't read the rest of that post because I felt the premise alone was preposterous enough to not bother with refuting the underlying support and logic going towards supporting it. But yes, let it be known for the record that it's actually incorrect that I don't care that much about Mania.

I literally don't care about it in any capacity beyond mentioning it in this dumb discussion.

Look up my posts and see how much I don't post in the Mania thread due the fact that I've got nothing of note to add in it due to my apathy and bitter history (if only people took this approach towards Forces, but c'est la vie).

Although I wouldn't want to see it crash and burn because I'm not that much of an asshole, I've got no real emotional investment in said game overall.

So trying to position me as a defender of it just because I know some basic math and business sense is that much more hilarious and more of an indicator that all of this is about nothing more than trying to make out Forces to be this perfect little gem of a game with which no one can possibly have a problem with.

Which is not only disingenuous arguing (you still don't know how profits work even after multiple people have explained it to you Kintor), but it's transparently insecure to the point of cringe. I like arguably worse-looking games in this franchise while disliking and hating more beloved ones, and I don't need the validation of others to hold these opinions. Because I'm an adult.

So, yeah. What we're gonna do is drop this tangent. We're also going to stop acting like fanboys every single time someone mentions something that isn't absolutely glowing praise, because fanboyism and bad-faith arguing are actually against the rules and we can strike and ban for this shit all willy-nilly. I did it before when one person kept having an aneurysm over Lost World's art style, and I will happily do it again to people who are going to go on with shitty economics arguments that are a ploy to make a thread all about them and their hurt feelings over Forces' reception on this website. The Forces topic is already a blight and there's no reason it has to be derailed by one person's emotional investment.

[Tracker_TD]

Just now, SenEDDtor Missile said:

Ah I see. It would have actually been kinda cool if Mania was somehow able to work on Genesis, but I guess it's a bit too advanced in terms of graphics and stuff for such an old console huh?

Yeah. It actually slightly bugs me bc the dev team have made it clear as day the game's intended to be a Saturn homage, but the marketing's gone full Mega Drive. Like, it makes sense, Saturn flopped in the west, but eeehhhhh

[SenEDDtor Missile]

13 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

Yeah. It actually slightly bugs me bc the dev team have made it clear as day the game's intended to be a Saturn homage, but the marketing's gone full Mega Drive. Like, it makes sense, Saturn flopped in the west, but eeehhhhh

Gotta cash in on that sweet nostalgic mon-aaaay...

EDIT: I am last person post here now...

HI EVERYBODY!

Edited May 8, 2017 by SenEDDtor Missile

[CleverSonicUsername]

13 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

Yeah. It actually slightly bugs me bc the dev team have made it clear as day the game's intended to be a Saturn homage, but the marketing's gone full Mega Drive. Like, it makes sense, Saturn flopped in the west, but eeehhhhh

I was talking about that with a friend just yesterday. It's meant to give off this vibe of a long lost Saturn game, but the collector's edition has the statue sitting atop a Genesis, and they give you a fake cart along with it. I mean I get it, the Saturn doesn't have the same sort of lasting appeal the Genesis does, and people more closely associate Sonic's heyday with that era of gaming. To echo your opinion, it makes sense but it's still kinda ehhh.

[Blue Blood]

8 minutes ago, CleverSonicUsername said:

I was talking about that with a friend just yesterday. It's meant to give off this vibe of a long lost Saturn game, but the collector's edition has the statue sitting atop a Genesis, and they give you a fake cart along with it. I mean I get it, the Saturn doesn't have the same sort of lasting appeal the Genesis does, and people more closely associate Sonic's heyday with that era of gaming. To echo your opinion, it makes sense but it's still kinda ehhh.

The thing is, even if the Saturn did have the significance of the Mega Drive, there's no Sonic game for the Saturn. And the Saturn read supposed to be all about the 3D era of gaming. Marketing Mania as a Saturn inspired title would make no sense because it's got more in common with the Mega Drive titles, it doesn't do what the Saturn was known for (low poly 3D) and like you say, the Saturn lacks that lasting appeal.

Mania to me says the next Sonic game for the Mega Drive, even if it's technically unfeasible.

EDIT: the fuck this is the Forces thread?

[Tracker_TD]

Quote

The thing is, even if the Saturn did have the significance of the Mega Drive, there's no Sonic game for the Saturn.

Sonic R, Sonic 3D and Sonic Jam disagree with you.  Saturn da best, anyways, and it's pretty wrong to suggest it was known for low-poly 3D; it was always known as "a 2D powerhouse" through and through.

But yeah, I was about to say we should probably get back on topic.

Anyway, seems the DIY character rumour's waning a bit? I noticed that sentiment earlier before the shitstorm. 

Honestly, I'd still be very surprised if that wasn't a DIY character; it just seems too bland compared to most Sonic silhouettes. That said, Forces has been relatively bland so far to begin with so who knows at this stage.

[CleverSonicUsername]

6 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

The thing is, even if the Saturn did have the significance of the Mega Drive, there's no Sonic game for the Saturn. And the Saturn read supposed to be all about the 3D era of gaming. Marketing Mania as a Saturn inspired title would make no sense because it's got more in common with the Mega Drive titles, it doesn't do what the Saturn was known for (low poly 3D) and like you say, the Saturn lacks that lasting appeal.

Mania to me says the next Sonic game for the Mega Drive, even if it's technically unfeasible.

For sure, those are all excellent points as well. Mania is absolutely a continuation of the Genesis games, only if they continued from the Genesis onto the Saturn, but at that time there was no way SEGA would want to do another 2D Sonic like that. The Saturn really pushed 3D since that was such a hot thing at the time. Even Sonic Jam, which was primarily a repackaging of the Genesis titles, had to throw in some big 3D hub world.

That said, I have a lot of nostalgia for the Saturn, and things like the 32X. I think it's because as a kid we didn't have much money, so my only console for the longest time was the Genesis. I saw the Saturn, CD, and 32X in gaming magazines and fawned over them, so anything related to those just reminds me of a very specific moment in time, loafing around on my bed on a Saturday morning with an EGM opened up reading about these Saturn games I'd never get to play. Good times.

Anyway this is not the Mania topic so I'll shut it.

[Diogenes]

Even if their intentions were to imagine what a Sonic game on the Saturn could've been like, the sense I get from it is more of a Shovel Knight situation, where it looks the way you remember your favorite old games rather than looking like the games actually were.

e: and since we're moving on from that...

Honestly, I'd still be very surprised if that wasn't a DIY character; it just seems too bland compared to most Sonic silhouettes.

Yeah this is pretty much how I feel. If there was anything unique or interesting looking about the character I wouldn't put much stock in the character creator rumor, but it looks like such a basic "crowd filler" kind of design.

[Shiny Gems]

Since we wanna get back on topic, let me ask you all something while we are at it.

Just how many of you are disappointed with Forces so far? Also, how many of you are not?

[Nepenthe]

I was disappointed the moment Classic Sonic showed his face. However, at this point I'm apathetic to it. I'm treating it now like a popcorn game- something that I'll probably ingest really quickly and have a nice time with before moving on with something more exciting *coughOdysseycough*

But this is all assuming Sega has nothing interesting to show at E3. I'm keeping an open mind.