Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, JosepMelloZSM said:

To be fair, as much as the nostalgia throwback to the classic series before mania was... bad, Adventure fans didn't had anything for them since... '06.

I actually consider Unleashed and Black Knight as the final Adventure fan tributes really. After that came Iizuka's complete charge of the franchise and the 7-11 child focus.

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, Dejimon11 said:

What really is there to reboot with Sonic tho? It's not like the games have an ongoing plot or something like that. I just imagined that Sonic is a franchise where you can do whatever you want with it. 

You can't tell Shadow's origin story. Not now, not in this continuity, because that already exists, and he's already here.

[Indigo Rush]

I miss Sonic games having a consistent narrative; and the only outlet left is likely being cancelled.

Oh well. 

[Nepenthe]

Just now, Diogenes said:

Yeah but part of the problem is that we shouldn't be in that position, we shouldn't have things related to a character's origins be relegated to "old trash we ignore", those things should be something to build on. A reboot would be an opportunity to revitalize those origins and legitimately grow from there instead of leaving them buried.

The question of whether or not we "should" be in that position is irrelevant because that's a completely subjective artistic decision. There's nothing inherently wrong with having an episodic franchise, particularly since it doesn't necessarily inhibit the ability for arcs to exist within them.

Also, why in the world would you attempt to revitalize any character's origins when people at this point think basically every origin story we have is "too mature/grimdark/emo" for the franchise, especially if the attempt is to "wipe the slate clean" and effectively pretend the entire franchise never happened? You might as well rewrite the character entirely at that point.

Just now, Diogenes said:

I'm not even saying "get rid of Shadow", I'm saying "start over and do justice to Shadow". Cut the crap that made him the joke that he is, replace it with something stronger and more coherent.

You can do justice by Shadow- and by extension the rest of the characters- by understanding their personalities, occupations, and abilities, utilizing them based upon that, and just building their presence into the games based upon what the plot needs. Instead of making a Professor Pickle who's good at archaeology and history for the sake of exposition, just fucking use Knuckles or even The Chaotix to do that who can also double as physical help in the plot and gameplay too.

[Kintor]

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

You can't tell Shadow's origin story. Not now, not in this continuity, because that already exists, and he's already here.

Except nobody is asking to retell Shadow's origin story, least of all you. We already have a great origin for Shadow in Sonic Adventure 2 and the Sonic fanbase isn't going to forgotten when you try to wipe the slate clean. A reboot involved Shadow would just be directly compared to Sonic Adventure 2, meaning that you've just wasted your time and the reboot would've achieved nothing.

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Also, why in the world would you attempt to revitalize any character's origins when people at this point think basically every origin story we have is "too mature/grimdark/emo" for the franchise, especially if the attempt is to "wipe the slate clean" and effectively pretend the entire franchise never happened? You might as well rewrite the character entirely at that point.

To do them better, so they are instead not awful and hated.

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You can do justice by Shadow- and by extension the rest of the characters- by understanding their personalities, occupations, and abilities, utilizing them based upon that, and just building their presence into the games based upon what the plot needs.

And if those things are so twisted and buried under poor decisions and misguided experiments that no one can seem to agree what they actually are...?

Except nobody is asking to retell Shadow's origin story, least of all you.

If we could get a better series out of it I'd accept it with a smile on my face.

[Dejimon11]

8 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

You can't tell Shadow's origin story. Not now, not in this continuity, because that already exists, and he's already here.

Considering how they've retconned Eggman Nega and the Rogues' backstories I wouldn't but it pass them to do the same for Shadow's

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

22 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

I consider 06 a good thing. You can not learn if you do not take risk. 06 did some things right.  *made actual good looking humans instead of mii figures*,

Quote

had good cgi *not in game.

Not even those were consistently good.

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a fantastic musical score and some great boss scale fights

Something plenty of Sonic games have, so there's no telling what makes 06 oh so special.

I suppose 06 iwas a good thing for giving SEGA the kick in the pants they needed for a wake up call in the aftermath.

22 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

As I have said before and will say again no sonic game has ever had as good a hype of a e3 trailer as that game did. 

And as before, you're still ignoring all the factors that made it possible...and how 06 is responsible for eradicating a lot of said factors.

[Kintor]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

To do them better, so they are instead not awful and hated.

You're missing the point. A reboot can't erase the memory of the Sonic games you hate from the minds of other Sonic fans. People will still be asking for Sonic Adventure 3 and/or more boost games after a reboot. If anything a reboot would just make the Sonic fanbase angrier and crazier than ever, as large segments of the fanbase would feel viscerally betrayed by any move to publically disregard the games that they love so much.

 

[Nepenthe]

Just now, Diogenes said:

To do them better, so they are instead not awful and hated.

You can do them better just by writing them better.

And they're always going to be hated by the people who hate them. I thought you determined this the last time we argued about using characters in playable roles. People who don't like the cast are probably never going to like them no matter what the hell you do with them. Someone who hates Shadow at this point simply doesn't want to see him again- doesn't matter if you get Toby Fox to fucking write the next Sonic game. This is why they're barely around anymore at all.

Just now, Diogenes said:

And if those things are so twisted and buried under poor decisions and misguided experiments that no one can seem to agree what they actually are...?

What does any of this this have to do with looking at the relevant manuals and bios and just seeing that Knuckles is good at digging up shit and the Chaotix are a detective agency and thus- by extension- can probably detective stuff? This isn't rocket science.

[Kellan]

8 minutes ago, Kintor said:

If anything a reboot would just make the Sonic fanbase angrier and crazier than ever, as large segments of the fanbase would feel viscerally betrayed by any move to publically disregard the games that they love so much.

 

Can confirm. Every time they announce a game that doesn't look like something I'd be into, I'm generally ok with it. I figure, "This is Sonic Team, so they'll probably have a completely different kind of game next time, and I'll just hope the next one is something I'll like."

If they did a reboot, and it wasn't what I wanted in a Sonic game, I would be much less accepting of it. A reboot, to me, would imply much more commitment to what they're doing. So, if I didn't like what they're doing, I would feel super alienated.

Edit: Plus, I happen to like this continuity.

[Wraith]

If you really wanted to mess around with Shadow's backstory you can do what they already did and retcon stuff in a flashback. You could also feasibly never bring it up again, if the point is truly that he's over it now. He can just be Sonic's cynical friend who he sometimes butts heads over methods with.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Admittedly, the last time  this series tried to reboot, we got this stinker:

Yeah. No thanks.

[Nepenthe]

Just now, Josh said:

You could also feasibly never bring it up again, if the point is truly that he's over it now.

That's also another thing. It's not like they threw Shadow's past away. They ended the character arc it was relevant in. He found out what his past was (twice) and reached a moment of self-determination (three times), so he's over it. What would be the point in ever revisiting it?

[Kintor]

4 minutes ago, Kellan said:

Can confirm. Every time they announce a game that doesn't look like something I'd be into, I'm generally ok with it. I figure, "This is Sonic Team, so they'll probably have a completely different kind of game next time, and I'll just hope the next one is something I'll like."

If they did a reboot, and it wasn't what I wanted in a Sonic game, I would be much less accepting of it. A reboot, to me, would imply much more commitment to what they're doing. So, if I didn't like what they're doing, I would feel super alienated.

Edit: Plus, I happen to like this continuity.

Agreed, a reboot would just be a huge insult to the Sonic fanbase. Which would be a really stupid move for Sega to make. Nothing worse than alienating the one group of people who have supported the Sonic franchise through thick and thin.

[Kellan]

1 minute ago, Jovahexeon Joranvexeon said:

Admittedly, the last time  this series tried to reboot, we got this stinker:

Yeah. No thanks.

That was a reboot? But it had a bunch of already established characters in it, it didn't explain any of them, it didn't contradict any established canon (except for Blaze, for some reason), and it wiped itself out of the timeline at the end. I checked the Wikipedia page and it doesn't have a source for it being a reboot. Was that said in an interview or something?

[FantasticMrRobb]

I hope I'm not just jumping in as a random voice; but I think one of the only fair reasons a reboot for the main series would be acceptable would be to actually establish a relating story. Right now, unless you kind of look into it, it's a little difficult to see what games are canon and what aren't. It's almost easy to say console vs portable, but there's certain ones that stand out.

Maybe another reason would be to kind of "settle down" a core gameplay for the series, like what I feel Forces may be trying to hint at.

Then again, as some have mentioned, it would be a little difficult to rewrite stories for some of the characters. However, if the story for said character as good, keep it.

10 minutes ago, Kellan said:

That was a reboot? But it had a bunch of already established characters in it, it didn't explain any of them, it didn't contradict any established canon (except for Blaze, for some reason), and it wiped itself out of the timeline at the end. I checked the Wikipedia page and it doesn't have a source for it being a reboot. Was that said in an interview or something?

You didn't know '06 was supposed to be a reboot? Not that it's reliable, but I seen where it said reboot on Wikipedia.

[Chris Knopps]

Welp... I did it again.

Gonna try steering this debate back to Forces since things went a bit too sharp off the curve again following my post. It's possible Forces itself is meant to be this very thing we've been discussing, albeit in a much less drastic manner. I'd like to think it's an entirely new world as a result of the Time Eater fiasco in Generations as I've mentioned, but who knows? With any luck this is the beginning of a brand new continuity for the franchise and Forces will be the last of the rehash we'll see as a final nod to the past era.

[FantasticMrRobb]

You're suggesting that, in a way, Forces could be a "soft" reboot of the series? At least, to push it forward into a new direction?

By the way, I get a kick out of people swearing up and down that Forces is a direct sequel to Chronicles. Like... what? lol

I'll get this shameful little secret out of the way real quick, I kinda had a little hope that the 3rd character was Boom Sonic. But...am I the only one who read about this hint that there's something planned for the 3 Sonics in the 30th Anniversary?

[Shadowlax]

58 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

That's also another thing. It's not like they threw Shadow's past away. They ended the character arc it was relevant in. He found out what his past was (twice) and reached a moment of self-determination (three times), so he's over it. What would be the point in ever revisiting it?

Hypothetically at an eventual point there might be groups of people like " why is this guy such an asshole" , and possibly revisiting it might inform some who don't wish to look through wiki's and play old games. Then again, you could just do the easy thing, like the comic did and just have new aliens or new enemies in general... and have shadow fight them and talk about them and do his DMC shit and solve that problem by having talk about where's coming from. Avoiding having to go through that all over again, creating a new problem and limiting references to minor flash backs and lines. Instead of having to retell that. 

This is all hypothetical 

[Meta77]

1 hour ago, Jovahexeon Joranvexeon said:

Admittedly, the last time  this series tried to reboot, we got this stinker:

Yeah. No thanks.

People need to stop acting as if sonic 06 drove people away if 2 games did that than they were already leaving  hell cod does this what every other hear and I stay. 06 was rushed it was not bad for the sake of being bad but simply were done working on it and want it as a Xbox launch title and Christmas title ship it. Had they taken the time like they are with this and mania maybe it would have been better hell even a solid 7 of 8. But no

I have hope for forces but as stated earlier they need to give more info and act like they have faith in the game like Nintendo did breath of the wild not show off a short trailer we and tgs and then noting up toll a month from launch

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

A reboot is a tricky thing indeed.

Here's the way I see it, the only problem with a reboot is if you straight up trash everything people like and do something almost completely different--almost like what the did with Boom, if it were reboot and not an alternate continuity. That's the part that'll shoot you in the foot.

And no, a reboot will not erase the past...well at least not fully. History can't be changed to make people forget %100, but a reboot that doesn't throw the stuff people like away will at least allow a lot of folks to move on from it for the most part. A reboot should be more about starting over and doing things better--re-writing Sonic 06 so that Mephiles has less of a Complexity Addiction in his plans, Elise doesn't get captured several times in one game or kiss Sonic so that it reduces the whole "beastiality" meme it created, and Sonic is more active in the crux of the antagonist's plans instead of having a story almost separate from it; re-writing ShTH so that it goes further into detail over his creation and past, and remove the whole Alien backstory of his that made him a joke (you can still keep the Black Arms in a completely different form with strongly similar motives tho, like say the X-Nauts from Paper Mario or like Sigma and Dr. Weil's forces in Megaman X and Zero); or Heroes could be less stupid and contradicting with its whole "Power of TEAMWORK" gimmick as the teams fight each other over the same damn thing.

Of course, that's only if you're willing to keep the spirit of these things intact while retelling their stories and making them...you know, good? Which is definitely possible despite how much people want to resist acknowledging them regardless of any chance to do so. I don't think we should ditch the bad parts in essence, but rather look at the bad parts, see what made them bad, and revise/retool/remake them so that they're actually good. Ya know, learning from your mistakes so that you can do better? Like if you wanted to do something, say score well in a math test, you don't just give up when you take your first test (or second, or third, you get the idea) and you get an F or a D for a grade, you make an effort to study where you struggled and apply what you've learned in order to do better next time--that's essentially the same as simply writing better plots next time, but it can also apply to a reboot by simply taking the class again and making an earnest effort to do better so that you actually pass the class.

Plenty of other franchises have done similar things that Sonic has done without suffering any poor quality to them to the extent Sonic has--Pokemon is one such franchise, going from a kid on an adventure to be a master and adding genetic superweapons created by powerhungry organizations for world domination (and a backstory where said superweapon's sister figure tragically dies), super-powerful aliens that can cause mayhem and destruction to the world, and so forth. It's even done reboots and retcons as well, both to good and bad extents. Mario to an extent as well...although he's done them somewhat differently (I don't think there's any genetic superweapons in his series, but there are super powerful demons that try to conquer the world if the Shadow Queen is any indicator).

Long story short, a reboot isn't going to fix everything. It won't erase the past, it won't stop the memes, and if you just throw stuff away because "it's bad" in your eyes as oppose to analyzing the problems and learn from it you'll risk further alienating many groups that you're trying to appeal or market to. It's nothing short of a nuclear option that might turn people off at worst, and most certainly isn't gonna make people who hate the franchise or specific aspects of it like it again. But that's not to say it doesn't have its benefits as I mentioned above, and one doesn't need to go so far as to throw everything away than they would remake them into something better. That said, I wouldn't mind a reboot so long as I get the things I like and the things I don't like are made better, but I don't think that's the only option here.

[Multikaris]

14 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

I miss Sonic games having a consistent narrative; and the only outlet left is likely being cancelled.

Oh well. 

Boom also has one (in the current season), but:

 

1) The show is also on its last legs (IN AMERICA!, at least...)

2) The narrative itself is kinda poor, with some episodes having little to do with it. 

 

Spoiler

(Well, the show did just bring back the Smart Knuckles dimension only to imply its destruction, for example)

 

Edited April 25, 2017 by Nepenthe
spoilers

[Zippo]

15 minutes ago, It's a Very Merry Miru said:

Boom also has one (in the current season), but:

 

1) The show is also on its last legs (IN AMERICA!, at least...)

2) The narrative itself is kinda poor, with some episodes having little to do with it. 

 

(Well, the show did just bring back the Smart Knuckles dimension only to imply its destruction, for example)

Though it's likely both are being cancelled, I think Indigo is referring to the Archie Comics. 

[Roger_van_der_weide]

I think what's needed isn't so much a reboot as just a game that really sits down and re-establishes the status quo again.
Kinda what Sonic adventure did, Sonic Adventure 1 didn't "reboot" the series, but it did start in a neutral positon and let us see the characters in their daily lives in their natural habitat doing their thing for a bit before kicking off the plot. Something like that would really help, because at this point I have no idea what the status quo is anymore.

Well, Sonic is "Hero" because 'main character of game' and Eggman is "bad guy" because 'final boss'. And "they say funny things because they look weird". But dig any deeper then that, and you get lost.

With the little continuity we get feeling more like a shopping list of meta references about game mechanics and memes of the previous games more so then treating them like an actual story foundation. That freaking Lego Dimensions, the non canon spin off about Lego's is the one that has the best sense of really taking place in the Sonic universe and not Sonic immediatly being whisked away to "random shapes in space land" this decade is saying something. Well okay, there's Rush adventure and Black knight, altough even they are about Sonic being whisked away to an alien dimension.

Then again, I think they're deliberatly avoiding continuity now and want to go the Mario route where each game is based on the same starting position, Mario 1, and then just does it's own thing and then resets itself again.
Which I don't have a problem with, but  even Mario usually starts off in familair territory before he get's send off to space or whatever.
At least I get the foundation of these characters and understand "Mario 1". With Sonic, I don't even know what Knuckles is or what Amy's deal is at this point.

Knuckles has been flaunderized so extremely he's basically a new character now, making references to his past practically feel out of place.
And with Amy, they're so embarresed about her old personality that they're more busy making her really really really REALLY not Old Amy Rose, more so then bothering giving her a better personality, let alone bothering to have any kind of smooth character development toward whatever she's supposed to be now.
As a result, any recollection of Amy's crush or Knuckles the guardian feels more like a reference joke to a far away distant spin off series then a genuine confirmation of who they are.
And that's just the most extreme examples, but all the characters more or less have the same case of this.

So a slower build up could help clarifying things a little bit again.
Or at least giving us a glimpse of daily life before we see the world burns in Forces.
Would help me care about what's going on, can't be invested in seeing Sonic's world being taken over by Eggman if everything has been reduces to detached distorted memories of the past.