Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, CrystalStorm51 said:

That still doesn't mean it is a good idea. Plus, I don't think Sonic is exactly in that kind of situation that it needs a new model. Maybe some things do need change, but to scrap everything entirely? That would be a waste of things, and waste is not really a good thing. A full restart isn't so necessary.

Sonic's already wasted plenty as it is. Starting over could be a chance to recycle, or maybe upcycle, some of the ideas they fucked up the first time around.

[JosepHenry]

There is no need for them to throw characters away. There is no need for a reboot.

They just need good writing.

I can easily see Shadow being a good and entertaining character, (Archie Shadow is a good example) but the writers need to do a good job, or else no one will care about him anymore.

The problem is... When we had Shadow being a major character in a good plot? (The only game I count that have a good plot is Unleashed and Black Knight... And Shadow is not even in Unleashed.)

[Shiny Gems]

Just now, Diogenes said:

Sonic's already wasted plenty as it is. Starting over could be a chance to recycle, or maybe upcycle, some of the ideas they fucked up the first time around.

That isn't really necessary, really. How are you sure it won't just make things worse? I think it would be easier to keep using what they have been using for the past 25 years instead or "Throw It All Away" (see what I did there?). I'd even say some ideas are worth trying to fix and improve, and are not hopeless to try and remedy.

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, JosepMelloZSM said:

There is no need for them to throw characters away. There is no need for a reboot.

They just need good writing.

Piling good writing on top of bad writing doesn't sound like a stable structure to me.

Just now, CrystalStorm51 said:

That isn't really necessary, really. How are you sure it won't just make things worse?

We don't, obviously. Sonic Team fucks up constantly. But 20 years of crud in the gears from poor writing, bad ideas, and a complete lack of identity isn't helping things.

[Shiny Gems]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

We don't, obviously. Sonic Team fucks up constantly. But 20 years of crud in the gears from poor writing, bad ideas, and a complete lack of identity isn't helping things.

Well, I don't think Sonic is in that bad of a state. Granted, it may not be good, either, but not bad enough to need a reboot. I am sure these problems can be fixed, even though it will take time. However, at the end of the time taken, it would be worth it more than just restarting everything, I'd say. Sometimes, just restarting things is just the easy way out, which isn't quite good.

[Joellui]

2 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Piling good writing on top of bad writing doesn't sound like a stable structure to me.

We don't, obviously. Sonic Team fucks up constantly. But 20 years of crud in the gears from poor writing, bad ideas, and a complete lack of identity isn't helping things.

Isn't that the same thing? Just getting get rid of everything and starting over isn't going to cut it. Just because you reboot something doesn't mean everyone is going to forget all the other games that has be given to us for the over 20 years, and assuming the Sonic Team does end up doing that in the end, what makes you think that they won't mess up like all the other times?

I would rather just get rid of whoever consists in the Sonic Team and bringing new people. Just because you reboot something doesn't make the game necessarily better, especially if you have the same exact people working on the games. Just rebooting the franchise would be a waste of time and effort at this point.

[Shadowlax]

Rebooting isn't going to fix the problems with sonic teams ideology. Its just gonna be new, shit.

[Diogenes]

I'm not saying there's any guarantee that a reboot would work out. I already said it's a risky move. And I don't believe that a reboot, in itself, is the solution; rebooting and making the same stupid decisions all over again obviously isn't going to work. But if they're ever going to pull their heads out of their asses and get things back on track, it'd be nice to not have 20 years of crud weighing it down. It'd be nice to have a series where things could be reintroduced with purpose rather than having an ever-expanding pile of used-up ideas sitting around. It'd be nice to have a clear vision for what the series was supposed to be instead of a bunch of failed experiments and contradictory attempts to recapture lapsed fans.

[Shadowlax]

1 hour ago, Chris Knopps said:

I've said it before but after Forces and Mania it might be for the best if the Sonic franchise vanishes for a few years.

I'm talking no games, no shows, nothing. maybe some merch, but nothing beyond that.

Then in five or ten years, bring him back and start all over again with Sonic.

Completely abandon every single thing from the franchise from 1991 to 2017 and just do a total restart on everything.

They can't do that. Its a multi-million dollar franchise, they need to be making money off this thing. The idea that people pass around that sonic needs to take a break isn't really doable, maybe put more time into making games. Sure. Games don't have to come out every year? Fine mario and zelda do the same. But 10 years is too long for a mascot character to do nothing. This isn't some artistic project you are taking on yourself, its a buisness and that's sure as hell not going to happen. And it really shouldn't. 

1 hour ago, Chris Knopps said:

No characters returning save Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, Amy and Eggman, no continuities to concern over, no reusing of old tropes.

An entirely fresh start, entirely fresh places, entirely new cast.

That's also stupid, because as mentioned before,there are characters that exist that people genuinely like. And places and things. The 2nd most popular character in the franchise comes from the dreamcast era. 

1 hour ago, Chris Knopps said:

Kill the Sonic franchise for a while, then bring it back when the time is right and tell people "Everything is gone. We're not doing any of that anymore. This is the game play of the Sonic franchise. These are the characters. This is the tone, this is the demographic." and go from there. Everything going in one single, simple direction, a cohesive direction.

That sounds like a fun way to loose all your demographics. 

1 hour ago, Chris Knopps said:

No more "Where are these characters?" because they will be gone. No more "Where are these places?" because they will be gone.

People will do that anyway

1 hour ago, Chris Knopps said:

An utter re-start for the Sonic franchise, totally new world.

People will meme sonic forever. That wont change that, they would do best to make the games they want to make and make them good. Because what the fuck does a meme mean, if i'm making money. You feel me?

[JosepHenry]

What is a reboot anyway?

Sonic '06 was supposed to be a reboot.

If you think about it Sonic Adventure, Colors or Unleashed are also reboots.

They could just forget that games like Shadow The Hedgehog and Sonic '06 existed. And that's what games like Unleashed, Colors and Lost World seemed to be doing, forgetting what was bad.

[Diogenes]

Just now, JosepMelloZSM said:

What is a reboot anyway?

Sonic '06 was supposed to be a reboot.

If you think about it Sonic Adventure, Colors or Unleashed are also a reboot.

None of those were actual reboots. They were just continuations with changed focuses. They still carried all the same baggage.

[Shadowlax]

6 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I'm not saying there's any guarantee that a reboot would work out. I already said it's a risky move. And I don't believe that a reboot, in itself, is the solution; rebooting and making the same stupid decisions all over again obviously isn't going to work.

But if they're ever going to pull their heads out of their asses and get things back on track, it'd be nice to not have 20 years of crud weighing it down. It'd be nice to have a series where things could be reintroduced with purpose rather than having an ever-expanding pile of used-up ideas sitting around.

The reboot would add to that. The reboot wouldn't be this magical thing, in a vaccume, it would exist in the same world as all those other ideas, and probably draw from them. And if it were to fail , it would exist on that same pile. 

Quote

 

It'd be nice to have a clear vision for what the series was supposed to be instead of a bunch of failed experiments and contradictory attempts to recapture lapsed fans.

I mean, I guess.But you don't need a reboot for that, you just need to do that thing nintendo has been doing successfully for years. Make different types of games in the same franchise. That literally solves that problem. 

This isn't a magical new specific problem, people have solved this problem for years. Just do that. 

 

[Diogenes]

6 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

The reboot would add to that. The reboot wouldn't be this magical thing, in a vaccume, it would exist in the same world as all those other ideas, and probably draw from them.

But it wouldn't integrate all those failed ideas and executions into itself by default. People would compare the two, sure, you can't ever wipe the slate completely clean, but people can recognize when a series is trying to make a clean break from its past. Just look at the reactions to Mania, people can see how it's distancing itself from all the crud that's built up in the series and how it's gone back to basics for the better.

6 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

I mean, I guess.But you don't need a reboot for that, you just need to do that thing nintendo has been doing successfully for years. Make different types of games in the same franchise. That literally solves that problem. 

This isn't a magical new specific problem, people have solved this problem for years. Just do that. 

Nintendo hasn't "solved" this problem because it's never had this problem. No Nintendo series is anywhere near as broken as Sonic has become. And making a bunch of different kinds of games is part of what's ruined Sonic.

[Kintor]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

But it wouldn't integrate all those failed ideas and executions into itself by default. People would compare the two, sure, you can't ever wipe the slate completely clean, but people can recognize when a series is trying to make a clean break from its past. Just look at the reactions to Mania, people can see how it's distancing itself from all the crud that's built up in the series and how it's gone back to basics for the better.

Try as you might you're never going to create an alternate reality where the Sonic games you hate no longer exist. Even a reboot can't erase the past, if anything it'd make things worse since the public has become extremely wary of anything using the word 'reboot'; you have Hollywood to thank for that one. The only way forward is to build upon everything that the Sonic franchise has achieved in its long history. Sonic Forces is a step in the right direction because it's building upon the success of Sonic games from Sonic Unleashed to Generations, which was a high point for the franchise before the mistakes of Lost World and Sonic Boom.

[Shadowlax]

11 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

But it wouldn't integrate all those failed ideas and executions into itself by default. People would compare the two, sure, you can't ever wipe the slate completely clean, but people can recognize when a series is trying to make a clean break from its past. Just look at the reactions to Mania, people can see how it's distancing itself from all the crud that's built up in the series and how it's gone back to basics for the better.

.

Sonic mania has hype because there hasn't been an actual classic sonic game in years. If it looked like an ass classic sonic game it would be in the same place as the rest. 

also your statement kind of completely ignores, say for example people getting hype over 3d sonic games. 

Your points seem to always , almost magically completely ignore that the reason that the thing you complain about even exists is because people like different versions of sonic. You as a business can't just go " well fuck everyone else" because that's money, and if you actually do that, you might not ever make back that money. 

[JosepHenry]

And there is also the fact what you say is bad, maybe is not for a lot of people

I consider ShadowTH and '06 as the bad things that should be forgotten.

How about you? Do you like SA1 or SA2?  A big part of the fanbase likes those games.

What character do you like? Shadow? Silver? Blaze? A big part of the fanbase likes those characters too!

If they made a reboot and removed those characters or the Adventure games from the "timeline", Sonic Team is going to forget their fans from the late 90's to early 2000's. While the Adventure era of the series had a lot of flaws, is still has fans and deserves to be treated well as the classic era is.

[StaticMania]

3 minutes ago, JosepMelloZSM said:

If they made a reboot and removed those characters...

A reboot doesn't necessarily mean getting rid of existing characters...that's the one thing that isn't guaranteed.

 

There's always a possibility of those characters getting re-introduced, but different.

[Zaysho]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

But if they're ever going to pull their heads out of their asses and get things back on track, it'd be nice to not have 20 years of crud weighing it down. It'd be nice to have a series where things could be reintroduced with purpose rather than having an ever-expanding pile of used-up ideas sitting around. It'd be nice to have a clear vision for what the series was supposed to be instead of a bunch of failed experiments and contradictory attempts to recapture lapsed fans.

I don't think these things necessitate a reboot or anything. At the very least, not a hard one. I think a change in direction, keeping in mind the things that work and developing ideas they've underutilized and giving the series a loose sense of continuity (it should still be episodic, but there are always threads to continue from if something comes up that gives them a use for a particular character or setting without running them into the ground) would be a way to go. Better writing and design are all the series needs to build the world, develop the characters, and have things to actually draw new plots and gameplay ideas from without having to constantly reinvent the wheel and distorting the series' identity.

The comics did this just fine. The old universe brought in a new writer who took all the crap most people criticized the book for and turned it around into something more interesting to read and making a tangled knot of continuity far more accessible to new readers or even people who just fell out of it. The new continuity (a result of legal problems outside of anyone's control) takes the established lore of the games and constructs a timeline of those events and works them into its own story, giving little glimpses of things most people otherwise forgot about and actually trying to make sense of the game world's geography by mapping old settings to new places that were later established in Unleashed.

And I think that can inform the gameplay since we have a wide variety of settings to throw Sonic and pals into.

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

Sonic mania has hype because there hasn't been an actual classic sonic game in years. If it looked like an ass classic sonic game it would be in the same place as the rest. 

You don't have to talk to me as if I don't understand that shitty games are bad.

And the point of a reboot would be to reintroduce things in a way that makes them better than they are now. That includes things that I don't like. This is not "Dio gets everything he wants and fuck everyone else", this is "take the best parts of the series, ditch the bad parts, and replace them with something better". And I think, if actually done well, that would have a better chance of pleasing more people than continuing on with the clusterfuck we have now. It's not like practically everyone doesn't feel like they're being left out already. Adventure fans complain all the time about how they're not catered to, Modern fans freaked when they saw Mania thinking they wouldn't get a game for themselves and freaked again when Classic Sonic showed up in the Forces teaser, and until Mania all classic fans got were cheap, surface-level throwbacks.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

But then you still wouldn't really need to reboot the series to do that. You can fix-something in-canon without literally scrapping the old. 

[Nepenthe]

A reboot won't do anything that better quality control won't do.

It doesn't make the bad games go away. ShtH and Sonic 06 will always physically and culturally exist no matter what Sonic Team does from here on out. They will always be referenced as jokes, because that's what they are.

It doesn't affect future attempts at writing because the games have developed a tendency to stop referring back to themselves in any meaningful manner. Fresh slates are inherently built into the way the franchise works because it's now episodic. It's like stressing over how to figure out how to make a Tom and Jerry movie due to the decades of shorts that exist beforehand. You just make one. 

The only thing a reboot honestly does that better writing doesn't is satisfy people who just want certain things to not be in the franchise anymore as ordained by the higher ups. And honestly, fuck that. I've been yielding ground for nearly a decade to people who hate almost everything I remotely like about the franchise. You people are stuck with Shadow and you're gonna fucking deal with it.

[Meta77]

14 minutes ago, JosepMelloZSM said:

And there is also the fact what you say is bad, maybe is not for a lot of people

I consider ShadowTH and '06 as the bad things that should be forgotten.

How about you? Do you like SA1 or SA2?  A big part of the fanbase likes those games.

What character do you like? Shadow? Silver? Blaze? A big part of the fanbase likes those characters too!

If they made a reboot and removed those characters or the Adventure games from the "timeline", Sonic Team is going to forget their fans from the late 90's to early 2000's. While the Adventure era of the series had a lot of flaws, is still has fans and deserves to be treated well as the classic era is.

I consider 06 a good thing. You can not learn if you do not take risk. 06 did some things right. *made actual good looking humans instead of mii figures*, had good cgi *not in game. in game was horrible* and a fantastic musical score and some great boss scale fights. The rest of the game was a mess but hey looking back on it im glad they did it. As I have said before and will say again no sonic game has ever had as good a hype of a e3 trailer as that game did. 

Regardless forces is going to need to be hella good to keep having games prices at 60

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

It doesn't affect future attempts at writing because the games have developed a tendency to stop referring back to themselves in any meaningful manner.

Yeah but part of the problem is that we shouldn't be in that position, we shouldn't have things related to a character's origins be relegated to "old trash we ignore", those things should be something to build on. A reboot would be an opportunity to revitalize those origins and legitimately grow from there instead of leaving them buried.

7 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

The only thing a reboot honestly does that better writing doesn't is satisfy people who just want certain things to not be in the franchise anymore as ordained by the higher ups. And honestly, fuck that. I've been yielding ground for nearly a decade to people who hate almost everything I remotely like about the franchise. You people are stuck with Shadow and you're gonna fucking deal with it.

I'm not even saying "get rid of Shadow", I'm saying "start over and do justice to Shadow". Cut the crap that made him the joke that he is, replace it with something stronger and more coherent.

[Dejimon11]

What really is there to reboot with Sonic tho? It's not like the games have an ongoing plot or something like that. I just imagined that Sonic is a franchise where you can do whatever you want with it. 

[JosepHenry]

13 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

You don't have to talk to me as if I don't understand that shitty games are bad.

And the point of a reboot would be to reintroduce things in a way that makes them better than they are now. That includes things that I don't like. This is not "Dio gets everything he wants and fuck everyone else", this is "take the best parts of the series, ditch the bad parts, and replace them with something better". And I think, if actually done well, that would have a better chance of pleasing more people than continuing on with the clusterfuck we have now. It's not like practically everyone doesn't feel like they're being left out already. Adventure fans complain all the time about how they're not catered to, Modern fans freaked when they saw Mania thinking they wouldn't get a game for themselves and freaked again when Classic Sonic showed up in the Forces teaser, and until Mania all classic fans got were cheap, surface-level throwbacks.

To be fair, as much as the nostalgia throwback to the classic series before Mania was... bad, Adventure fans didn't had anything for them since..... '06.