Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Diogenes]

It's also worth noting that nobody likes Wing Fortress.

Well, I don't mind it. I think there's a nice rhythm in going back and forth between dangerous and safe areas, and thematically it's cool to have a whole level around going in, out, and around this one big ship.

I certainly wouldn't hold it up as ideal design, though.

[Jango]

I see a lot of complaints, but no real suggestions of how to fix it, because before the fan game Sonic Utopia appeared, people were claiming that the way to fix 3D Sonic was make the levels wider and with lots of places to go and explore. And what did most people said about Utopia? That they didn't like it.

Sonic Team knows how to make good levels and all the biggest flaws in gameplay have already been taken care of. It's just a matter of direction now.

[Wraith]

I've mostly seen praise for Sonic Utopia though. The worst people have said that the level is TOO big, but there's a lot of middle ground between that and Sonic Team's hallways 

[Diogenes]

Just now, Jango said:

I see a lot of complaints, but no real suggestions of how to fix it, because before the fan game Sonic Utopia appeared, people were claiming that the way to fix 3D Sonic was make the levels wider and with lots of places to go and explore. And what did most people said about Utopia? That they didn't like it.

Maybe design levels somewhere between "claustrophobic" and "small country"? Good game design isn't easy, man, and it's often esoteric enough that it can't really be put into words. I can at least say that Heroes' style of narrow paths surrounded by death pits is shit, though.

Just now, Jango said:

Sonic Team knows how to make good levels and all the biggest flaws in gameplay have already been taken care of.

I...would disagree. Strongly.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

24 minutes ago, Jango said:

I see a lot of complaints, but no real suggestions of how to fix it, because before the fan game Sonic Utopia appeared, people were claiming that the way to fix 3D Sonic was make the levels wider and with lots of places to go and explore. And what did most people said about Utopia? That they didn't like it.

Sonic Team knows how to make good levels and all the biggest flaws in gameplay have already been taken care of. It's just a matter of direction now.

Utopia's flaws are not only that it's too big for some, but that it doesn't have much reward to it exploration, and it's direction is too subtle for people to know where they should move forward to. But that ignores that despite these flaws, it's a test game meant to explore a concept and potentially find areas to improve while Heroes is a full game that was doing as much as possible to feel complete.

All in all, not the best comparison. But there's more to designing a game than a binary "Open world" or "Linear path".

[Jango]

Exactly, because no matter what, people would still complain. ^^

Amazing you say you disagree strongly,@Diogenes. Certainly we still have bad camera, slippery and unresponsive controls and such. The truth is, Sonic Team always screw over because they decide to add an unnecessary/notfunatall gimmick...

[Diogenes]

And they keep adding bad gimmicks in part because they have no idea how to make a good Sonic game.

[Scar]

32 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

And they keep adding bad gimmicks in part because they have no idea how to make a good Sonic game.

Yes, they wouldn't feel the need to add pointless shit into the game if the base game was good enough by itself. There are flaws every time. At the very least they seem to acknowledge the fact that there are flaws and try to fix it. Problem is they try too hard and start going too far.

[Jango]

And they keep adding bad gimmicks in part because they have no idea how to make a good Sonic game.

Yes, they wouldn't feel the need to add pointless shit into the game if the base game was good enough by itself. There are flaws every time. At the very least they seem to acknowledge the fact that there are flaws and try to fix it. Problem is they try too hard and start going too far.

Nah. They are crazy mother dockers, seriously. Hell, which base game wouldn't be good enough to make them want to add an entire level where you control a SNOWBALL? They trip dude. They trip and I really want to know if it's on purpose.

[Chris Knopps]

I'll be the odd man out and say there's nothing wrong with any of the game play elements they've used in this franchise

The classic titles, the Adventure titles, the Modern titles, every game play used has been great...

BUT...!!

Not necessarily for a Sonic game. Over the years it has been noted that being a "Sonic Sweatshop" is an issue between SEGA and Sonic Team and it's also a well known issue that Mr. Iizuka and others would love to work on other games, but due to the very name of their branch, that opportunity to do so is few and far between.

Thus...

You have shooting in Sonic ala the Adventure and Shadow titles, you have the extremely NiGHTS harkening Lost World title...

I think all of the game play we've seen has been great, just not exactly perfect for Sonic, but since Sonic is all/mostly what Mr. Iizuka and the others alongside him are allowed to work on, they have to put their "dreams" for other games into Sonic instead and have had to find some way to make it "look" and "feel" like Sonic in the process.

Likely the only way they can keep from going mad/quitting the franchise after so many years of it being their solo-permitted focus by and large, but... This last line is just me talking the way I would feel after so many years of being told "MAKE SONIC!!" every time I wanted to bring up doing another game...

[Shadowlax]

To be fair, I don't think people would mind if those things were good. 

People talk about sonic adventure 3, hypothetically all the time. When the riders, spin offs came out, before they got ruined people thought they were neat enough. If they had planned some stuff better and actually made better games, I feel like the reception to some ideas... would be better. Its why I suggested , just make spin off games again. But this time, make them good. Sometimes all you have to do is just do it well. Hell with spin off games, you wouldn't even have to adhere for it being great for a " sonic game" it would just need to be... great. 

As for workshop conditions, and sega not being able to plan? Yeah, and it was still happening until very recently. So that tells you something.

23 hours ago, Diogenes said:

And they keep adding bad gimmicks in part because they have no idea how to make a good Sonic game.

I think they do , I don't think they know that the know. 

And that's the problem

I remember a ruby eclipse quote about friend characters " We need to make sure you get sonic gameplay down first" You did... twice, it was called colors and generations 3d gameplay. You did it, twice.... just do that.  And that's where I went " oh no, they don't understand why people think those games are good" and now I as of currently have no hope for this game. And the trailer, or teaser for it kind of points to that as well. Like they don't understand, or haven't bothered to understand... why people like parts of the franchise they do. 

[Zippo]

Doubt it's a hint of anything, but i still found this to be pretty cool.

Uekewa's still got it.

 

[Badnik Mechanic]

One of Hoshino's charaters (Metal Sonic, Amy, Shadow), will likely have a cameo in the game.

*teased via twitch*

[Fr0zenanus]

was that stream just there just for an announcement of an cameo?

c.mon they should know they were going use all that stream time for maybe some exciting footage for like, co-op for mania, possibly split-screen.

[Kellan]

"Cameo"? Not "Important to the story"?

I miss the other characters.

[Jango]

One of Hoshino's charaters (Metal Sonic, Amy, Shadow), will likely have a cameo in the game.

*teased via twitch*

Amy can't be a cameo, I mean, she slightly became a main character... I can see Metal Sonic as a cameo. Maybe Shadow.

[Dejimon11]

Edit: Wait sorry I thought that this was the Mania thread. Ignore me

Sonic this is is technically an anniversary I'm sure most of the characters are going to appear in some shape or form. 

[Dr. Detective]

Spin the roulette wheel of Hoshino's characters.

Whichever one it lands on will get a cameo.

Maybe. 

They'll stand in the corner against the white void or some shit. I dunno.

Basically, I'm not getting my hopes up for anything just yet.

[Pawn]

18 hours ago, Jango said:

Amy can't be a cameo, I mean, she slightly became a main character... I can see Metal Sonic as a cameo. Maybe Shadow.

Going by recent games, I'd say it's likely that Amy will cameo. The other two, if present, almost always have important roles to play.

[JayRaR]

On 2/2/2017 at 4:37 PM, Jango said:

Amy can't be a cameo, I mean, she slightly became a main character... I can see Metal Sonic as a cameo. Maybe Shadow.

In my mind, Amy in Sonic Lost World is a cameo.

Anyone's possible, but this is not good news to me however.

[Ellipsis-Ultima]

Pretty disappointed it's a cameo appearance. I was hoping they were gonna have a better role, like getting involved in the crisis or something, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Chris Knopps]

Amy will cameo as the damsel in distress, Metal will be the kidnapper, Shadow will be sitting on a rooftop watching the world end since he put his past and his debt to Maria behind him, and Robotnik/Eggman has gone bat sh@$ insane after losing so many times and doesn't care about conquering anymore, just wants to destroy everything and die laughing maniacally himself in the process.

P17 in a nutshell?

[Bowbowis]

8 hours ago, Chris Knopps said:

Shadow will be sitting on a rooftop watching the world end since he put his past and his debt to Maria behind him.

I fail to see how Shadow putting his past behind him would lead to him to just sitting on a rooftop and watching the world burn. Though even that would require that SEGA cared enough to actually remember what Shadow's motivations were in the first place.

If Shadow appears in Sonic '17 he'll probably be characterized the same way he has been since Free Riders. Which is to say he'll randomly turn up to try and murder Sonic for having friends, treat everybody like crap, and then go steal candy from a baby for kicks.

[Shadowlax]

2 hours ago, Bowbowis said:

I fail to see how Shadow putting his past behind him would lead to him to just sitting on a rooftop and watching the world burn. Though even that would require that SEGA cared enough to actually remember what Shadow's motivations were in the first place.

If Shadow appears in Sonic '17 he'll probably be characterized the same way he has been since Free Riders. Which is to say he'll randomly turn up to try and murder Sonic for having friends, treat everybody like crap, and then go steal candy from a baby for kicks.

There is hope. 

Sonic boom did that ( whether that was the intention of ROL i doubt it because that game is missing large sections of it, including narrative ), and spent the japanese translation of the game, next game, and episode shadow appears in  trying to characterize his as not that. 

Someone saw that and went " Nah we went too far" 

Also as silly as shadows's mission in the lego game was, he seemed less like a dick. I don't think we will ever get an ok knuckles back, but it kind of feels like someone went " We might have forgot why people actually like this character" and tried to pull back

Knuckles is doomed though

[Chris Knopps]

I think the problem is the Japanese division has tried to cast aside the identities of the cast that was originally crafted to cater toward western tastes, save Sonic who has maintained his original western persona for the most part.

Knuckles appeals to the Japanese love for your stereotypical strong = dumb character and Shadow is just your usual edgy/kawaii hybrid that makes various girl factions scream. You see it pretty often in anime and it's likely attempts to get the ever failing Japanese markets into Sonic that resulted in Lost World.

The more they try appealing to the lacking Japanese audiences though, the more they lose the western audiences, and Lost World is somewhat proof of that.