Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[NeoZero]

On 04/02/2017 at 5:43 PM, Chris Knopps said:

I think the problem is the Japanese division has tried to cast aside the identities of the cast that was originally crafted to cater toward western tastes, save Sonic who has maintained his original western persona for the most part.

Knuckles appeals to the Japanese love for your stereotypical strong = dumb character and Shadow is just your usual edgy/kawaii hybrid that makes various girl factions scream. You see it pretty often in anime and it's likely attempts to get the ever failing Japanese markets into Sonic that resulted in Lost World.

The more they try appealing to the lacking Japanese audiences though, the more they lose the western audiences, and Lost World is somewhat proof of that.

Nope, because since Black Knight Americans have been writing everything, and it's been since Black Knight that Knuckles has become an idiot.

[Indigo Rush]

On 2/6/2017 at 5:36 PM, JosepMelloZSM said:

I'll be disappointed. Just a bit. I'll punch the screen and spam "Sonic is dead" until I'm banned.

he's very much alive

 

Otherwise yeah Sonic plots have been really lackluster lately. Colors was a good breath of fresh air. We can go back to more involving narratives now, please.

[Melania]

Forgive me for my opinion, I am very, very sorry if I upset anyone.

I think Sonic games are best without plots, I just want the games to focus on gameplay. Again, I am very, very sorry if I upset someone and this is just my opinion. But this is what I personally would like to see.

[Sonic+Shadow+Silver=OP]

8 minutes ago, Melania said:

Forgive me for my opinion, I am very, very sorry if I upset anyone.

I think Sonic games are best without plots, I just want the games to focus on gameplay. Again, I am very, very sorry if I upset someone and this is just my opinion. But this is what I personally would like to see.

On the other hand, I don't really think that the game would make sense without any plots. They already do kind of focus on game play quite a lot.

By the way, you don't need to apologise for just stating your opinion on the game, it's not offensive or anything.

[JosepHenry]

9 minutes ago, Melania said:

Forgive me for my opinion, I am very, very sorry if I upset anyone.

I think Sonic games are best without plots, I just want the games to focus on gameplay. Again, I am very, very sorry if I upset someone and this is just my opinion. But this is what I personally would like to see.

There is no problem with that, is perfectly understandable.

I think they have time this time (that sounded horrible) to do a good story, the game is not going to be rushed, so we probably can see a more complete plot.

[Diogenes]

1 hour ago, NeoZero said:

Nope, because since Black Knight Americans have been writing everything, and it's been since Black Knight that Knuckles has become an idiot.

Knuckles has been an idiot since 3&K, man.

[Dejimon11]

No he wasn't he was gullible not an idiot huge difference. Him getting tricked by Eggman in S3&K was a result of him being on an Island by himself and Eggman was the first person that he met. 

[TheOcelot]

I'd like to see a more complex story, something closer to Unleashed. There's no need to go Sonic 06 crazy, just make it enjoyable, at least include Amy, Tails & Knuckles. If it must have time-travel (to explain classic Sonic's appearance) then fine, but no need to overcomplicate things. 

When I first watched the trailer I liked the prospect of an apocalyptic story where Sonic has formed "The Resistance" an army of freedom fighters, the last stand between freedom and Eggman taking over completely. Maybe something inspired from SatAM....

Then of course classic Sonic shows up and I'm left scratching my head as to what on earth the story could be. Maybe Eggman has done something which has caused time to collapse which is why classic Sonic shows up. This is going into dangerous Generations inspired-plot territory and of course Project 2017 is not Generations 2/not an anniversary game.

Maybe Modern Sonic just sends a message to the past and requests classic Sonic's assistance, but if that's the case why can't Knuckles and Tails help him (yeah we know Sonic Team are reluctant to make other characters playable again)? They can be just as helpful as classic Sonic. *inb4* Sonic's friends have all been conveniently captured...again

[JosepHenry]

Knuckles was always guillble and goofy, the only game that he isn't like that is SA1 and SA2, but even SA2 had his goofy moments. Even in 06' when Sonic dies he runs to the wrong direction.

Did Aaron said that people are doing a good thing analyzing the teaser? So maybe the colored buildings falling mean something?.... Tails and Knuckles?....

 

[Chris Knopps]

2 hours ago, Indigo Rush said:

he's very much alive

 

Otherwise yeah Sonic plots have been really lackluster lately. Colors was a good breath of fresh air. We can go back to more involving narratives now, please.

My thoughts PRECISELY and also why I have an issue with that continuing in titles ever since. After games like Shadow and 06, we got the Unleashed title which, to me, is the absolute peak of perfection for plot in the franchise, and because of this being the peak, that's likely why things have been slacking ever since. When you do something on the level of Unleashed with Sonic, it's a really tough thing to repeat, especially when you consider it may be possible the company isn't exactly allowing such a grand budget for the franchise anymore with various shifts in focus, so with smaller funding, something on par with Unleashed is very unlikely.

(I'm just trying to give them a valid excuse though.)

Then after that, there was Colors as you said which toned everything down, extraordinarily in comparison to Shadow and 06 and still much more in compared to Unleashed, with the later having over an hours worth of cut scenes making it a full blown film and game all in one, and Colors having around half an hour if I'm remembering correctly.

Unleashed was made to reboot the atmosphere/tone of the franchise and Colors further reboot things with its much smaller plot/script and the emphasis on jokes and puns. Between these two games was likely the time SoJ and ST realized "Yeah, funny. Funny is good. Simple is cheap too... This works!" and thus things continued shrinking in scale from there.

On down the line we reached the point where "simple and cheap" began affecting not only the plot of the game, but also the general scope of the games themselves, hence Generations general size and Lost World filled with nothing but bits and pieces of blocks and spirals surrounded by pretty lackluster/empty feeling backgrounds.

However, that's the same time they were likely struck with the realization that "simple and cheap saves money, but people stop buying..." because of the later titles performance on the market, hence the upcoming Project 2017 title which looks to revert back to an Unleashed experience, with the hope that the budget is returning to insure, along with its potentially grander scope, it has the workforce and polish required to make it really great.

The extraordinary sales of Colors falsely emphasized that simple/cheap plots were profitable, an unfortunate reasoning SoJ/ST concluded and had backfire on them in the end making Colors, essentially, a one-time fluke, a pure stroke of luck basically that hit at the perfect moment. It was fantastic as a one-time break from what we had, but they took the titles sales as meaning it should remain the direction of the franchise, and therein lies the issue.

Fans wanted a break but NOT a permanent vacation, and thus, again, tally ho Project 2017!

[Wraith]

35 minutes ago, Dejimon11 said:

No he wasn't he was gullible not an idiot huge difference. Him getting tricked by Eggman in S3&K was a result of him being on an Island by himself and Eggman was the first person that he met. 

What about when it happened again in SA1? Or when he continued to be boneheaded in the games after?

I think people kind of refuse to accept that Knuckles is kind of a goofball inherently. This doesn't have to be a bad thing, guys.

[Chris Knopps]

4 minutes ago, Josh said:

What about when it happened again in SA1? Or when he continued to be boneheaded in the games after?

I think people kind of refuse to accept that Knuckles is kind of a goofball inherently. This doesn't have to be a bad thing, guys.

"Kind of a goofball" is good but blundering idiot is likely what's setting fans off lately. It doesn't help seeing him slapped into a tree by Amy and such. That's pathetic in a very unappealing way for his character.

(A preference would be to see him grab Amy's hand with a "don't even" remark before walking off, better characterization)

Him being a bit slow isn't so bad really. He's still a tad new to other people and interactions, but there should still be higher standards for his capabilities and level of intelligence nonetheless.

[JosepHenry]

Oh, come on, him being slapped into a tree by Amy was just a small joke!

Anyway, Knuckles was always a goofball and that's why I love him.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, JosepMelloZSM said:

Oh, come on, him being slapped into a tree by Amy was just a small joke!

Anyway, Knuckles was always a goofball and that's why I love him.

Oh, I know. I'm just speaking based on the initial response fans had to how easily he was swat aside. It wasn't too favorable a moment for Knuckles fans. I don't have a personal beef with it happening, but I can understand why there are those who feel it shouldn't have happened. He's like a brick breaking ninja so more strength and reflexes are kind of an expectation from him.

(Remember, he's always watching you...)

[JosepHenry]

We don't Knuckles isn't in action since 2009, that's true. Hopefully we can see him doing what he does in P17... While still being a goofball. 

[Wraith]

I don't mind when Knuckles being goofy is emphasized. I think it's meant to contrast how Sonic is sharp despite his lack of traditional fighting skills or anything. He basically just charges into things, but he uses his brain to find weak points and shit. Knuckles is more well rounded fighting wise but probably wouldn't exploit a weakness as hard as Sonic does.

The problem is more that Knuckles is never put into situations that show all sides of his character. It's just the goofball side of him.

[NeoZero]

Gullability and idocy are different, though. His intelligence isn't gauged by his lack of social interaction, and therefore he'd be naive.

[Diogenes]

Dude trusts a random stranger he finds on his isolated island just after the appearance of the "dragon's egg" (Death Egg) that was foretold to bring doom to the island. The "egg" with the stranger's face on it. Which the stranger starts repairing. Also the stranger enslaves the island's animals and firebombs a jungle. But he's just gullible, right? He couldn't have possibly understood those warning signs.

But then by the end of the game, Eggman's shown his true colors by stealing the Master Emerald right in front of him, and Sonic's proven himself by stopping Eggman and returning the emerald, so Knuckles obviously knows who to trust now, right?

Except no, in the next game he gets tricked again. All Eggman has to say is "hey yo Sonic's stealing your emerald shards!" and Knuckles believes him.

He's fucking stupid, guys. He's always been stupid. That doesn't mean he's a bad character and it doesn't mean there isn't still room to criticize his characterization in later games, but can we please stop acting like they suddenly and for no reason "made" him stupid?

[Melania]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Dude trusts a random stranger he finds on his isolated island just after the appearance of the "dragon's egg" (Death Egg) that was foretold to bring doom to the island. The "egg" with the stranger's face on it. Which the stranger starts repairing. Also the stranger enslaves the island's animals and firebombs a jungle. But he's just gullible, right? He couldn't have possibly understood those warning signs.

But then by the end of the game, Eggman's shown his true colors by stealing the Master Emerald right in front of him, and Sonic's proven himself by stopping Eggman and returning the emerald, so Knuckles obviously knows who to trust now, right?

Except no, in the next game he gets tricked again. All Eggman has to say is "hey yo Sonic's stealing your emerald shards!" and Knuckles believes him.

He's fucking stupid, guys. He's always been stupid. That doesn't mean he's a bad character and it doesn't mean there isn't still room to criticize his characterization in later games, but can we please stop acting like they suddenly and for no reason "made" him stupid?

It's not that they made him stupid out of nowhere, he always used to have a pretty dim side to him. However, he wasn't always a complete moron and used to be pretty crafty. In S3AK, he was constantly laying traps for Sonic and tricking him with guile. 

But it's not really that we are mad that Knuckles has 'suddenly' become stupid, it's the ridiculous level that they emphasise his stupidity nowadays. His counting his own fingers and just downright moronic nature in Sonic Boom, for example, is far, far beyond what he was like in any Sonic title before Sonic 06. 

I'm very sorry if this seemed confrontational or hurtful, but I just want to let you know what a lot of us fans think.

 

[Chris Knopps]

10 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Dude trusts a random stranger he finds on his isolated island just after the appearance of the "dragon's egg" (Death Egg) that was foretold to bring doom to the island. The "egg" with the stranger's face on it. Which the stranger starts repairing. Also the stranger enslaves the island's animals and firebombs a jungle. But he's just gullible, right? He couldn't have possibly understood those warning signs.

But then by the end of the game, Eggman's shown his true colors by stealing the Master Emerald right in front of him, and Sonic's proven himself by stopping Eggman and returning the emerald, so Knuckles obviously knows who to trust now, right?

Except no, in the next game he gets tricked again. All Eggman has to say is "hey yo Sonic's stealing your emerald shards!" and Knuckles believes him.

He's fucking stupid, guys. He's always been stupid. That doesn't mean he's a bad character and it doesn't mean there isn't still room to criticize his characterization in later games, but can we please stop acting like they suddenly and for no reason "made" him stupid?

I think you're confusing gullibility with stupidity Dio...

Two entirely different characteristics.

(Edit)

For instance it's HIGHLY doubtable present day Knuckles would have the capacity to use any of the traps back on Angel Island as tactfully as he did in Sonic 3 & Knuckles, if he had the capacity to use them at all... He was a crafty mo-fo back in that game. As far as his clumsiness ala falling when the Death Egg launches, as an example, that's a circumstantial accident, not stupidity.

[FriendBot]

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

I think you're confusing gullibility with stupidity Dio...

Two entirely different characteristics.

There's nothing gullible about Knuckles trusting Eggman in Adventure, that's straight up idiotic.

[Chris Knopps]

4 minutes ago, Soni said:

There's nothing gullible about Knuckles trusting Eggman in Adventure, that's straight up idiotic.

Not exactly.

Keep in mind that in Sonic Adventure that was only the SECOND time Eggman had ever tricked Knuckles like that.

With his reclusive lifestyle away from anyone, that's more of a "second chance" deal instead of stupidity. Eggman, evil as he is, was still the first person Knuckles had seen in his life basically. So it was still within the time frame of his life where... Yeah... Maybe it's worth giving a second chance.

Kind of like a Batman/Joker relationship.

The whole "Again with tricked by Eggman?!" gag was caused primarily by Sonic X which isn't canon to the games and really shouldn't be considered as such. In the game canon the times it has happened is really minimal.

[Diogenes]

Just now, Melania said:

It's not that they made him stupid out of nowhere, he always used to have a pretty dim side to him. However, he wasn't always a complete moron and used to be pretty crafty. In S3AK, he was constantly laying traps for Sonic and tricking him with guile. 

List of "traps" and "tricks" in 3&K:

• busts a bridge
• busts a bridge, again
• turns off the lights
• throws a bomb
• punches the eggmobile (to no effect)
• turns on a fan
• pushes a boulder

None of that is especially clever.

Just now, Melania said:

But it's not really that we are mad that Knuckles has 'suddenly' become stupid, it's the ridiculous level that they emphasise his stupidity nowadays.

How often does this even happen? And is it actually any more often than they used to?

Just now, Melania said:

His counting his own fingers and just downright moronic nature in Sonic Boom, for example, is far, far beyond what he was like in any Sonic title before Sonic 06. 

Boom Knuckles is a completely different Knuckles. You can dislike the character, but it's a separate matter from main series Knuckles.

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

I think you're confusing gullibility with stupidity Dio...

Two entirely different characteristics.

Is there no point where a character is stupid for being tricked? Regardless of how obvious it is? It's hard enough to argue that ignoring the massive warning signs in 3&K was just being gullible, but being tricked again in SA is clearly over the line.

1 minute ago, Chris Knopps said:

Not exactly.

Keep in mind that in Sonic Adventure that was only the SECOND time Eggman had ever tricked Knuckles like that.

With his reclusive lifestyle away from anyone, that's more of a "second chance" deal instead of stupidity. Eggman, evil as he is, was still the first person Knuckles had seen in his life basically. So it was still within the time frame of his life where... Yeah... Maybe it's worth giving a second chance.

Kind of like a Batman/Joker relationship.

Sonic, on the other hand, deserves no such trust, in spite of proving himself an ally in 3&K.

If Knuckles can't tell good from bad after what he went through in 3&K, he's fucking stupid.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

Is there no point where a character is stupid for being tricked? Regardless of how obvious it is? It's hard enough to argue that ignoring the massive warning signs in 3&K was just being gullible, but being tricked again in SA is clearly over the line.

It's like I said, being tricked twice in an extremely small time frame by the first dude you ever met really does not signify stupidity. Rather it's more of a gullibility and generosity issue.

Again, think of Batman and Joker, that hero repeatedly gives chances to the villain way more than Knuckles ever did. So if chances mean stupidity then Batman is essentially the dumbest character to ever be created.

[Wraith]

2 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

It's like I said, being tricked twice in an extremely small time frame by the first dude you ever met really does not signify stupidity. Rather it's more of a gullibility and generosity issue.

Again, think of Batman and Joker, that hero repeatedly gives chances to the villain way more than Knuckles ever did. So if chances mean stupidity then Batman is essentially the dumbest character to ever be created.

If he's willing to give Eggman a second chance after he had already had Chaos attack him, but not Sonic, who had done nothing but help him up until that point, that borders on stupidity.

Batman never outright kills the joker, but he doesn't play with him with kid's gloves either. He neutralizes him in an instant.