Pontaff Retrospective: What's Up with all the Hate?

[Diogenes]

God, can you jump off of the "everything is terrible" schtick for five minutes and actually realize there's things to appreciate in this series that aren't just chucked up to some mindless nostalgia chugging? I mean, it's one thing to acknowledge the stupid things this series has spit out (because there has been a lot), but you've acted a lot lately like there's just about nothing salvageable about whatever has been crafted beforehand just to justify your arguments, and it's getting beyond tiring to have to argue against.

Talk about cynicism for cynicism's sake, lord. Why do we act like there's no sort of standard or general idea to look up to in this series? It's been terribly inconsistent, yes, but to act like that we can't tell what's good because we've been given mixed bags so much is just a ridiculous argument.

Have there been some good things in the series over the years? Sure. Has every good thing in the series been chewed up, spit out, chewed up again, then swallowed and later shat out? Pretty much. This is a series that has made itself one of the biggest laughingstocks in the medium, for its writing no less than any other aspect. The idea that there's some pedigree to the "lore" that needs to be protected...I don't think that's been true for a long time, if it's ever been. I don't think Sega believes it either, since even before they brought on P&G, considering some of the dumb shit they were up to. Change could do this series a lot of good, even if it came with losing a few things we liked, and I'm long past waiting for Sonic Team to suddenly wake up and fix everything just how I'd like it.

...acting like there's no standards, fuck me. I liked Lost World's story. I thought it was the most honest attempt to reinvigorate this series' rotting characters and storytelling in years. Finally a story that's not about some new mystic doohickey and some new giant monster, with Sonic and co just happening to fuck around nearby. Finally a story that is actually about these characters, and isn't just using them to prop up the flavor of the week. It wasn't perfect by any measure, but I felt more heart from it than I've felt from this series for a long time. I thought maybe they'd have something solid to build on now.

But nearabout everyone else seems to think the exact opposite. Every character's a shallow ooc one-note jerk now, it's terrible for not explaining all the background, everything feels fake, etc etc. So obviously we need to go back to the old way that didn't work, because somehow they'll be able to fix what's wrong with it this time.

And I'm just tired of fighting it. I can't change what Lost World made anyone else feel, any more than anyone can change what it made me feel. So if it's either me or everyone else who's crazy, then I'll be the crazy one.

But if I'm going to be the crazy one, you gotta let me laugh.

[azoo]

Well then if I have ridiculous expectations to want something that uses what was good and throw out what was bad and handle storytelling with a bit more tact than just throwing things at a wall, then I hope you enjoy the oncoming games' stories I guess because they're most likely going to cater to your interests more and not mine. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Also, focusing on characters and not on background plot points isn't going to fix a dang thing for this series if it still feels poorly put together, which Lost World was imo. You could argue the same for Adventure and etc and I wouldn't completely disagree with every notion of that either, but to act like Lost World is some pariah of that bunch that manages to do so much better than them? Haha, nah.

Besides, why are once again pitting it as if it's one thing or another, anyways? Why does backstory elaboration and plot progression render interesting character interactions out of existence, or vice versa? Why is this black-or-white mentality here whenever many other games, books, movies and other mediums do them simultaneously all the time? Are we that desperate to just take what we can get, or are we just expecting no sort of good ever from Sonic Team and consider ourselves lucky for the minimum, or what? 

I'm tired of thinking of it like this. I'm not expecting it to ever get better than how it is now, but I'll always be hopeful and know we can do better. Why do we settle so easy, as if nothing we once cared about matters because some kind of mopey "everything sucks, lets just take what good we get" mindset?

Edited October 5, 2015 by Azoo

[Fake Hedgehog]

Have there been some good things in the series over the years? Sure. Has every good thing in the series been chewed up, spit out, chewed up again, then swallowed and later shat out? Pretty much. This is a series that has made itself one of the biggest laughingstocks in the medium, for its writing no less than any other aspect. 

Basics don't care about Sonic's lore and characters at all. Most people's knowledge of Sonic goes as far as "oh ya I know Sonic he's blue go goes around loopty-loops" They're the same ones who complain about Sonic's large character cast and "loved the Wisps". B-A-S-I-C.  fuggin G4Tech. IGN 

I've rarely heard or seen the writing of the Adventure or Griffith-eras cited a point of critisism by anyone outside or inside the fanbase, other than people with a feral obsession over tearing into Sonic 06 getting worked up over the time-travel technicalities.

People have hated and critisized Sonic because the gameplay isn't good and most of these people couldnt care less about the lore and continuity. Anybody who even bothers to go as far as to negatively critisize the writing of the games (regardless of whether the writing was good or bad) is very likely only extrapolating the sour taste the gameplay left in their mouths.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

 

Besides, why are once again pitting it as if it's one thing or another, anyways? Why does backstory elaboration and plot progression render interesting character interactions out of existence, or vice versa? Why is this black-or-white mentality here whenever many other games, books, movies and other mediums do them simultaneously all the time? Are we that desperate to just take what we can get, or are we just expecting no sort of good ever from Sonic Team and consider ourselves lucky for the minimum, or what? 

I'm tired of thinking of it like this. I'm not expecting it to ever get better than how it is now, but I'll always be hopeful and know we can do better. Why do we settle so easy, as if nothing we once cared about matters because some kind of mopey "everything sucks, lets just take what good we get" mindset?

Oh, silly Azoo. It's because this is Sonic - he just doesn't work with stories that do that.

Being serious, that's been the same thing I've been asking everyone every time we reach this point, and hardly anyone seems to answer. Or if they do, it's the usual "because it's shit" in paragraph form with nothing constructive to learn from. If I were to make an observation, I'd say it's because of double standards that have been rife among fans between this franchise and every other franchise ever since storytelling went down the shitter starting with ShTH and arguably Heroes. This is of course Sonic Team's fault for botching this up in the first place, but ain't it just ironic that when you suggest looking toward something decent or suggest ideas to make things better with good intentions that people immediately shoot it down as if it's a hopeless nightmare that's not worth the effort to be hopeful about? It's like they're more addicted to the negative than the positive.

Edited October 5, 2015 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Komodin]

So, at the end of the day, the general subject of Ken Pontac and Warren Graff's work in the Sonic series is like pretty much everything in regards to a series with a fan base as "split" as that of Sonic's. Specifically, it is the sort that you either love or hate, to varying degrees, with notably expressed neutral opinions few and far between.

 

At this point, I just wish that this sort of thing didn't cause so much in-fighting between fans--you can have a preference for a specific take on a thing while acknowledging and appreciating that others have their specific preferences on a thing.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

And what's funny is that is really easy to do depending on the take.

Unfortunately, even for the less intrusive takes, people are egotistical and insular about it and take anything not of their preference as a slight against them. Certain takes are perceived as coming at the cost of another by some, or worst, percieved as "wrong" for it's differences.

Edited October 5, 2015 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

I honest to god wanna know why people are so quick to say Lost World is such an improvement and achievement for the series. And are so quick to call it better attempts at writing than almost everything from the past decade and a half. This isn't me saying its bad or being a "blind nostalgiafag", but I truly wanna know. 

Its like, we've had serious, no-nonsense villains in the past, Sonic & Eggman have teamed up in the past, and the contrary to popular belief, the series does focus on its original cast for the most part. So what did Lost World apparently do to elevate it to such heights that everyone is calling it among the best modern stories to date, because I don't see it. 

[blade57331]

I find it kind of funny how Sonic didn't care for Amy's and Knuckles' deaths in Lost Word.

Also, I don't get why they put Knuckles in Lost Word. I mean him being close friend with Sonic(or being in his team) never maked sense.

Edited October 5, 2015 by blade57331

[Clewis]

I don't get why they put Knuckles in Lost Word. I mean him being friend with Sonic(or being in his team) never maked sense.

Just for fan service, really. I've always found it funny how Sonic doesn't even acknowledge his presence, even when Knuckles speaks to him directly.

Also, I find it kind of funny how Sonic didn't care for Amy's and Knuckles' deaths in Lost Word.

As short as this cutscene is, I'd say it does a decent job at showing how unhappy Sonic was with both Amy and Knuckles' apparent "death":

[blade57331]

As short as this cutscene is, I'd say it does a decent job at showing how unhappy Sonic was with Amy and Knuckles' apparent "death":

Yeah. And later on with Eggman, a big drop from the bridge is for him more interesting then deaths of his friends xD

Like he has ADHD, or something?

[Wraith]

 

I honest to god wanna know why people are so quick to say Lost World is such an improvement and achievement for the series. And are so quick to call it better attempts at writing than almost everything from the past decade and a half. This isn't me saying its bad or being a "blind nostalgiafag", but I truly wanna know. 

Its like, we've had serious, no-nonsense villains in the past, Sonic & Eggman have teamed up in the past, and the contrary to popular belief, the series does focus on its original cast for the most part. So what did Lost World apparently do to elevate it to such heights that everyone is calling it among the best modern stories to date, because I don't see it. 

You're saying "People" like there are a bunch of people who feel that way. Almost nobody in here has flat out insisted the story is some huge improvement or anything. Most of the flaws are things most people acknowledge. Some people just like a lot of the things they did do right or the ideas they tried to tackle. Just like what everyone says about pretty much everything from Adventure 1 - Sonic 06, It had potential.   

And honestly, even with all the flaws, I could see why some people would call it the best story in the modern series just by the fact that it has a beginning, middle, and ending unlike any of the boost games, all of which just start going somewhere then drop off in the middle and make it as simple as  "Sonic runs to all the temples/generators/eras and stops the big purple thing." 

 

 

[Komodin]

Yeah. And later on with Eggman, a big drop from the bridge is for him more interesting then deaths of his friends xD

Like he has ADHD, or something?

The cutscene Clewis linked to happened after the "Eggman falls to his death" event.

[blade57331]

The cutscene Clewis linked to happened after the "Eggman falls to his death" event.

Oh right. Still...

 

This didn't.

Edited October 5, 2015 by blade57331

[Komodin]

Oh right. Still...

Hidden Content

This doesn't.

That cutscene also showcased a clear threat who interrupted Sonic while he was wondering just what happened to his friends. A threat that had to be stopped at that very moment.

[blade57331]

That cutscene also showcased a clear threat who interrupted Sonic while he was wondering just what happened to his friends. A threat that had to be stopped at that very moment.

The threat that apperantly can wait so Sonic could take some nice views.

"Ehm, Sonic? priorities?"

[Bowbowis]

And honestly, even with all the flaws, I could see why some people would call it the best story in the modern series just by the fact that it has a beginning, middle, and ending unlike any of the boost games, all of which just start going somewhere then drop off in the middle and make it as simple as  "Sonic runs to all the temples/generators/eras and stops the big purple thing." 

I wouldn't exactly call Lost World's middle part an improvement over those of the boost games, it did pretty much the same thing, just in reverse. If the boost games were structured like a checklist simply dumping all of the story's conflicts on you at the start and then having you go resolve them throughout the game then Lost World is structured like a snow ball. The plot just keeps picking up more and more conflicts as it rolls on, never resolving any of them until the game is forced to hastily wrap things up in the last couple cutscenes. Sure the build up is more interesting but the conclusion is deeply unsatisfying. Compared to the constant development and resolution of conflict in the Adventure and Storybook games the change from the boost games to Lost World comes off as more of a trade-off than a net-gain.

[Kuzu]

 

 

You're saying "People" like there are a bunch of people who feel that way. Almost nobody in here has flat out insisted the story is some huge improvement or anything. Most of the flaws are things most people acknowledge. Some people just like a lot of the things they did do right or the ideas they tried to tackle. Just like what everyone says about pretty much everything from Adventure 1 - Sonic 06, It had potential.   

And honestly, even with all the flaws, I could see why some people would call it the best story in the modern series just by the fact that it has a beginning, middle, and ending unlike any of the boost games, all of which just start going somewhere then drop off in the middle and make it as simple as  "Sonic runs to all the temples/generators/eras and stops the big purple thing." 

 

 

Maybe I don't remember as well, but I remember all of the initial reactions to the game was pretty much summed up as "Best Story ever" and this is the game that "proved" Pontac and Graff are great. I'm not saying nobody acknowledged its flaws, but rather acting like what it did was such an amazing improvement to what we've gotten before. You yourself said it has flaws just like Sonic Adventure, yet that game is suddenly among the trash pile that people want to move on from?

It was pretty much the same deal as when Colors dropped, people bought so much into the hype that for a few months it was pretty much a sin to criticize any aspect of it, less you be talked down to for being a "hater" and "nitpicking" against the majority. 

[Wraith]

Maybe I don't remember as well, but I remember all of the initial reactions to the game was pretty much summed up as "Best Story ever" and this is the game that "proved" Pontac and Graff are great. I'm not saying nobody acknowledged its flaws, but rather acting like what it did was such an amazing improvement to what we've gotten before. You yourself said it has flaws just like Sonic Adventure, yet that game is suddenly among the trash pile that people want to move on from?

It was pretty much the same deal as when Colors dropped, people bought so much into the hype that for a few months it was pretty much a sin to criticize any aspect of it, less you be talked down to for being a "hater" and "nitpicking" against the majority. 

Well, yeah. People always overhype aspects of the games when they released. I remember people insisting Sonic 06 was fine when it came out, even. The game released almost 2 years ago and you definitely don't see people praising it's plot much anymore now that we've had more than enough time to break it down. Why dwell on what people thought way back then?

 

 

 

[KHCast]

 

 

You're saying "People" like there are a bunch of people who feel that way. Almost nobody in here has flat out insisted the story is some huge improvement or anything. Most of the flaws are things most people acknowledge. Some people just like a lot of the things they did do right or the ideas they tried to tackle. Just like what everyone says about pretty much everything from Adventure 1 - Sonic 06, It had potential.   

And honestly, even with all the flaws, I could see why some people would call it the best story in the modern series just by the fact that it has a beginning, middle, and ending unlike any of the boost games, all of which just start going somewhere then drop off in the middle and make it as simple as  "Sonic runs to all the temples/generators/eras and stops the big purple thing." 

 

 

except with Unleashed, stuff actually happens as Sonic goes to each temple.:/ it's not just "go to a temple, boss fight, done."every time. I'd say unleashed had a middle of sorts.

Edited October 5, 2015 by Michael Munroe

[Kuzu]

Well, yeah. People always overhype aspects of the games when they released. I remember people insisting Sonic 06 was fine when it came out, even. The game released almost 2 years ago and you definitely don't see people praising it's plot much anymore now that we've had more than enough time to break it down. Why dwell on what people thought way back then?

There are still plenty of people who insist the game is still near perfect and that everything before is utter shit; not here specifically, just other places I've been around on the Internet. People who keep saying things to the effect "Its just a dumb kid's story, don't think too much about it" or "well at least its not 06 levels of bad" or some other flimsy justification. Its like...can a game be judged on its own merits just as much as its predecessors for once lol. I'm so tired of hearing that from defenders of this game. But that's just a personal peeve of mine. 

[Nepenthe]

So, at the end of the day, the general subject of Ken Pontac and Warren Graff's work in the Sonic series is like pretty much everything in regards to a series with a fan base as "split" as that of Sonic's. Specifically, it is the sort that you either love or hate, to varying degrees, with notably expressed neutral opinions few and far between.

 

At this point, I just wish that this sort of thing didn't cause so much in-fighting between fans--you can have a preference for a specific take on a thing while acknowledging and appreciating that others have their specific preferences on a thing.

I don't think it's necessary to chalk the criticism up to such a strong word as "hate," or even the praise as "love," because I think it paints a picture of a dichotomy that has a lot more nuance than that. I think the majority can agree that the stories are flawed to some degree, an inherent recognition that there's things to like and dislike about the works as a whole. People are always going to forge preferences with literally everything, but this isn't inherently an act of planting your flag in one hill and being unmoved even if a few people will do so. It's a natural expression of individuality. Just because I like Mazdas doesn't mean I don't like other cars, or just because I'm really critical of Michael Bay films doesn't mean I hate blockbusters. Arguments need to be considered in the context they're being made versus being the full extent of what people actually believe, especially with all of the problems inherent in communicating in online text. You just reduce people to stereotypes that way, and in a way I think that's what this "broken fanbase" talk amounts to- people claiming truth in stereotypes versus real people. "You're a modern fan? You must hate x." "You're a classic fan. You must hate y." It's counterproductive to me.

That being said, one must also remember that- again- a great deal of this subject is not happening in a vacuum. The change in aesthetics and storytelling wasn't some usual quirky Sonic Team experimentation we had no real warning for and thus we were all wading into this with nothing but our preconceived notions to guide us. It was made at the express expense of getting rid of nearly all of the things people liked about the older games without bothering to address the criticisms even the fans had for the way those things were handled. Instead of saying "Hey, let's not write shit," it was "Let's write different shit." It was the flamethrower option for a situation that required a scalpel, which was then combined with echo chambers on here insisting and reinforcing that people arguing against these changes didn't know what they were talking about or were actually the ones being hostile and unbecoming. It was basically "Fuck you, I got mine." You better believe that kind of shit will breed resentment, and without the stories being perfect the eggs were counted before they hatched. So now burned people are taking advantage of that failure. It's excessively obvious in hindsight that this was going to happen had the games not been amazing.

This period, particularly Lost World's cycle and even Rise of Lyric's, should've taught people to- instead of being upset that there's criticism (especially if you are prone to not giving a shit about the feelings of those with different tastes when you criticize things you don't like)- to be more respectful and empathetic in the development and expressing of their tastes when something new comes along, to not force out criticism or dissent under the guise that people being critical are actively and maliciously trying to ruin everything, to not overhype everything to the fucking moon, because betting on Sonic Team of all people to prove you right is just asking for it.

[Fake Hedgehog]

I fail to see how SA2 is singled out when in the previous game he tried to nuke an entire population to nothing and with no remorse. If anything, games past SA2 are OOC for Eggman. 

 

Eggman has always been rather personal with his enemies though. In the classics he piloted the boss machines at the end of each level himself (instead of leaving it to AI's like he has since Unleashed), whenever Sonic got a Chaos Emerald in Adventure Eggman would show up and steal it personally. Even when he was simply siccing Metal Sonic, Chaos, Egg Golem, Egg Cerberus, etc. on you Eggman almost always put in an appearance, even if it wasn't necessary and/or exposed him to danger. I think it can all be traced back to the trait that, perhaps more than anything else, defines Eggman as a character: Pride. He wants his enemies to meet their end by his hand and, more than that, he wants to be there to see it. The faceless masses might be far enough beneath him to only merit hell-fire rained upon them from afar, but in Eggman's eyes "[his] most admirable adversary" deserves something a little more personal.

Eggman is a sort of character that you don't expect to ever actually kill somebody.  

Eggman as a character, I see, is a very blank slate. His own personality isn't important to the narrative as long as he's there to provide Sonic a villain to fight. In games like Black Knight or Secret Rings where Eggman doesn't even appear at all, the game still feels and reads like a Sonic game. He can be eccentric and deranged like in the classics, or over the top clownish like in AostH, or serious like in SatAm and 06 and people will still recognize him as the same Eggman as long as he's battling Sonic. Fundamentally his personality goes as far "I'LL HAVE YOU YET YOU HORRID RODENT!"

He's a trampoline used by the protagonists to display their heroism and success against evil, and effectively a blank slate that warps to foil the these protagonists aswell as absorb the atmosphere of Sonic as an E10+ platformer. So aswell as foil Sonic's cool laid-backness with frentic rage he never reaches the point of being murderous because the atmosphere of the series doesn't allow this. These are the characteristics he takes on. He sets up traps and sends Sonic in laborious adventures and puzzles but never kills him in even the moments when anybody with a brainstem knows he could have done so easily. Some even explain that it's because Eggman just likes to fight Sonic.

The few times that he appears to have  OOC gory intentions, it's for the purpose of providing a hero character, the narrative and the viewer with an additional surge of suspense, motivation and in the end, glory.

He's made to fire a missile at Station Square specifically so that Tails will save the day.

He's made to launch Sonic to death specifically so that Tails will save the day.

Eggman is only ever as OOC as the atmosphere of the game is. He changes as much as needed to provide the heroes with the appropriate missions, the narrative with the appropriate direction or the conflict with the proper intensity.

Only in the Modern games and Boom that, as I say, shifted Sonic the Hedgehog from action and fighting to standing around and talking, has Eggman required and been given a distinct and colourful personality as a vital element of the narrative.

 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

 

Eggman is a sort of character that you don't expect to ever actually kill somebody. 

Actually, no. Eggman is a sort of character I fully expect to actually kill somebody. The thing about it is that he would do so with in reason - as a means to an end - and not because he's evil.

Edited October 5, 2015 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Fake Hedgehog]

Actually, no. Eggman is a sort of character I fully expect to actually kill somebody. The thing about it is that he would do so with in reason - as a means to an end - and not because he's evil.

So you regard him as ready and willing to kill, 

but would you expect to actually see him killing people in a Sonic game?

Edited October 5, 2015 by Fake Hedgehog

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

So you regard him as ready and willing to kill, 

but would you expect to actually see him killing people in a Sonic game?

Yes, or at least implied considering there have been more than one attempts at him trying to do so. I wouldn't expect there to be any blood and gore in it if that's what you think I'd like to see.

Edited October 5, 2015 by ChaosSupremeSonic