Plot Inconsistencies?

[Semi-colon e]

Honestly, Shadow is a strong case of Never Say Die, despite the over-the-top grimdarkness of it all. You shoot G.U.N. soldiers, they're only hurt. You shoot down the president, he's just fine in the next level. You fire the Eclipse Cannon at a city, fucking obliterating it... and they claim everyone was evacuated.

 

+1 for 06 then, for actually kiling and showing the deaths of multiple characters, and having Mephiles use the word "die"!

 

And -10 for being somehow worse a game than Shadow!

Edited March 15, 2013 by Semi-colon e

[Dr. Crusher]

So Black Doom didn't die... he was merely sent into the next dimension.

[Tani Coyote]

So Black Doom didn't die... he was merely sent into the next dimension.

 

... win, dude, just win.

 

Yeah it is pretty obnoxious they try to make the game all dark and then cut the darkest theme of all - death - right from it. It just feels so cheap.

[Jolt_TH]

Tbh Shadow is the worst of them all, they could have said that Central City was destroyed...and leave it at that, doesn't assume anyone died or not. Heck SA and SA2 were worse!

I'm SA Chaos ruins station square, nowhere does it say that "everyone was evacuated" so you assume someone died, or AT LEAST got injured! SA2 has G.U.N Killing Maria, and that isn't even skirted around, they don't show it graphically but you know and are shown in story that she is dead, don't forget Gerald when you see him before the execution, you KNOW he is going to get executed and they even leave in the G.U.N soldier saying "Ready men? Fire!". Sure you don't hear the shots from the firing squad but you k kw the outcome.

Just seems stupid when they have done a lot worse in other games tbh! They could have left out the "totally evacuated" part and you could have seen the president at least limping away of something!

[Tani Coyote]

You hear the gunshot as well, and based on how she's clutching her chest while releasing Shadow it's pretty obvious she doesn't have much time to live.

 

But yes, it's really annoying when the series skirts around death, especially in a game that was darker than all the others and more mature in pretty much all aspects. You hear the word "kill" a few times but never have any implications of death, short of Doom's plan succeeding. It really is an obnoxious writing inconsistency, if not a plot inconsistency.

 

Then again, Shadow's game had the army calling an invading military "terrorists" so it says a lot about the intelligence of the folks who wrote it.

 

There were just loads of inconsistencies in that game since in many cases the same cutscenes would play no matter what route was taken... I mean, it's understandable since there were what was it, thousands of possible paths? But still...

[Turbo the Punk]

So it's apparent this is another rip on ShTH topic. I see.

 

In all seriousness the entire plot of ShTH was mismanaged in my opinion. You had the alternate endings which seemed to complicate the plot, there was the avoidance of actual death, and worst of all in the end it didn't seem to matter because you really just end up as how you started.

 

Now I've thought about it and at the surface it would seem the lack of death in the game results from the overall lack of direction. I'm sure back when the game was released there was plans to reuse characters (which for the most part were already disposable) and areas, but assmungly they never got around to it.

[Tani Coyote]

So it's apparent this is another rip on ShTH topic. I see.

 

Well, it's natural. This is the plot inconsistencies thread, and if several alternate (like say, 326) stories aren't interwoven well, it can get bad really quick.

 

In all seriousness the entire plot of ShTH was mismanaged in my opinion. You had the alternate endings which seemed to complicate the plot, there was the avoidance of actual death, and worst of all in the end it didn't seem to matter because you really just end up as how you started.

 

Really the only explicit deaths seem to be Eggman's and Maria's and they're not even on-screen.

 

The plot had a lot of potential but the alternate storylines mechanic seems very poorly thought out. You'll end up with lots of contradictions or just plain confusing events.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Okay, while I was doing my write-up for the SU vs SC Topic for story, I kinda realized something about Unleashed, particularly the point where we find out that Professor Pickle has been kidnapped. His assistant specifically says that "It was a little bit before the tremors [from the laser breaking the planet apart I presume]" that Pickle had been kidnapped. Now we can presume that he was likely kidnapped to translate the Gaia Manuscripts so Eggman could learn more about Dark Gaia's power.

 

The thing IS, if this is true, then you are telling me that Eggman SOMEHOW managed to kidnap Pickle, get the translation he needed, built an ENTIRE FUCKING SPACE FLEET, and rile up Sonic enough so he would bring the Chaos Emeralds with him, all within the course of this TINY SPACE OF TIME!?

 

I mean if they had made it so he was kidnapped AFTER the tremors hit, then we could reasonably guess that he was kidnapped to translate the manuscripts to figure out why Dark Gaia collapsed in on itself after being released, but doing it this way makes it seem like Eggman is the Flash or something.

[Spin Attaxx]

The thing IS, if this is true, then you are telling me that Eggman SOMEHOW managed to kidnap Pickle, get the translation he needed, built an ENTIRE FUCKING SPACE FLEET, and rile up Sonic enough so he would bring the Chaos Emeralds with him, all within the course of this TINY SPACE OF TIME!?

Why not? He'd be smart enough to. I mean he built a giant not-Death Star within the span of a month or something. In real life it'd take 200-something years to do that.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Spin Attaxx

[Vertekins]

Okay, while I was doing my write-up for the SU vs SC Topic for story, I kinda realized something about Unleashed, particularly the point where we find out that Professor Pickle has been kidnapped. His assistant specifically says that "It was a little bit before the tremors [from the laser breaking the planet apart I presume]" that Pickle had been kidnapped. Now we can presume that he was likely kidnapped to translate the Gaia Manuscripts so Eggman could learn more about Dark Gaia's power.

 

The thing IS, if this is true, then you are telling me that Eggman SOMEHOW managed to kidnap Pickle, get the translation he needed, built an ENTIRE FUCKING SPACE FLEET, and rile up Sonic enough so he would bring the Chaos Emeralds with him, all within the course of this TINY SPACE OF TIME!?

 

I mean if they had made it so he was kidnapped AFTER the tremors hit, then we could reasonably guess that he was kidnapped to translate the manuscripts to figure out why Dark Gaia collapsed in on itself after being released, but doing it this way makes it seem like Eggman is the Flash or something.

Eggman has the workforce to do this stuff. It's even stated in the game that he uses his robots for more than pitting against Sonic, specifically by the Egg Fighter in Eggmanland's hub. That robot attests to being worked so hard constructing Eggmanland that he "wanted to cry" when Eggmanland was completed. Eggman's robotic legion even have no right to say "no" to their master when it comes to carrying out his demands of them.

You could use the same logic to question how Eggman managed to construct his park and the space elevator in Colours in presumably a very short period of time.

Eggman does not find out from Pickle about why Dark Gaia broke apart upon release. The reasons behind it were told to him by Orbot, Eggman's reply to Orbot strongly implying that he did not forsee Dark Gaia breaking apart.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Vertekins

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Eggman has the workforce to do this stuff. It's even stated in the game that he uses his robots for more than pitting against Sonic, specifically by the Egg Fighter in Eggmanland's hub. That robot attests to being worked so hard constructing Eggmanland that he "wanted to cry" when Eggmanland was completed. Eggman's robotic legion even have no right to say "no" to their master when it comes to carrying out his demands of them.

You could use the same logic to question how Eggman managed to construct his park and the space elevator in Colours in presumably a very short period of time.

Eggman does not find out from Pickle about why Dark Gaia broke apart upon release. The reasons behind it were told to him by Orbot, Eggman's reply to Orbot strongly implying that he did not forsee Dark Gaia breaking apart.

 

Ah ok. That's what I get for trying to apply real world logic to Eggman .

[Tani Coyote]

The thing IS, if this is true, then you are telling me that Eggman SOMEHOW managed to kidnap Pickle, get the translation he needed, built an ENTIRE FUCKING SPACE FLEET, and rile up Sonic enough so he would bring the Chaos Emeralds with him, all within the course of this TINY SPACE OF TIME!?

 

Knowing Eggman I assume the space fleet was assembled before Prof. Pickle's kidnapping. He's never got a shortage of airships these days, and ever since Heroes he always has a fairly large navy on hand. That he hasn't put some parts of the world under occupation is a miracle in and of itself with a force like that; even Sonic can't be everywhere at once.

 

What I'd be more interested in is why Sonic brought the emeralds with him there, but I just presume there was some unseen adventure between 06's time and Unleashed.

[Mando-Whirl-Wind]

I believe there are some theoryies that it took place after sonic chronicles, it would explain the space fleet, and sonic having all the emeralds

[Kamakai]

I believe there are some theoryies that it took place after sonic chronicles, it would explain the space fleet, and sonic having all the emeralds

 

That is, if Chronicles is even canon.

[DarkLight]

I believe there are some theoryies that it took place after sonic chronicles, it would explain the space fleet, and sonic having all the emeralds

 

But it wouldn't explain where the fuck Shade went nor how nobody ever seems to mention Eggman taking over the world in Unleashed.

 

Also, need I mention Chronicles was going to have a sequel before EA bought Bioware so the probability of Unleashed being the sequel when it was released right after Chronicles is zippo.

[The Conductor]

The idea of Unleashed taking place right after Chronicles seems more like compensating for the fact that Chronicles will never get a sequel, than something that was intended all along. 

[Vertekins]

Chronicles is not canon. That's a fact. And as DarkLight said, there is absolutely zero credibility to marking Unleashed out to be it's sequel. The world isn't dominated by Eggman and the other Sonic characters are nowhere to be seen (especially Shade), they don't assist Sonic akin to how stupidly chummy they were in Chronicles.

 

Adventure's Rashomon-esque take on cutscenes from different characters POV was always weird. Is Sonic's views on them supposed to be the canonical ones? 

 

Also, isn't Sonic supposed to revert from Werehog form at the end of NOTW considering it's morning and light out?

 

And in ShTH, where was Maria fatally shot? In one of the corridors of the ARK or inside the capsule launching area?

 

And what the heck ever happened to Sonic's cold in SatSR's intro?

[Emmett L. Brown]

Chronicles had a clever idea: Make the story take place "2 years after the final battle with eggman" so it's basically a preset sequel. It's set after every possible future game. That way Bioware could do whatever the heck they wanted with the story and never have to worry about fitting the continuity of future main series titles.

[Spin Attaxx]

Adventure's Rashomon-esque take on cutscenes from different characters POV was always weird. Is Sonic's views on them supposed to be the canonical ones?

I like to think that the dialogue changes between stories in Adventure is how each character interprets it as. Like how Eggman sounds more menacing in Tails's story than in Sonic's; since Tails's arc is about becoming independent from Sonic, then I'd imagine he'd imagine Eggman as his own dangerous enemy.

Edited March 17, 2013 by Spin Attaxx

[Tani Coyote]

Chronicles is not canon. That's a fact. And as DarkLight said, there is absolutely zero credibility to marking Unleashed out to be it's sequel. The world isn't dominated by Eggman and the other Sonic characters are nowhere to be seen (especially Shade), they don't assist Sonic akin to how stupidly chummy they were in Chronicles.

 

Such a shame, actually. One of the cool parts of Unleashed for me was Eggman "winning" by managing to finally build his own country. Would have been neat to see a game where they actually have to overthrow the Eggman Empire... ah well. Lost potential.

 

Also, isn't Sonic supposed to revert from Werehog form at the end of NOTW considering it's morning and light out?

 

Delicious plot inconsistency if I ever saw one. The small design oversights always find a way to taint otherwise wonderful cartoons.

 

And in ShTH, where was Maria fatally shot? In one of the corridors of the ARK or inside the capsule launching area?

 

Corridor. The guard points a gun at her, she reaches out for Shadow's help, and a gunshot is heard. Presumably the bullet hit her in the chest; she was able to survive long enough to get to the escape pod and then launched Shadow out despite his protests. Having worked in a science facility (And being of the Robotnik line), she was obviously smart enough to know she was done for and knew Shadow wouldn't leave her willingly.

 

And what the heck ever happened to Sonic's cold in SatSR's intro?

 

Maybe the flame warmed him up?

 

...I mean. I've no idea. Must have gone away naturally or something...

 

Chronicles had a clever idea: Make the story take place "2 years after the final battle with eggman" so it's basically a preset sequel. It's set after every possible future game. That way Bioware could do whatever the heck they wanted with the story and never have to worry about fitting the continuity of future main series titles.

 

Say what one will about the execution, that really is a genius idea. With how snail's pace the actual continuity passes it'd be at least a century before Sega'd ever have to deal with it, and by then they'd have retconned it if not having rebooted the series entirely.

Edited March 19, 2013 by Ogilvie Maurice

[- Eternal Paradox -]

And in ShTH, where was Maria fatally shot? In one of the corridors of the ARK or inside the capsule launching area?

 

 

Corridor. The guard points a gun at her, she reaches out for Shadow's help, and a gunshot is heard. Presumably the bullet hit her in the chest; she was able to survive long enough to get to the escape pod and then launched Shadow out despite his protests. Having worked in a science facility (And being of the Robotnik line), she was obviously smart enough to know she was done for and knew Shadow wouldn't leave her willingly.

I don't think it's quite as simple as that. Shadow's mind is pretty fragmented in ShTh, and It's implyed in said game that Gerald altered his memories. In ShTH, there's a scene where Heavy Dog shoots at Maria. Was that the fatal blow? I sure as hell hope not, as that scene was just a vechile for another boss-fight (and a re-skin at that).

One thing that seems pretty consistant is Maria is the control room/room with the escape pad launcher. It's a pretty promient place aboard the Arc - It's where Shadow has his last memory of Maria, where Eggman tries to kill Sonic, where the group say their goodbyes to Shadow. Even STH, as inconsistant as that game was, has Maria falling and telling Shadow her last wish there.

 

Not that I'm saying Maria wasn't shot in the corridor. It's just the corridor is given absolutely no signifcance. The control room, however is.

[Tani Coyote]

One thing that seems pretty consistant is Maria is the control room/room with the escape pad launcher. It's a pretty promient place aboard the Arc - It's where Shadow has his last memory of Maria, where Eggman tries to kill Sonic, where the group say their goodbyes to Shadow. Even STH, as inconsistant as that game was, has Maria falling and telling Shadow her last wish there.

 

Not that I'm saying Maria wasn't shot in the corridor. It's just the corridor is given absolutely no signifcance. The control room, however is.

 

A part of me isn't sure exactly where the continuity lies in the two missions that take place in the past. Since it's within Shadow's head, it's kind of hard to tell what's real and what's fake. Though I suppose it can be presumed that Shadow destroying the Artificial Chaos and helping Maria escape are the canonical choices as to what happened back then; he was a kindhearted person in those days, and it is logical.

 

The battle with the mech I'm pretty sure is noncanon. I think the guards shot her in the corridor and they ran their way there, before the mortally wounded Maria shot him out of the colony before he could be captured.

 

Sad part is it was all for naught since he was captured by GUN anyway.

[Sparky]

I like to think that the dialogue changes between stories in Adventure is how each character interprets it as. Like how Eggman sounds more menacing in Tails's story than in Sonic's; since Tails's arc is about becoming independent from Sonic, then I'd imagine he'd imagine Eggman as his own dangerous enemy.

I think for the dialogue changes work like, the lines said by the character in their respective stories is the canonical one. Ex: Sonic and Tails conversation in one scene, Sonic's lines in his story and Tails lines in his story is the actual lines.

[-blank-]

I always considered the dialogue in Sonic's story to be the canon lines.

[Emmett L. Brown]

I think for the dialogue changes work like, the lines said by the character in their respective stories is the canonical one. Ex: Sonic and Tails conversation in one scene, Sonic's lines in his story and Tails lines in his story is the actual lines.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Laconic/RashomonStyle

 

None of them are canonical. They're just the way the characters prefer to remember it. Remember when Tails picks up Sonic with the Tornado 2? In Sonic's version his first line is that he's glad Tails is okay, because that's what he's most focused on. In Tails's version Sonic's instead complimenting the plane because that's what Tails is focused on.