[DELETED]

[Splash the Otter]

Like hell he wasn't. Are you forgetting the whole "faker" bit that drove like half the story?

They share the trait of competing with Sonic in speed. Hell the only ability Shadow has that isn't about that is Chaos Spear; gameplaywise Sonic and Shadow were identical (save for two upgrades), and in the scene where they first met Chaos Control was used specifically for Shadow to outspeed Sonic. Remember that SA2 was before Shadow went full Vegeta, and when Metal wasn't much more than "Sonic with sparks".

Yeah? What difference does it make? It's not like people haven't accused Shadow of replacing Metal and Knuckles as Sonic's rival, and it's not like that's done anything to stop him having hordes of fanboys. I doubt being a "replacement" simply because they have the same power would even trigger that kind of defensiveness anyway.

You're missing the point, Dio. Shadow was not meant to replace anyone, and only "supplanted" Knuckles and Metal because of how ridiculously popular he became. Furthermore, both of the characters he "replaced" are still part of the main cast. Why should Silver get scrapped when those two weren't?

[Kuzu]

Being a hedgehog really hurt Silver in the long run, but its nothing we can change so meh.

 

Its not that Silver isn't salvageable, its just that nobody finds him interesting enough to want to do so here.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It would be much easier, and a lot more satisfactory for everyone, if they just made Silver not suck. I'm sure CSS can back me up on this.

I'm not sure about it being easier, but I'd rather we try to fix what seems to be broken instead of throwing the broken thing away and not bother. Too many people opt for the easy path of getting rid of things, and I tend to translate that as not even bothering to try.

Edited June 24, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[Splash the Otter]

Being a hedgehog really hurt Silver in the long run, but its nothing we can change so meh.

 

Its not that Silver isn't salvageable, its just that nobody finds him interesting enough to want to do so here.

I'm not so sure we can't change his species. After all, is there anything that requires him to be a hedgehog? The only problem I can see is that some people might be averse to calling him "Silver the Mink" all of a sudden.

[Kuzu]

I'm not so sure we can't change his species. After all, is there anything that requires him to be a hedgehog? The only problem I can see is that some people might be averse to calling him "Silver the Mink" all of a sudden.

 

It'd be really weird if he just suddenly changed species out of nowhere, at least its very much established that he's a hedgehog so there's no reason to change it.

[Diogenes]

Why should Silver get scrapped when those two weren't?

Because he suuuuuuucks.

Also about the only way you're changing his species is by rebooting the series.

[Kuzu]

Look I don't particularly like Silver either, but I don't think he deserves to just be forgotten and cut loose.

[Splash the Otter]

Because he suuuuuuucks.

Also about the only way you're changing his species is by rebooting the series.

Dio, are you aware of how unreasonable you sound right now? Because you're essentially saying, "I don't like Silver, so I want him to disappear!" That is an incredibly close-minded (and dare I say it, selfish) thing to say. I don't really like Rouge or Vector, but you don't hear me demanding that they stop appearing in games, do you?

 

And there are ways to change his species while leaving the rest of the series untouched. Tenko suggested a slightly more extreme version of what happened to Team Chaotix. But regardless of whether he's a hedgehog or a mink, my point is that getting rid of a character should only be done as a last resort, if at all.

[Diogenes]

Dio, are you aware of how unreasonable you sound right now? Because you're essentially saying, "I don't like Silver, so I want him to disappear!" That is an incredibly close-minded (and dare I say it, selfish) thing to say. I don't really like Rouge or Vector, but you don't hear me demanding that they stop appearing in games, do you?

Damn near every argument can be boiled down to "I want this, therefore do it" if you ignore everything about it. And I don't simply "not like" Silver, I actively dislike him. I think he is ugly and boring, I think his gameplay is shit, he's annoying, he's uncreative, I can barely even fathom a single positive thing to say about him and I'm not sure that's true of any other character in the series. I honestly, truly, think the series would be better without him. 

And there are ways to change his species while leaving the rest of the series untouched. Tenko suggested a slightly more extreme version of what happened to Team Chaotix.

The only reason the Chaotix could be brought back like they were is because they had essentially ceased to be a part of the series. If Knuckles Chaotix had ever been canon, at some point it ceased to be, and eventually Team Chaotix was created as essentially new characters. And it worked because KC was a game almost no one played and had no relation to any game that mattered.

Now how exactly would you knock '06, Generations, and anything else Silver's had a significant appearance in out of the series canon, and to the outer edges of the fanbase's collective memory? If you retired him, completely, for like a decade, you might have a chance. But at that point why bother bringing him back.

But regardless of whether he's a hedgehog or a mink, my point is that getting rid of a character should only be done as a last resort, if at all.

I don't agree, I think there are perfectly valid reasons to get rid of a character, and trying to spin it as an absolute never is ridiculous.

[Splash the Otter]

Damn near every argument can be boiled down to "I want this, therefore do it" if you ignore everything about it. And I don't simply "not like" Silver, I actively dislike him. I think he is ugly and boring, I think his gameplay is shit, he's annoying, he's uncreative, I can barely even fathom a single positive thing to say about him and I'm not sure that's true of any other character in the series. I honestly, truly, think the series would be better without him. 

 

And I honestly, truly, think he should stay. Is this going to become a contest of whose opinion is better? Because I can assure you that no good will ever come of that.

 

The only reason the Chaotix could be brought back like they were is because they had essentially ceased to be a part of the series. If Knuckles Chaotix had ever been canon, at some point it ceased to be, and eventually Team Chaotix was created as essentially new characters. And it worked because KC was a game almost no one played and had no relation to any game that mattered.

Now how exactly would you knock '06, Generations, and anything else Silver's had a significant appearance in out of the series canon, and to the outer edges of the fanbase's collective memory? If you retired him, completely, for like a decade, you might have a chance. But at that point why bother bringing him back.

 

Lets look at the games where Silver had a significant appearance. The only part of NextGen that didn't get reduced to a "what if" scenario in-game is the final cutscene. Both of the Rivals games are of dubious canon, and create a large number of plot holes. Generations relies entirely on being an anniversary title for the plot to make sense, and most likely won't be brought up at any point in the future. Furthermore, none of those games (with the possible exception of NextGen) require Silver to be a hedgehog. I fail to see how turning him into a mink would hurt anything.

 

I don't agree, I think there are perfectly valid reasons to get rid of a character, and trying to spin it as an absolute never is ridiculous.

 

I'm not "trying to spin it as an absolute never". I'm just saying that you should only try it if attempts to improve the character have failed. You aren't even willing to try making Silver a better character, instead wanting to take the lazy way out by removing him entirely.

My replies are in bold because I don't know how to dissect posts. Could someone tell me how to do that?

Edited June 24, 2013 by ElectroKyurem

[Jolt_TH]

Put (/quote) at the end with square brackets [] and (quote) with square brackets at the start, or copy and paste the first quote bracket

[Diogenes]

And I honestly, truly, think he should stay. Is this going to become a contest of whose opinion is better?

If you can't actually explain why he should be kept around, what potential he supposedly has, then probably.

Lets look at the games where Silver had a significant appearance. The only part of NextGen that didn't get reduced to a "what if" scenario in-game is the final cutscene. Both of the Rivals games are of dubious canon, and create a large number of plot holes. Generations relies entirely on being an anniversary title for the plot to make sense, and most likely won't be brought up at any point in the future.

It doesn't need to have any continued in-canon relevance. As long as his appearances are still part of the continuity, you have the problem of a character randomly changing species for no apparent reason.

Furthermore, none of those games (with the possible exception of NextGen) require Silver to be a hedgehog. I fail to see how turning him into a mink would hurt anything.

Doesn't matter, you can't have a character just switch species between games for no reason and not have people call you on that bullshit.

I'm not "trying to spin it as an absolute never".

What the hell else is "if ever" supposed to mean?

I'm just saying that you should only try it if attempts to improve the character have failed.

Silver has failed every time he's appeared, how much more effort should they waste on him.

You aren't even willing to try making Silver a better character, instead wanting to take the lazy way out by removing him entirely.

The only way to fix Silver is for him to not be Silver. He doesn't have any positive attributes to keep. He is a worthless character.

[Splash the Otter]

If you can't actually explain why he should be kept around, what potential he supposedly has, then probably.

Look at his psychic powers, or at his desire to be a hero! You can do a lot with that!

It doesn't need to have any continued in-canon relevance. As long as his appearances are still part of the continuity, you have the problem of a character randomly changing species for no apparent reason.

I'm pretty sure very few people would complain about Silver not being "yet another hedgehog".

Doesn't matter, you can't have a character just switch species between games for no reason and not have people call you on that bullshit.

If being a mink would improve the public's opinion of Silver, it's a necessary evil.

What the hell else is "if ever" supposed to mean?

It means that nine times out of ten, completely erasing a character from existence is a bad thing. If Silver can be made to fit better in the series (and trust me, he can), he should not be scrapped.

Silver has failed every time he's appeared, how much more effort should they waste on him.

He only "failed" because nobody put any effort into improving him in the first place. Actually trying to make him better would be a worthwhile investment of effort, not a waste!

The only way to fix Silver is for him to not be Silver. He doesn't have any positive attributes to keep. He is a worthless character.

Silver has plenty of positive attributes. You are just too narrow-minded to see them!

[Kuzu]

I don't understand why somebody isn't allowed to hate a concept or character and wish for them to never return without being "close-minded" I mean god people, are that intolerant of a person's opinion that we cannot understand that they simply do not like something and respect it?

 

 

Kyurem, Dio does not like Silver, at all. He believes he is a bad character with a terrible introduction and nothing of note, why is this a problem for you to understand or accept? And as he pointed out, you haven't given any reason on why you feel he's wrong and giving the vaguest of answers. "Oh well he's psychic powers, and he wants to be a hero"  are not convincing answers when you're trying to convince somebody of a character's merit.  If you want people to give Silver a chance then explain it instead of getting mad at other people not seeing things that you don't explain.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Azure Yakuzu

[Diogenes]

Look at his psychic powers, or at his desire to be a hero! You can do a lot with that!

His psychic powers, as presented, are incredibly boring. He floats a bit, he throws shit, he shoots lasers, that's all. Powers alone aren't enough to make a character good anyway. And a desire to be a hero? That's the most generic premise ever. It's practically zero.

I'm pretty sure very few people would complain about Silver not being "yet another hedgehog".

They'd complain about the massive inconsistency of a character changing species for no reason. 

If being a mink would improve the public's opinion of Silver, it's a necessary evil.

It wouldn't, not significantly, not more than such a blatant inconsistency would harm the series.

If Silver can be made to fit better in the series (and trust me, he can)

Give me any reason to trust you.

He only "failed" because nobody put any effort into improving him in the first place. Actually trying to make him better would be a worthwhile investment of effort, not a waste!

He's a shitty character that almost no one likes that's not relevant to anything. He could vanish right now and nothing would change. He ain't worth it. 

Silver has plenty of positive attributes. You are just too narrow-minded to see them!

Fucking list them, then.

[Jolt_TH]

I find silver an interesting character, but I can kinda see Dio's point. People may contain about Silver being "just another hedgehog" but they would probably complain more about a sudden species change, he has been appearing on side games and spin offs so he is still very much relevant as Silver the hedgehog. When the chaotix came back they were still the same species, but they hadnt been in the public eye since the 32X (and that was limited exposure)

I do find his phycokenisis an interesting and I think they would work a lot better if they worked like Force Unleashed Force powers (i.e. full control rather than just floating infront of him. IMO).

The main problem with Silver and his attributes is that he is from the future, so he isn't around, therefore they would need a plot in which time travel is relevant ( after 06? Yeah I don't think SEGA will try that in a hurry) or in which he needs a reason to com back, that is quite a big hurdle for him to appear. It's not like Knuckles and the ME as at least it's on the same time period as Sonic, Silver would need to time travel back in time to visit, which could have disastrous effects on his future (even if he didn't realise or mean to) not to mention time/space shenanigans and the continuum damage that could be caused.

[Splash the Otter]

I don't understand why somebody isn't allowed to hate a concept or character and wish for them to never return without being "close-minded" I mean god people, are that intolerant of a person's opinion that we cannot understand that they simply do not like something and respect it?

 

 

Kyurem, Dio does not like Silver, at all. He believes he is a bad character with a terrible introduction and nothing of note, why is this a problem for you to understand or accept? And as he pointed out, you haven't given any reason on why you feel he's wrong and giving the vaguest of answers. "Oh well he's psychic powers, and he wants to be a hero"  are not convincing answers when you're trying to convince somebody of a character's merit.  If you want people to give Silver a chance then explain it instead of getting mad at other people not seeing things that you don't explain.

He doesn't accept my opinion of Silver, so why should I accept his? I'm thinking of just giving up on trying to convince him of Silver's merit, because nothing I say will have any effect on him. In fact, I think he actually wants Silver to be a bad character purely so he can justify his hatred.

 

As for my wanting to keep Silver in the cast, I have a perfectly good reason for that. If you get rid of Silver, only the people who despise him will be happy. If you keep him, but use him sparingly, nobody will complain. Silver's fans have rights too, or has Dio forgotten that?

[Jolt_TH]

He doesn't accept my opinion of Silver, so why should I accept his? I'm thinking of just giving up on trying to convince him of Silver's merit, because nothing I say will have any effect on him. In fact, I think he actually wants Silver to be a bad character purely so he can justify his hatred.

Actually Dio is giving you point for point rebuttals as usual, he is giving his opinion to your points, that you aren't backing up. It's not about "convincing" it's about giving reasons why you have your opinion, you might make Dio see something he overlooked or did t think about, but not to force it down his throat.

As for my wanting to keep Silver in the cast, I have a perfectly good reason for that. If you get rid of Silver, only the people who despise him will be happy. If you keep him, but use him sparingly, nobody will complain. Silver's fans have rights too, or has Dio forgotten that?

People will complain no matter what you do with him so that's a moot point. EVERY character has fans, doesn't mean other people don't want them gone. Big had fans but SEGA scrapped him.

[Kuzu]

He doesn't accept my opinion of Silver, so why should I accept his? I'm thinking of just giving up on trying to convince him of Silver's merit, because nothing I say will have any effect on him. In fact, I think he actually wants Silver to be a bad character purely so he can justify his hatred.

Then why the fuck are you even arguing with him then? He's not refusing to accept your point, you haven't given him a reason on why he should see your point to begin with.

 

As for my wanting to keep Silver in the cast, I have a perfectly good reason for that. If you get rid of Silver, only the people who despise him will be happy. If you keep him, but use him sparingly, nobody will complain. Silver's fans have rights too, or has Dio forgotten that?

None of this makes Silver actually likable tho, you're just limiting his appearances and hope people will just start to like him out of the blue. If you want people to like Silver and want him around, then give reasons on why we should like him. Limiting his appearances doesn't change anyone's view on him, its just a quick fix.

 

Hell, they're doing exactly that with him right now in the games, and I sure as hell don't like him anymore than I did back when 06 dropped.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Azure Yakuzu

[Splash the Otter]

Then why the fuck are you even arguing with him then? He's not refusing to accept your point, you haven't given him a reason on why he should see your point to begin with.

 

None of this makes Silver actually likable tho, you're just limiting his appearances and hope people will just start to like him out of the blue. If you want people to like Silver and want him around, then give reasons on why we should like him. Limiting his appearances doesn't change anyone's view on him, its just a quick fix.

 

Hell, they're doing exactly that with him right now in the games, and I sure as hell don't like him anymore than I did back when 06 dropped.

But I feel like he's telling me it's wrong to like Silver! And I'm not saying we should just limit his appearances, I'm saying that SEGA needs to put some actual effort into making him better. Getting rid of him seems like such a waste...

Edited June 24, 2013 by ElectroKyurem

[Tornado]

Okay. I've tried to be nice about this before, but this is the last straw. If you two cannot find a way to coexist with each other on this forum, than neither of you will continue to exist on this forum. This petty back and forth dismissal of each other's opinions between the two of you over the most fleeting of topics is absolutely ridiculous at this point.
 
 
 
 
 
And another thing at Dio specifically:
 

Big was cool tho'.

By ditching Silver we're just freeing up a cool power for someone who doesn't suck.

Because he suuuuuuucks.

Also about the only way you're changing his species is by rebooting the series.

 
We have about had it with you escalating arguments into personal fistfights because you can't be bothered to express yourself in terms other than "this is how wrong you are for liking something that I don't like."

[Kuzu]

But I feel like he's telling me it's wrong to like Silver! And I'm not saying we should just limit his appearances, I'm saying that SEGA needs to put some actual effort into making him better. Getting rid of him seems like such a waste...

That goes without saying, but what efforts are you referring to? And how do you feel they should be going about it? I can't like a character if I'm given a reason on why.

[Splash the Otter]

That goes without saying, but what efforts are you referring to? And how do you feel they should be going about it? I can't like a character if I'm given a reason on why.

I'll try to explain everything at some point, but at the moment I really don't feel like talking about Silver.

Edited June 24, 2013 by ElectroKyurem

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I don't know what help I'm bring to this discussion, but it's not like you can't create new material to make a character worth keeping. Yes, you could very well make a new character but that doesn't prevent giving other character new things to work with nor should that mean you have to replace them.

I mean, we're dealing with fiction. Yes it has principles and within a works boundaries, rules. Many of you are brilliant minded folks, are you not? I'm sure you could work around some of these so called claims of "uselessness."

Here, let me try. Silver is from the future. All we know about it is that it is apparently in ruins, although whether or not that continues to be the case remains to be seen. Rather than bring Silver to the present to stop a threat in his time period, why not send characters from the present and into the future to explore what things will be like 200 from now? What will still be around, what will fall apart, what will change, what will remain the same, and the heroes themselves become wildcards in it all. We don't have to deal with it as Sonic 06 did, instead the only element of time travel would be going from the present to the future; or instead we could be more considerate about it the way Sonic CD did. There, I just gave something we could make use of.

I'm just throwing out ideas here, but I say if something seems useless then retool it so it's useful in some way. If you want to go to extremes, practically every character not named Sonic or Eggman is useless, and the franchise can survive with just two of them. But nothing is really that black and white extreme; you see something worth value to use, then let it test the fire for others to see how useful it is.

Edited June 24, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonîc

[NocturnalTwilight]

For right now, I can king of see what SEGA is doing by keeping the down-low with just Sonic and Tails being the main characters, but I'd really like to see Knuckles be a bigger part in the series, as much as Tails is right now. If they want to keep the story with limited characters being revolved around, I think it'd be a cool idea to have it as Team Sonic.