Dragon Ball (Warning: Untagged Spoilers)

[Zaysho]

1 hour ago, Lord Liquiir (Ogilvie) said:

I'm drawing it less from the dub's choice of word and more from the nature of things. Had Vegeta tried to be heroic, he would have been snuffed out very quickly. He only got out of the Namek fiasco because of the main cast's involvement, or else he'd still be dead.

He could either be a devil and live, or be a saint and die. In fact, take away the Dragon Ball element, and the message we get from anywhere in the series is most good people don't get to live long.

I meant to say your quote reminded me of the dub rather than thinking you were sourcing the dub, my bad.

I do mostly agree with this, my point was that I didn't feel like it was due to any kind of conditioning by Freeza, which is why I related what you said to the dub specifically

Quote

While Vegeta was evil at his peak, a lot of it's because he was never given a chance to be anything else (I think the Trio de Dangers are similar in this way). His father was killed early and he was molded into a soldier by Frieza.

--the bolded is almost exactly what was said before Vegeta died (edit: I'm actually blanking right now on if it was something Goku inferred or Vegeta said now, but I know that was in the old dub...). Otherwise, I agree the circumstances left him with few options, especially since Freeza and his generals towered over the Saiyans at the time, and it wasn't until he saw a way out, either through hunting for the Dragon Balls or seeing a "low-class" Saiyan like Goku surpass an "elite" with some training that he changed his tune. But even under Freeza's heel, I think he was just doing what Saiyans are expected to do(I imagine seeing his little brother shipped off for being too gentle didn't help ).

The second part's a good point, actually. I never thought about that, ha.

1 hour ago, Lord Liquiir (Ogilvie) said:

Given King Piccolo was able to have Piccolo have preset instructions on what to do, I'd imagine the Saiyans somehow embedded the baby with instructions during their time in space. Subliminal messaging, possible alterations to the brain matter, etc. Such instructions mean little if one knocks one's head and forgets them all.

That reminds me of that filler episode where Gohan stumbles across Goku's space pod and goes crazy because it is actually giving orders... we'll ignore this isn't anywhere near Mt. Paozu or that a projection of the moon somehow emits enough zeno/bruits waves to trigger a transformation. Those aside, that would probably follow if they're going to send toddlers into space to conquer worlds. It does raise the question of how long they're expected to stay there but I suppose I don't need to overturn those rocks (and I kind of dislike it lends credence to Toriyama's "Dragon Ball Minus" interpretation as Goku wasn't officially sent out and therefore was never going to be tracked down by Freeza's army--Bardock and Gine sent him off to protect him with the intent of bringing him back later). Though when I think about it, isn't Piccolo a reincarnation of King's evil rather than someone who was programmed with specific orders?

[Ryannumber1gamer]

3 hours ago, Zaysho said:

When I read this I mostly think of the early part of FUNi's in-house dub where Vegeta says... exactly this when I don't think either the Japanese version or the manga indicates that Vegeta ever had a problem with being a warrior or killer (hell, the dub contradicts itself later when he gives his "You are number one!" speech). What he hated was being under Freeza's heel, and once Dodoria spilled the beans about Freeza exterminating the Saiyans (the anime has some contradictory material, but Vegeta was in the dark about this) it cemented his desire for revenge and wanting Freeza to be dead at the hands of a Saiyan (go figure his son eventually fulfills this, ha). He would eventually come around simply because he realized he just wants to be stronger than Goku and prove why he's better. Finding people to fight for besides himself probably helped, too.

Goku--I don't know if there was any real programming per se. He was just a baby with a violent streak, but he was molded due to being raised as an Earthling. You can also argue that aspects of his nature are because of his mother, though I don't really like this explanation because it undermines the "nurture over nature" idea that Kamese'nin preached when Raditz came trying to recruit Goku (much as I love Gine as a character and concept, I don't see her as a factor at all because she never had a direct hand in raising Goku anyway--he was in incubation for three years without her intervention if you accept "Dragon Ball Minus" as Goku's origin). But I don't really know how this "infiltrator baby" business works. Are they given orders? Or are they just expected to make everything go boom on the first full moon they see and somebody comes to pick them up later and formally add them to the army?

That said, I don't see Freeza turning over a new leaf. Even when he's given a chance or shown a shred of mercy, he always responds with cruelty and spite. And, honestly, I like that about him. I have no problem with Goku making friends of his former enemies, it's one of the great things about Dragon Ball, but I'm fine with a few lost causes here and there.

When it comes to Vegeta though, there is some debate about how you interpret his change. In the years between the Cell saga and the Buu saga, Vegeta admittedly softened up. He came to care for a family. He had more of a purpose in life than simply being "the best". That's why he ended up using Babidi's mind control to revert to his evil ways. He kept feeling like he had a calling to return to his evil ways. For me personally, I saw this in two ways. 1. Vegeta's saiyan nature began getting the better of him, as the saiyans were nothing more than barbaric animals who wanted to fight, kill and laugh while doing so, and only was interested in showing dominance over everyone else, or 2. Frieza's moulding of the saiyans into his warriors/slaves, especially with Vegeta at such a young age, and only with Nappa and Frieza as the closest things to "mentors" when both were simply insane, murderous assholes, so it could go either way I suppose. 

It is because of that why I do enjoy the Maijn Vegeta storyline more, either way you look at it, it's taking a character who was always a cunt because of his nature, and forcing him to try either get over it entirely, or give in and become totally evil again. I like that it had a compromise in the end where Vegeta finally moved on and got over the part of his nature that makes him straight up an evil and selfish asshole, while retaining the pride and memories that kept him always pushing for so long.

Goku -- i mean recently he's reverting to his saiyan nature (joking joking) Is a harder case. For me personally, I prefer the idea that Gine had an influence in Goku because it sets up that not all saiyans were insane and fight-hungry. As much as they really try to push for Bardock and co to be heroic characters, at the end of the day, they were always still villainous and selfish, and as a whole, that makes it utterly silly to try take things seriously when Vegeta, or Goku or whatever acts like the saiyans were a race that should definitely be avenged and truly applauded. Vegeta always makes a big deal out of saiyans being prideful and yet the only one we ever see properly act with a brain and such and even give two shits about pride is Vegeta. In the end, it contrasts and makes this race extremely hard to care about, especially in Frieza's saga when we're meant to care about what he did.

Frieza - 

If they gave Frieza - Fucking Frieza an actual redemption scene, I would be half-expecting Goku Black and Zamasu appear in the next saga with a gift basket and a "we're sorry" card attached. 

[Ratcicle King]

Considering in his comeback the first thing Freeza did was punching Goku, then spending an entire episode torturing a bunch of guys while Goku slowly dies, THEN trying to ditch U7 altogether, THEN making clear he basically just wants to fan the flames in the chaos that already is the entire God Hierarchy. And FINALLY basically teaming up with his own alternate self and going ''Fuck all of existance''.

Yeah, Toei's making pretty darn clear Freeza won't change and Goku's gonna pay for his mistake.

[DiamondX]

I guess it was a bad idea to start the "Freeza becoming good" subject. I can still see it happening.

50 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

 

If they gave Frieza - Fucking Frieza an actual redemption scene, I would be half-expecting Goku Black and Zamasu appear in the next saga with a gift basket and a "we're sorry" card attached. 

Isn't that a little too much?

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Just now, DiamondX said:

I guess it was a bad idea to start the "Freeza becoming good" subject. I can still see it happening.

Isn't that a little too much?

No? There's no fucking difference? Both are murderous psychopathic bastards who only care about themselves. Literally the only difference is the scale and their viewpoints. Other than that, they're the same evil, psychopathic characters who care about absolutely nothing about themselves, kill and destroy for the thrill of it, and nothing else. Expecting Frieza to suddenly change and become a good guy is not only just destroying what the character was in the first place, but makes as much sense as doing it for Cell, or Kid Buu, or fucking Black/Zamasu.

[Ratcicle King]

54 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

If they gave Frieza - Fucking Frieza an actual redemption scene, I would be half-expecting Goku Black and Zamasu appear in the next saga with a gift basket and a "we're sorry" card attached. 

 

1 minute ago, DiamondX said:

Isn't that a little too much?

Yeah, pretty sure just the ''we're sorry'' card is enough.

[DiamondX]

I mean, Piccolo became a good guy.

[Ratcicle King]

Even dating back to the original Dragon Ball, we saw Piccolo having some more humanizing moments, IIRC the worst he's ever done was threatening to kill people, never following through. :U

[DiamondX]

I guess.

Guys, I don't want Freeza to become a good guy. I just want to say that it can happen. (Around a 20% chance)

 

Also, Freeza doesn't reach Zamasu levels of evil.

One wanted to rule the universe, the other wanted to be the only guy left in all 12 universes.

[Ratcicle King]

I'm not suggesting you want that, sorry if that's what it looked like, I'm just argumenting against the theory :U

[DiamondX]

6 minutes ago, Ratcicle King said:

I'm not suggesting you want that, sorry if that's what it looked like, I'm just argumenting against the theory :U

No, I just wanted to point that out.

I would not like it, but there is some evidence to it happening.

[-Robin-]

All Freeza is concerned about at the moment beyond getting one over Goku is trying to dismantle the godly structure. He's noticed that the gods are incompetent, and is taking the Tournament of Power as a means to figure out how to usurp them and revive himself along the way. 

 

Surviving the Tournament, being the last man standing, and wishing to the Super Dragon Balls - a Dragonball set that can grant any wish - to become the new King of Everything over Zen'O, sounds like something he'd try.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

3 hours ago, DiamondX said:

I mean, Piccolo became a good guy.

 

3 hours ago, Ratcicle King said:

Even dating back to the original Dragon Ball, we saw Piccolo having some more humanizing moments, IIRC the worst he's ever done was threatening to kill people, never following through. :U

You need to separate Piccolo from King Piccolo. King Piccolo is the one who could be considering on par with Frieza/Black/Zamasu in terms of being a sadistic bastard who only wants power. Piccolo Jr/Piccolo are the ones who had the humanising moments and isn't really King Piccolo.

[-Robin-]

Eh, that's arguable. Kami cannot survive if Piccolo dies, so Piccolo Jr., son or not, has to carry the same essence and spirit of King Piccolo since Kami was still around after the King got his torso blown open and exploded. 

 

Piccolo Jr. is more of a reincarnation of the elder Piccolo than anything else. 

[FReaK]

frieza a good guy? nah, cant see that happen. what I CAN see happen is that he teams up with goku in the tournament tho. at least for a short period of time, maybe when frost is kicked out or something.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

19 minutes ago, -Robin- said:

Eh, that's arguable. Kami cannot survive if Piccolo dies, so Piccolo Jr., son or not, has to carry the same essence and spirit of King Piccolo since Kami was still around after the King got his torso blown open and exploded. 

 

Piccolo Jr. is more of a reincarnation of the elder Piccolo than anything else. 

I'd argue that Piccolo Jr retained the essence and memory of King Piccolo but other than that, is a proper person on his own. Like I don't think I could see the same person who just murdered people the second they interfered with his plans as the same person who would call Goku his friend.

[-Robin-]

On 7/1/2017 at 8:53 PM, Lord Liquiir (Ogilvie) said:

-It turns out the leak that fallen fighters get erased is false. You just appear next to your Gods in the bleachers. The odds of this whole thing being a massive Punk'd have just increased, at least until we see what happens when a whole universe is knocked out. Is there a grace period, or is erasure instant?

Welp. 

No punking here anymore. It's probably U9 that got annihilated.

 

[Marcello]

I like how Krillin is the titular character and he doesn't even get a mention in te summary.

I don't like how Gohan is still grouped with the scrubs :-(

[Tani Coyote]

I'd like to jump in on the Zamasu/Frieza comparison and say...

I'd say Frieza's more evil.

To the end, Zamasu was convinced he was doing some divine justice. Despite some malicious behavior, like taking joy in inflicting pain, he had some extreme noble goal behind it all. He thought mortals were beyond saving and should be destroyed, taking the God of Destruction ideal to an extreme.

Frieza is just Frieza. He cares for nothing but himself and the whole multiverse exists for his own amusement. He's probably already thinking about a way of somehow eliminating Zen-Oh so there truly is no limit to his capabilities.

[Pawn]

So it sounds like Vegeta's responsible for Kale's transformation in a few episodes. He probably wipes the floor with Caulifla, sadly.

[Tani Coyote]

1 hour ago, Pawn said:

So it sounds like Vegeta's responsible for Kale's transformation in a few episodes. He probably wipes the floor with Caulifla, sadly.

I presume you mean because of Caulifla's status as the first female Super Saiyan, only for her to be swiftly knocked out. I'd have to say, in a franchise that has the sole female God of Destruction be a stereotype who only cares about beauty, it feels like an accomplishment we got a female Super Saiyan at all.

If nothing else I presume Vegeta will be overwhelmed by Kale, though I've no idea who will beat her.

[Pawn]

40 minutes ago, Lord Liquiir (Ogilvie) said:

I presume you mean because of Caulifla's status as the first female Super Saiyan, only for her to be swiftly knocked out. I'd have to say, in a franchise that has the sole female God of Destruction be a stereotype who only cares about beauty, it feels like an accomplishment we got a female Super Saiyan at all.

If nothing else I presume Vegeta will be overwhelmed by Kale, though I've no idea who will beat her.

The other option is that he goes straight for a rematch with Hit or a stronger Frost, I suppose. Although the preview says "Universe 6" which implies many opponents and I don't see him taking on either of them alongside others (assuming that Frost has improved all that much, of course).

[Ratcicle King]

>New leaks confirm a Universe is going to be destroyed by the end of the next episode
>Goku will fight half of the U9 team including the main threats, the Trio de Dangers
>U9 is not on the new ending
>Last episode had Basil showing off a lot, just like they did with Buu before removing him from the spotlight

Yep, goodbye U9.

Ogilvie's probably going to lose it next week.

 

At least we'll see Roh fucking dying

[Pawn]

Most universes have some kind of interesting detail(s) about them:

U2: Transforming characters, the Yardrat and giants

U3: Augmentation, but that's not served them well so far...

U4: Hidden members, several characters in the intro

U6: See U4

U7: Our boys and girl

U11: The big bad good

U9 has little mystery to them and we've already seen their big players fight. U10's the other that, while likely to provide some quality yucks, don't stand out a great deal among the crowd. I could see them or U3 go out next.

[Tani Coyote]

6 hours ago, Ratcicle King said:

Yep, goodbye U9.

Ogilvie's probably going to lose it next week.

Future Ogilvie paid me a visit in his Capsule Corp Time Machine and relayed my reaction:

 

6 hours ago, Pawn said:

Most universes have some kind of interesting detail(s) about them:

U2: Transforming characters, the Yardrat and giants

U3: Augmentation, but that's not served them well so far...

U4: Hidden members, several characters in the intro

U6: See U4

U7: Our boys and girl

U11: The big bad good

U9 has little mystery to them and we've already seen their big players fight. U10's the other that, while likely to provide some quality yucks, don't stand out a great deal among the crowd. I could see them or U3 go out next.

My bets in order of elimination:

U9

U3

U10 (their whole premise is being dumb muscleheads and I presume that won't carry them far; the ability of that one guy to avoid a swift elimination leaves me to think they'll last a bit longer)

U2

U11 (narrowly)

U6 (somehow holds on by a thread, probably by Frieza opting to help Frost against U11)

U4 (they're building Quitela up as Beerus' archnemesis, and seeing Quitela's guys kill Champa might just be what sends Beerus over the edge)

I'm foreseeing a scenario where Universe 6 outlives Universe 11 very briefly due to Frieza's intervention, only for Frost to be eliminated by one of Quitela's guys. Quitela is the supporting antagonist of this arc, so despite all the buildup towards Jiren, I think it will be Universe 4 who poses the final threat to Goku and co.