Dragon Ball (Warning: Untagged Spoilers)

[Nix]

Actually, if we look in the canon, Goku only defeated Buu in Z: Vegeta survived thanks to Goku's plea to Krillin (Preventing him from managing to defeat someone!) Freeza survived only to be killed with ease by Trunks.

 

Then in GT he gets to defeat the main villians himself, and in Dragon Ball I think he did too

 

I think we're getting "defeat" and "kill" mixed up here, because Goku did defeat Vegeta in the end (albeit he needed some help after Oozaru hax) and he wasn't even trying and still wiped the floor with Freeza.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Nix

[-Mark-]

Which is why the original draft Akira was going for is comparatively exciting.

Just imagine how the manga would have played out if Toriyama had absolute control of his story direction. 19 and 20 would be serious big bads, Cell would be around a lot longer, Goten would have an enormous part, Vegeta would be shafted due to being Toriyama's least favorite character he made, and Piccolo, Toriyama's favorite, would be right up there with the Saiyans in terms of worth and strength through all of DBZ.

 

Interesting. That's the first time I've heard any of this.

 

Where was all this mentioned, anyway?

 

Oh, also;

 

Actually, if we look in the canon, Goku only defeated Buu in Z: Vegeta survived thanks to Goku's plea to Krillin (Preventing him from managing to defeat someone!) Freeza survived only to be killed with ease by Trunks.

 

Then in GT he gets to defeat the main villians himself, and in Dragon Ball I think he did too

 

Then in GT he gets to defeat the main villians himself, and in Dragon Ball I think he did too

 

Then in GT

 

GT

 

 

Edited February 1, 2013 by -Mark-

[-Robin-]

I could have sworn there were a couple of Daizenshuu interviews where he explicitly stated such, but I can't seem to find them. Seems that I may have been suckered into commonly accepted fanon and took them as fact. ;

I did find this though: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=15102. That may help put some fan theories to rest.

19 and 20 were definitely originally intended to be the Big Bads of the Android Saga, but the Majin Piccolo theory is unfounded. I blame SuperSonic Warriors 2.

Also:

Interviewer: And then the Cell arc ended. Did you think that everyone felt you would put Gohan into the leading role?

Toriyama: I intended to put Gohan into the leading role. It didn't work out. I felt that compared to Goku, he was ultimately not suited for the part.

Welp, case closed. Sorry Goten, sorry Gohan. Edited February 1, 2013 by Joshua

[Kuzu]

That just seems so stupid tho; Goku wasn't even in DBZ most of the time, it was generally Gohan, Vegeta, or Piccolo in the main focus, hell Z seems to chronicle their lives more than it does Goku's, so what the eff.

[Yoko/葉子]

I read that Toriyama's favorite fight was young Goku vs. Demon King Piccolo. 

[Kuzu]

I now know why Goku vs. Majin Vegeta is one of my favorite fights along with Goku vs. Frieza, dat animation. What made DBZ such a spectacle was watching the different animators show their stuff and just how well if flowed, this guide shows most of the animation styles used in the show; highlights include

 

 

 

 

 

 

Also, most of these guys would go on to later do One Piece.

[-Robin-]

I'm a fan of Keisuke Masunaga's work; the first episode of the original DBZ they did, No More Rules, has some of my favorite animation in the series, due to how phenomenally fast-paced Masunaga and Studio Cockpit made the episode appear, compared to other episodes. We're told that the fighters are always moving super fast in fights, as far back as Yamcha vs. the Saibaman - No More Rules really shows that speed, though.

It also helps that they animated this wonderful bit in Cell Juniors Attack!:

I'm a fan of Maeda as well. The Super Saiyan Goku pose is great.

Edited February 5, 2013 by Joshua

[MugiMikey]

Actually, if we look in the canon, Goku only defeated Buu in Z: Vegeta survived thanks to Goku's plea to Krillin (Preventing him from managing to defeat someone!) Freeza survived only to be killed with ease by Trunks.

 

Then in GT he gets to defeat the main villians himself, and in Dragon Ball I think he did too

Goku also killed Yakkon in Z.

 

Other than those two, he hasn't taken any other lives in Z.

 

Dragon Ball, on the other hand? In his younger years, Goku didn't hesitate to murder at all. He could have killed Freeza (and easily) if he wanted to. He surely talked the talk, but he could never back it up because he became a huge pushover as he got older. Hm. Just poor writing from Toriyama, methinks.

 

Also, yeah, since Goku became a kid in GT, it's like Toei knew and brought back his will to kill his enemies again. Maybe they kind of had to because GT was nothing but Goku.

[Kuzu]

Actually that's a common thing for the early parts of any work; characterization tends to change a lot. Like how Piccolo & Vegeta essentially swapping personalities and temprement

[-Robin-]

A little fanon I like to keep is that after his death during the battle with Raditz, Goku saw and understood exactly what was on the other side, and knowing that those who weren't exceptionally pure and powerful did not get to keep their bodies - and those that were evil had their souls cleansed and reincarnated - he figured he would give his enemies at least one chance to live their lives in peace and give them some chance to understand life before all their memories were erased and had to start over.

Yakon was completely lost, since it did not have the willpower to override Babidi's control, but since they needed to kill Yakon to get to Babidi anyway, it was a price Goku had to pay.

Edited February 6, 2013 by Joshua

[MugiMikey]

Actually that's a common thing for the early parts of any work; characterization tends to change a lot. Like how Piccolo & Vegeta essentially swapping personalities and temprement

Yeah, pretty much. It started with Vegeta but after that I think it kinda jumped the shark. He thought Vegeta would eventually see the light, seeing as it happened with Piccolo and all (and just in case he wouldn't, he wanted to use letting Vegeta live as an excuse to fight more). I know he gave Freeza several chances, and he definitely got taken advantage of, but even after Freeza's final betrayal Goku STILL didn't finish him off properly. He also gave up against Cell prematurely just to see if his son could stand a chance. It makes me feel that even as a child he took his enemies and the saftey of his loved ones a bit more seriously. Just how reversed it is makes me believe Toriyama was kinda slacking on his characterization. I don't mind much, though, 'cause Goku is still such a lovable oaf. I still find myself liking that reliable side that was able to take care of business when needed and the willingness to avenge that he had when he was a kid a little more, though.

Edited February 6, 2013 by MugiMikey

[Vec]

I still think they should have kept Vegeta's moustache. Imagine dat SSJ stache!!!

[-Robin-]

Goku only spared Vegeta's life so that he could have a rematch in the future. Nothing more, nothing less. Vegeta gave Goku a good reason and incentive to continue training.

Goku blasted Freeza so thoroughly with that final shot that he probably couldn't sense his energy any longer. And even if he was still barely alive, Goku anticipated that Freeza being in such a weakened state would mean he would capitulate to Namek's explosion. Freeza surviving was sheer luck.

Also, in the original timeline, upon Freeza's and King Cold's arrival on Earth, Goku uses Instant Transmission to confront them, and he does kill them then and there.

Goku knew full well he would be unable to defeat Cell, no matter what. So having Gohan step in wasn't so much him surrendering prematurely than it was making sure Gohan could harness the power he recently unlocked in the Room of Spirit and Time, and save the planet more securely than Goku could.

[GEO1452]

Never really been into dragonball/anime... Anyone can help me where to start?

[MugiMikey]

Exactly, he wanted Vegeta to live so he could get the thrill of a fight again later on. He even said it's probably because of his Saiyan blood.

 

Yeah, Freeza surviving was definitely a fluke, but it wouldn't have come to that if he just finished him off way before that. He was really cutting it close, all for the sake of wanting to teach Freeza a lesson he would never learn. He seemed more set on Freeza sharing the same fate with the planet rather than killing him off himself.

 

Even when he first heard about Freeza, what he's done, and how dangerous he is, all that went through Goku's mind was "Yay! A super strong guy!" If this was younger Goku, I have a feeling he'd think something along the lines of "I'm gonna get rid of this guy before he puts my friends in danger!"

 

Even after witnessing the death of Vegeta and Kuririn, he told Freeza he wasn't going to show him any mercy, despite contradicting himself multiple times when given the proper chance to kill him. He tried killing him with the Genki Dama, but as a Super Saiyan he just seemed more merciful than anything.

 

He was supposed to kill Freeza and King Cold before Trunks interrupted the timeline, but that didn't end up happening. If it wasn't for Trunks, Freeza and his father would have wreaked havoc on the planet and Goku would have been held responsible either way.

 

He had Gohan step in because he had a feeling if he got angry enough he would stand a chance, so Goku decided to gamble on it. Gohan getting angry enough to defeat Cell wasn't a for sure thing. Goku knew he couldn't beat Cell, but it was unlike him to quit so early because of how much he enjoys fighting. He didn't seem to treat Gohan like a last resort; he was actually pretty quick to throw him in the ring. Compared to other fights in the series, even if he knew he couldn't win, I still think he would have tried a little more. Just my two cents.

[Sami]

Never really been into dragonball/anime... Anyone can help me where to start?

 

Not with Dragon Ball.

 

What genres do you like?

[Tori Himemiya]

Never really been into dragonball/anime... Anyone can help me where to start?

You can start from Dragonball episode 1 and watch 150 episodes of that and watch DBZ.

Or you could skip that knowing that everyone not named Piccolo at the time are Goku's friend and watch Dragonball Z Kai as it cuts down a lot of filter.

Its ok if its not appealing as Dragonball isn't for everyone.

[GEO1452]

You can start from Dragonball episode 1 and watch 150 episodes of that and watch DBZ.Or you could skip that knowing that everyone not named Piccolo at the time are Goku's friend and watch Dragonball Z Kai as it cuts down a lot of filter.Its ok if its not appealing as Dragonball isn't for everyone.

Hmm.... I see... Might try kai then after i watch dbz

Not with Dragon Ball.   What genres do you like?

Well, i like action, drama. Crime, comedy, stuff like that

[Sami]

To elaborate; Dragon Ball Z is old. Very much a product of its time, and about as shounen (action genre for young boys/teens) as it can possibly get. The pacing is horrendous, the plot is bare-bones, and in my opinion, it's generally just painful to watch at this point.

 

If you want to give Dragon Ball a shot, read the manga. The original series is more of a comedy and has a bit more vulgar humor, while Z is an action thing with plenty of comic relief. I love both (again, the manga. I wouldn't touch the anime with a ten-foot pole though), personally.

 

 

well, i like action, drama. Crime, comedy, stuff like that

Watch Cowboy Bebop. Or Samurai Champloo. Or Fullmetal Alchemist. Or Soul Eater. 

 

All of these shows are infinitely better than Dragon Ball. Champloo, FMA, and Soul Eater are all on Netflix as well, but Bebop is definitely worth checking out too. It's one of the most influential series in all of anime, and still holds up extremely well.

[-Robin-]

Yeah, Freeza surviving was definitely a fluke, but it wouldn't have come to that if he just finished him off way before that. He was really cutting it close, all for the sake of wanting to teach Freeza a lesson he would never learn. He seemed more set on Freeza sharing the same fate with the planet rather than killing him off himself.

Dying by an explosion would cut deeper into Freeza's psyche than Goku killing him himself would. Not only does Freeza die by what was basically his own maneuver, he was also denied death by the Saiyan. He's effectively telling the emperor of the universe "You are so out of my league and not worth my effort that I won't even kill you by my own hand. Have fun with this indirect suicide, you coward."

 

Even when he first heard about Freeza, what he's done, and how dangerous he is, all that went through Goku's mind was "Yay! A super strong guy!" If this was younger Goku, I have a feeling he'd think something along the lines of "I'm gonna get rid of this guy before he puts my friends in danger!"

Goku does recognize Freeza's strength, but after escaping near death by Vegeta, he's particularly astounded that someone is around that could make Vegeta appear like nothing. As focused as Goku is to defeat Vegeta, imagining Freeza as next up on his list doesn't seem too far off.

 

Even after witnessing the death of Vegeta and Kuririn, he told Freeza he wasn't going to show him any mercy, despite contradicting himself multiple times when given the proper chance to kill him. He tried killing him with the Genki Dama, but as a Super Saiyan he just seemed more merciful than anything.

"Every vestige of Goku's reason has given way to the unmitigated rage of the Super Saiyan." SSJ Goku was more concerned with tearing Freeza's confidence, pride, and body to shreds than he was about killing him outright. What pain and misery is Freeza going to feel if he's at King Yemma's station in an instant?

 

He was supposed to kill Freeza and King Cold before Trunks interrupted the timeline, but that didn't end up happening. If it wasn't for Trunks, Freeza and his father would have wreaked havoc on the planet and Goku would have been held responsible either way.

 

But in the original timeline, Goku was there to fight the two in a flash. Trunks literally intervened a split second before Goku would have.

He had Gohan step in because he had a feeling if he got angry enough he would stand a chance, so Goku decided to gamble on it. Gohan getting angry enough to defeat Cell wasn't a for sure thing. Goku knew he couldn't beat Cell, but it was unlike him to quit so early because of how much he enjoys fighting. He didn't seem to treat Gohan like a last resort; he was actually pretty quick to throw him in the ring. Compared to other fights in the series, even if he knew he couldn't win, I still think he would have tried a little more. Just my two cents.

Goku continued to fight in prior battles because he knew he was the strongest among the group that could, so he was left with little choice. Seeing Gohan ascend to SSJ2 for just an instant in the Room of Spirit of Time made him realize "Hey, there's something there. Let's make sure Gohan can take control of this newfound power that I can't reach so that the world can stay safe after Cell." It's definitely a rash thought, one that Piccolo calls Goku out on, but it was still the best shot they had, since Instant Kamehameha likely wouldn't work a second time and Cell was aware of the Spirit Bomb for it to have a chance of working. Edited February 6, 2013 by Joshua

[Tori Himemiya]

Hmm.... I see... Might try kai then after i watch dbz Well, i like action, drama. Crime, comedy, stuff like that

Well Kai is basically cut down DBZ.

It does cut down a sufficient portion of the series so if you're shouting out "Are they still on Namek!?" switch to Kai.

Kai only goes up to the Cell saga so far so if you want the Buu saga then DBZ it is.

[Kuzu]

Aren't they continuing with Kai.

[-Robin-]

Interviews from Piccolo's and Krillin's VAs confirm it. There's just no projected date for when it comes out.

[MugiMikey]

Dying by an explosion would cut deeper into Freeza's psyche than Goku killing him himself would. Not only does Freeza die by what was basically his own maneuver, he was also denied death by the Saiyan. He's effectively telling the emperor of the universe "You are so out of my league and not worth my effort that I won't even kill you by my own hand. Have fun with this indirect suicide, you coward."

 Goku does recognize Freeza's strength, but after escaping near death by Vegeta, he's particularly astounded that someone is around that could make Vegeta appear like nothing. As focused as Goku is to defeat Vegeta, imagining Freeza as next up on his list doesn't seem too far off.

This is true, yes, but Gohan also had this same attitude while fighting Cell and Goku acted against it. He told Gohan to stop messing around and finish Cell off before he had the chance to get desperate. Because both villains were given the chance, they pretty much resorted to the same thing. Hell, Goku probably learned from his mistake with Freeza and that's why he warned Gohan. It was too close of a call.

 

 "Every vestige of Goku's reason has given way to the unmitigated rage of the Super Saiyan." SSJ Goku was more concerned with tearing Freeza's confidence, pride, and body to shreds than he was about killing him outright. What pain and misery is Freeza going to feel if he's at King Yemma's station in an instant?

I know, but the planet was ready to explode at any moment. Goku was hoping he'd find a way off, but he had no idea how. Freeza was so desperate that even though he lost the battle, he would have been satisfied if Goku had died in the explosion. If Goku hadn't had a little bit of luck when he found that space pod, Freeza would have been happy. Like I said, I think Goku learned from cutting this close because of his behavior at the battle with Cell.

 

But in the original timeline, Goku was there to fight the two in a flash. Trunks literally intervened a split second before Goku would have.

 

But that didn't happen in the normal timeline. They arrived over three hours before Goku did. That would have been plenty of time for Freeza's men to destroy several cities and probably kill millions.

 

Goku continued to fight in prior battles because he knew he was the strongest among the group that could, so he was left with little choice. Seeing Gohan ascend to SSJ2 for just an instant in the Room of Spirit of Time made him realize "Hey, there's something there. Let's make sure Gohan can take control of this newfound power that I can't reach so that the world can stay safe after Cell." It's definitely a rash thought, one that Piccolo calls Goku out on, but it was still the best shot they had, since Instant Kamehameha likely wouldn't work a second time and Cell was aware of the Spirit Bomb for it to have a chance of working.

 

Goku continued to fight because he loved to fight. He was aware he was above others, but he didn't stop others from getting their turn because of it, even if they were at a disadvantage. In Z, he had the habit of stepping in at the last minute while the others were weakened (but this isn't always the case). Gohan didn't go to SSJ2 in the RoSaT at all, by the way. What happened was Goku was aware of the dormant power inside Gohan that's awakened while enraged, and was pretty much counting on Gohan getting angry. He, along with everybody else, was surprised when Gohan went SSJ2.

Edited February 6, 2013 by MugiMikey

[Vec]

 

Not really. They arrived over three hours before Goku did. That would have been plenty of time for Freeza's men to destroy several cities and probably kill millions.

What I got that was intended to happen is that Goku was going to use teleportation to reach there inmediately and defeat both of them. But the arrival of Trunks (And Cell too I think. Dunno, I remember the explanation being a bit complex back then...) caused an alteration of the main events, for example the appearance of a 3rd android (16)