Sonic '06 Done Right.

[Dejablue]

Thats what I mean by spiritual remake. You're not actually remaking Sonic 06. But taking stuff from the heap and creating something totally new with it. But I didn't start this topic so I don't know what the OP wants.

[HUNTER297]

You know what! No! We cant forget 06. SEGA cant forget 06! It must be there. Whenever ST will be like "Guys lets Rush it we dont have time!" this game wil pop-up in everyone's heads. It will be there. 06 will be here with us till this series ends. And I think it shouldnt be forgotten. That game will become warning. Warning to everyone that even biggest potential can be destroyed. And I think it shouldnt be forgotten.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

You know what! No! We cant forget 06. SEGA cant forget 06! It must be there. Whenever ST will be like "Guys lets Rush it we dont have time!" this game wil pop-up in everyone's heads. It will be there. 06 will be here with us till this series ends. And I think it shouldnt be forgotten. That game will become warning. Warning to everyone that even biggest potential can be destroyed. And I think it shouldnt be forgotten.

[VO.SUPER]

Time, money, resources, sanity...

Edited November 30, 2011 by VisionaryBlur

[RDNexus]

I asked before and I'll try again, is there any SEGA staff member in this forum?

I'd like to have such a kind of person in this topic to tell us his/her opinions...

[Dejablue]

I really doubt there are any sega staff people on this forum. If there is they'd be in lurk mode double time,

[RDNexus]

And they SHOULD! It could help them a lot if they were to read what we talk about in a daily basis.

Edited November 30, 2011 by XRick

[HUNTER297]

And they SHOULD! Who knows what good could make them to read what we talk about in a daily basis, it could help them a lot.

[Dejablue]

Pfft this topic is like a car revving up in muddy ditch and digging itself further the dirt and getting stuck. People saying we should just let the idea drop vs the people who want to re think the issue playing tug o war and nothing really gets talked about. 5 pages of bickering.

And....I'm being a total hypocrite. All my posts have done is add to the post count with not a single potent idea in them. I need to fix this.

But you guys are a tough crowd. I have a story idea but now I'm reluctant to share it.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Dejablue

[Scar]

Pfft this topic is like a car revving up in muddy ditch and digging itself further the dirt and getting stuck. People saying we should just let the idea drop vs the people who want to re think the issue playing tug o war and nothing really gets talked about. 5 pages of bickering.

And....I'm being a total hypocrite. All my posts have done is add to the post count with not a single potent idea in them. I need to fix this.

But you guys are a tough crowd. I have a story idea but now I'm reluctant to share it.

[Diogenes]

It probably wouldn't hence the word, "remake".

...what?

And the Mach Speed section proved to be the predecessor of those fun sections. So as a concept, they aren't bad. They just needed to be improved upon.

As a concept, they are bad. Being forced to run forward is a bad idea, and that is the concept behind the mach speed stages. Whether or not they influenced Unleashed is irrelevant, as the differences are great enough for them to be different concepts. How, exactly, do you picture mach speed sections working in this remake, while still being mach speed sections?

Essentially, a Sonic clone.

Yes, because Sonic has rocket shoes and teleports everywhere...

Unless you can think of alternate gameplay for Shadow that can differ him enough from Sonic without really stopping the pace of the game.

Between his rocket shoes, offensive chaos powers, time manipulation powers, and space manipulation powers, there are plenty of ways to differentiate him from Sonic. You don't need to stick him in a jeep to do so.

(In all honesty, if the vehicles worked, they wouldn't be too different from Sonic or Shadow in style, just in aesthetics.)

Cars are Sonic clones?

Also, using his Chaos Energy attacks wouldn't work well either. Remember, this game follows the Adventure design, which ShTH followed. We saw how well long ranged weapons worked for characters like him.

There's nothing wrong with Shadow having ranged attacks, the problem is how ShtH handled it. Thematically, using realistic weaponry (any weaponry, really) was a terrible idea. Having the game focus mostly on running forward and shooting everything was a terrible idea. Give him some sort of Chaos Spear and reduce the combat and it can work fine.

Ripoff doesn't really count as a bad trait.

Yes it does. And no, its not okay if a lot of people do it.

I thought his design was pretty nice; he didn't really seem to scream ugly or out there,

The giant fucking pot leaf on his forehead doesn't scream "out there" to you?

His combat was clunky because of the awful controls of everyone.

That exacerbates the problem, but at its core it involves plodding to a pile of crates, picking them up, and throwing them. At everything. At least until you get the stun upgrade, at which point you can plod up to enemies, stun them, then throw them at other enemies.

Slow can't even be used as a detractor of the character, as the levels weren't made to accommodate Silver in a way that he could play fast when the player gets better using him.

The only way that levels could make Silver fast is by putting dash pads everywhere. He moves slow. Even for a game where everyone moves slow, he moves fucking slow.

In the old Sonic games, if you wanted to find secrets on your first try, you had to go slow in which you would get faster as you got better in memorizing the map.

That the older, better games gave you the option to go fast and actiony or slow and exploratory does not make it okay to have a character that can only go slow.

What ended up being terrible was due to poor execution, but this argument was about concepts. You have failed to provide me with any evidence that the concepts were terrible.

You haven't even defined what concepts are supposed to be good. You spit some vague nonsense about how it was probably better earlier on, how am I supposed to disprove something that only Sonic Team knows about? The story as we know it is crap. The individual pieces of that story are crap. And this supposed early script, all I know is that it led to crap. If you're going to invoke an earlier, better version of the story, you need to provide it, not just suggest that one might exist.

If they were, then SEGA wouldn't have green-lit this game.

Can you look at ShtH and say that? "Yes, this dark, edgy spinoff about a talking animal angsting about his forgotten past and shooting soldiers and aliens is truly a brilliant concept!" They fucked up, man. They may have thought it was a good idea, but it wasn't.

What's worth saving? Nothing's worth saving for '06.

Great, case closed, topic over.

What I am concerning myself with is the major boon SEGA would get if they remade a truly awful game.

And that would be jack and shit, because all this does is reopen old wounds.

'06 is unsalvageable. Attaching '06's name to anything only hurts it. '06 is the fucking nuclear waste storage of video games; they can't save it, they need to bury it and erect a sign: "Stay out. There is nothing good here. There is only sickness and death."

[VO.SUPER]

Pfft this topic is like a car revving up in muddy ditch and digging itself further the dirt and getting stuck. People saying we should just let the idea drop vs the people who want to re think the issue playing tug o war and nothing really gets talked about. 5 pages of bickering.

And....I'm being a total hypocrite. All my posts have done is add to the post count with not a single potent idea in them. I need to fix this.

But you guys are a tough crowd. I have a story idea but now I'm reluctant to share it.

Go ahead. The minute Sonic '06 was mentioned with something other than seething hate, this topic was going to move onto arguments. But if you feel your post adds to the point, then share.

[Dejablue]

Ok. Well I have 2 ideas. One is "oh so srs" well sort of. The other is kind of silly.

Serious Idea: Make Blaze the princess who may or may not need to be rescued at any given point depending on the story. Instead of Time travel have it be Dimensional travel and another "sequel" to Rush.

-Silver is a warrior/friend from Blaze's world.

-Blaze and Silver are on a mission to stop Mephelis.

-Mephelis is an inter dimensional monster who wants to collapse everything into one dimension so he can rule it all at once. If that makes Mephey sound too much like the time monster in Generations that's probably because it does sound too similar. But believe it or not I had this idea in my head about a year or two after 06 was released.

-If Silver does not hail from Blaze's world then he is some kind of "Dimension cop"

-There is no Iblis and Shadow isn't involved.

-Sonic, Blaze, and Silver meet up when Mephelis appears in Sonic's dimension and begins to screw stuff up.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Dejablue

[VO.SUPER]

As a concept, they are bad. Being forced to run forward is a bad idea, and that is the concept behind the mach speed stages. Whether or not they influenced Unleashed is irrelevant, as the differences are great enough for them to be different concepts. How, exactly, do you picture mach speed sections working in this remake, while still being mach speed sections?

Yes, because Sonic has rocket shoes and teleports everywhere...

And when has Shadow ever used those special teleportation powers out of cutscenes and special conditions. I only ever recall, SA2 using that.

Plus, rocket shoes are just there to make him run fast. Sound familiar?

Between his rocket shoes, offensive chaos powers, time manipulation powers, and space manipulation powers, there are plenty of ways to differentiate him from Sonic. You don't need to stick him in a jeep to do so.

There's nothing wrong with Shadow having ranged attacks, the problem is how ShtH handled it. Thematically, using realistic weaponry (any weaponry, really) was a terrible idea. Having the game focus mostly on running forward and shooting everything was a terrible idea. Give him some sort of Chaos Spear and reduce the combat and it can work fine.

Yes, one Chaos spear and that's it. Come, if you really want to prove me wrong, then write me a full gameplay schematic of how Shadow would fight that would make him really different. Write about how it would work in gameplay because I'm dying to hear.

Cars are Sonic clones?

If the vehicle jumps (which they usually do) then yes.

Yes it does. And no, its not okay if a lot of people do it.

Then hate the people, not the character.

The giant fucking pot leaf on his forehead doesn't scream "out there" to you?

Yes, as much as the talking blue hedgehog, the chicken legged moustached scientist, the red echidna, the two tailed fox, the walking rabbit with a basketball head, the purple cat, and so on.

That exacerbates the problem, but at its core it involves plodding to a pile of crates, picking them up, and throwing them. At everything. At least until you get the stun upgrade, at which point you can plod up to enemies, stun them, then throw them at other enemies.

No less repetitive than running and jumping.

Easily solved, just make it so:

1. the objects autolocks on all enemies.

2. Doesn't make Silver stop when he throws the objects.

The only way that levels could make Silver fast is by putting dash pads everywhere. He moves slow. Even for a game where everyone moves slow, he moves fucking slow.

Then make him a little faster, so he can at least move at Knuckles speed. Easily fixed.

That the older, better games gave you the option to go fast and actiony or slow and exploratory does not make it okay to have a character that can only go slow.

A fault of the finalized product, not the concept.

You haven't even defined what concepts are supposed to be good. You spit some vague nonsense about how it was probably better earlier on, how am I supposed to disprove something that only Sonic Team knows about? The story as we know it is crap. The individual pieces of that story are crap. And this supposed early script, all I know is that it led to crap. If you're going to invoke an earlier, better version of the story, you need to provide it, not just suggest that one might exist.

Can you look at ShtH and say that? "Yes, this dark, edgy spinoff about a talking animal angsting about his forgotten past and shooting soldiers and aliens is truly a brilliant concept!" They fucked up, man. They may have thought it was a good idea, but it wasn't.

Great, case closed, topic over.

And that would be jack and shit, because all this does is reopen old wounds.

The early on stuff is the concept.

I've explained plenty of times why the concepts "you" listed are good, but you refuse to listen.

You just keep speaking subjective hatred about how you hate all the sections without giving a passing objective thought to anything going on here

.

Also, this wasn't about ShTH's concept, this was about '06.

Go ahead, leave the thread then. It probably would be better on your mind if you do.

'06 is unsalvageable. Attaching '06's name to anything only hurts it. '06 is the fucking nuclear waste storage of video games; they can't save it, they need to bury it and erect a sign: "Stay out. There is nothing good here. There is only sickness and death."

Phew, can we get a fire extinguisher here? I think this boiler is about to blow, if it hasn't already.

[Diogenes]

And when has Shadow ever used those special teleportation powers out of cutscenes and special conditions. I only ever recall, SA2 using that.

For someone who thinks '06 can be fixed, you're disappointingly bad at creating new ideas.

Yes, one Chaos spear and that's it. Come, if you really want to prove me wrong, then write me a full gameplay schematic of how Shadow would fight that would make him really different. Write about how it would work in gameplay because I'm dying to hear.

I don't have the time nor the motivation to write up an entire post on Shadow's gameplay, but if you can't understand that the wide variety of abilities that Shadow already has are a better way to differentiate him than putting him in a jeep...I don't think anything I can say would convince you.

If the vehicle jumps (which they usually do) then yes.

You're fucking with me, right?

Then hate the people, not the character.

I can hate both, because they're both shit.

No less repetitive than running and jumping.

Maybe if you've been raised on crappy games, but there was a time when Sonic actually did interesting things with running and jumping.

The early on stuff is the concept.

What early-on stuff?

I've explained plenty of times why the concepts "you" listed are good, but you refuse to listen.

No you haven't, you've either insisted that they're okay or that they can be fixed, without giving me any further reasoning or examples.

You just keep speaking subjective hatred about how you hate all the sections without giving a passing objective thought to anything going on here

Please don't use words you don't understand.

Also, this wasn't about ShTH's concept, this was about '06.

The point is that they went along with one abysmal concept before, so there's no reason to assume that going along with '06 means that there was anything of value there.

[RDNexus]

@Diogenes

About Shadow having more than enough skills to make him different in a sense from Sonic, I think so too.

@VisionaryBlur

You've been talking about Early-On Concept, specially about the game's early plot, but could you care to tell us more about that early plot? At the least I'm interested.

Edited November 30, 2011 by XRick

[Scar]

@VisionaryBlur

You've been talking about Early-On Concept, specially about the game's early plot, but could you care to tell us more about that early plot? At the least I'm interested.

Yes, I too would be interested to know what the early concept for the game's plot was.

As far as I'm concerned, 06's plot was terribly written, overflowing with plot inconsitancies and problems. The characterisation was bland and unappealing save for Shadow and arguably Mephiles. The dialogue was absolutely pitiful. Sonic served no purpose within the plot beyond being someone who Elise fell in love with, whose death resulted in Elise crying and the plot-monster being awakened. Silver's story was most unecessary as Mephiles was known to be able to travel through time and thus could have killed Sonic any time he wanted while he was distracted by something shiny and thus didn't require Silver's assistance at all. Blaze was shoehorned into the plot because Silver needed a companion, nothing more than that really. Iblis wasn't a character, mainly an object or more accurately a consequence.

There is nothing salvagable in this plot. In order to improve it, you'd need to burn it and make a new plot entirely.

I would love to know how a seemingly good plot-concept devolved into the horrible pile of shit that was 06's pathetic attempt at a story.

[Dejablue]

My second idea is silly like I said. What would anyone's opinion be if 06's "spiritual successor" was a lot more light hearted than it actually was?

Also Scar, I recently posted my idea of how to rewrite 06's story and maintaining a semi serious tone. I'm curious to know what people's opinions are on it. I think it could salvage something.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Dejablue

[Scar]

My second idea is silly like I said. What would anyone's opinion be if 06's "spiritual successor" was a lot more light hearted than it actually was?

I wouldn't care. I have no attachment to 06's plot and would love to see any version of it which wasn't totally crap. The story itself lacked any humour and it really could have done with some.

[KingMan]

Sorry, but I don't think a Sonic '06 remake is likely to be worth it. Even if Sega fixed the bugs, polished the graphics, gameplay and voice acting, the plot is too much of a convoluted mess to be worth it, bile fascination for these kinds of stories notwithstanding.

[Scar]

Also Scar, I recently posted my idea of how to rewrite 06's story and maintaining a semi serious tone. I'm curious to know what people's opinions are on it. I think it could salvage something.

It was an interesting idea. Could do with some development. Though I think Iblis being created by Sonic leaving the oven on is a little too much

[Indigo Rush]

Sonic 2006 makes people argue.

The Flame Wars of Disaster.

[Dejablue]

It was an interesting idea. Could do with some development. Though I think Iblis being created by Sonic leaving the oven on is a little too much

Hm? I didn't talk about Sonic baking and creating Iblis. I think you mistook my post as someone elses.

[RhikoruFa-La-La-La-♪]

Dear Sonic fanbase and reviewers,

Yeah, we messed up. Sonic 06 was bad, but it was also 5 years ago. We want to make good games again. Let it go and move on...we have.

It'll be okay.

SEGA

----

Honestly, Sonic 06 was bad, but it's ship has sailed. The thing is, it's like rebuilding a Pinto ripped to shreds in an automobile accident. It might have been functional at some point in time, but was that functionality even good?

The effort to rebuild it to a point not just of functionality, but of something good would necessitate the removal of so much bad crap and structure that you're better off just taking that time and money and put it into tweaking and sprucing up the good car with minor flaws you have right now (Generations/Colors).

[Scar]

Hm? I didn't talk about Sonic baking and creating Iblis. I think you mistook my post as someone elses.