New Smash Bros?

[Remy]

What exactly constitutes as a 'true' combo? You seem to be creating sub-categorisation for the sake of dividing the two games, when both in-fact possess the possibility of combo attacks.

[Blacklightning]

Eh, it didn't particularly bother me that much because I'm more a fan of reset combos (and all the inherent mindgames) than anything else, but it certaintly wouldn't kill them to increase the hitstun a tad just to make traditional combos actually viable at low damage levels. Big problem with Brawl's metagame is that the vast majority of combos can be airdodged or rolled out of before the second or third hit due to criminally low hitstun, and while I'm definently fine with a little cccccombo breaker every now and then it shouldn't make up the entirety of Smash's competitive value - save it for, say, 70-80% damage and upwards, where a single good hit is likely to kill you anyway.

[#EndyGate]

What if N were another Pokemon character type character?

I know he had different pokemon in every battle, but I remember Zourark being in the final battle. I think that should be one of them instead of being his own thing. He could come out randomly looking like one of N's other two pokemon until he got hit.

The very image of this possibility just made my day. Though I would have personally prefered to have played as N himself, with several of his pokemon acting as B/special moves with Reshiram and Zekrom (or whatever pokemon he has in pokemon gray seeing as this will likely come out after it) as his final smash, though Zoroark as one of his pokemon probably wouldn't work, since she was featured in a movie she's likely to be playable on her own.

But I really hope that a trainer will eventually be able to fight on their own, but really it goes against the series so it would probably be better to stick with the pokemon trainer formula

[Remy]

Eh, it didn't particularly bother me that much because I'm more a fan of reset combos (and all the inherent mindgames) than anything else, but it certaintly wouldn't kill them to increase the hitstun a tad just to make traditional combos actually viable at low damage levels. Big problem with Brawl's metagame is that the vast majority of combos can be airdodged or rolled out of before the second or third hit due to criminally low hitstun, and while I'm definently fine with a little cccccombo breaker every now and then it shouldn't make up the entirety of Smash's competitive value - save it for, say, 70-80% damage and upwards, where a single good hit is likely to kill you anyway.

I think it somewhat unfairly slants the game towards defensive play, because the rewards of being on the offence in Brawl are greatly outweighed by the rewards of sitting on your ass and countering everything.

Brawl is somewhat unique in this regard in that, more of your move-set tends to matter, and every decision seems to carry a greater weight, and possible consequence, and must be made quickly.

Your moveset matters more when you can be punished by a combo or similar longish set of moves then when after you make a mistake or guess incorrectly you're back at pretty much square one like in brawl. If anything Brawl's moves have lesser weight and consequence then any other fighter.

And speed/quickness in brawl is nothing compared to something like Guilty Gear

[Blacklightning]

I think it somewhat unfairly slants the game towards defensive play, because the rewards of being on the offence in Brawl are greatly outweighed by the rewards of sitting on your ass and countering everything.

Thing about Smash Bros is if only because of its focus on attacks with ridiculously high knockback (at least as long as we're comparing to traditional fighters here), there is a time and place for it. Like I said, ideally traditonal comboing should be most viable at low damage because it at least keeps your victim within arm's reach as long as that's true - by the time knockback starts kicking in greater though, most fighters can't (and for that matter, probably shouldn't) keep a traditional combo up short of jacking hitstun up to absolutely retarded levels - even a good chasing combo doesn't generally last longer than 1-3 hits after the first launch unless it's a loop or infinite of some kind.

Frankly though, if someone survives an assault at 80% damage, whether by fault of the offender or the defender, the way I see it they deserve a breather like that anyway. Just as long as we can combo Melee/64 style at low damage, I figure it won't hurt too much to do a bit of both.

[Facehugger]

Combo: A sequence of attacks inescapable after the first hit until the end.

Edited July 9, 2011 by Facehugger

[Blacklightning]

Not necessarily. Combos are just simply a series of attacks strung-together, wether you hit the enemy with each one or not.

[Facehugger]

Just looked up the Dictionary to double-check.

Combo = combination.

As I said, a combo of attacks is still a combo of attacks wether an enemy takes each sucessive blow or not. The only difference is that the former was a combo that landed.

Edited July 9, 2011 by Facehugger

[Marcello]

Smash Bros had combos?

[Blacklightning]

Just looked up the Dictionary to double-check.

[Remy]

But it is something compared to Melee.

yeah, compared to melee it's slow and floaty.

I see Blacklightning already covered the combo thing. :L

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

You'd be surprised.

Holy crap, I suddenly want to play my N64 all of sudden.

Brawl DEFINITELY doesn't have combos like that, and the new smash bros game would easily benefit for hardcore players if it did. And you know, it's funny when you consider that Smash Bros 64 had a rather easy learning curve while Melee was considerably different as Brawl was different in those areas...or am I completely pulling that out of my ass?

[Tatsumaki]

Holy crap, I suddenly want to play my N64 all of sudden.

Brawl DEFINITELY doesn't have combos like that, and the new smash bros game would easily benefit for hardcore players if it did. And you know, it's funny when you consider that Smash Bros 64 had a rather easy learning curve while Melee was considerably different as Brawl was different in those areas...or am I completely pulling that out of my ass?

No, you're not. At least I think the same.

Thing is, Smash Bros. 64 is considered to be really hardcore, together with Melee. Well, that's what I think. Playing Tournament Mode in Melee with friends was very intense. Combo-making was faster, faster-paced gameplay, and characters could get KO'd easier. In general, I find Melee and 64 to be the best out of the three. (I prefer Melee, though.)

EDIT:

(If you'll excuse me, I'll be playing Smash 64, because now I really want to play it all of a sudden )

Edited July 9, 2011 by Tatsumaki

[Chooch]

No, your moveset matters more because you cannot land one hit on the opponent and carry them in large combos.

As a lover and active player of fighting games, I look at this statement as if it's completely contradictory. Landing one hit and carrying an opponent into a large combo makes decision making (and subsequently correctly utilizing your moveset) that much more important in other fighting games in comparison to Smash Bros. How can you seriously think otherwise?

In Smash Bros. making a multitude of bad decisions may not even bring you above 40-50% in damage depending on the match up and usually in those instances you can easily even it out in an instant. There are no set ups after a combo or okizeme like there is in other fighting games. At the most you could consider each small period of time after one opponent hits another to be a reset, but in other fighting games, resets into no damage aren't really worthwhile resets most of the time.

If you get knocked to the ground in Smash Bros. you can just ukemi out of the way of any follow up attacks like it's no big deal etc etc. It's ridiculous.

In a game like Brawl it is imperative to think quickly on your feet while taking your entire moveset into account, moreso than in other fighting games

You do understand that what you just mentioned is something that is a basic staple of any legitimate competitive fighting game, right? I could literally just slap any game title in the place where you mentioned Brawl and the sentence would work. Regardless of that, as is, this statement isn't really correct at all at the end of the day.

Super Smash Bros. Brawl is not designed to be a serious competitive fighting game and it shows. Sakurai has even gone on record multiple times personally saying that that is the case. In fact, he mentioned that Smash Bros. was created as a response to other serious, far more complicated fighting games; having Smash Bros. as a much easier, much more accessible alternative. If Sakurai honestly cared at all about the competitive scene for Smash Bros. we would not have the major split that came from the direction he took the series going from Melee to Brawl.

By technicality, Smash Bros. is a three button game. There is an Attack button, a Special button, and a Shield button. The Grab button does not count because grabs can be done by pressing the Attack button and Shield button simultaneously without the need of ever using the Grab button. Jumping can be done by tapping upward on the Control Stick (providing you don't turn Tap Jump off in your settings) as well. If I were to count any button other than those three, it would be the Jump button, if only because you can entirely prevent the use of Tap Jump, making it impossible to jump without said Jump button. Even so...

Every single move with every single character in the game can be done using those three buttons. Each character has different animations and properties and such on them but every moveset in Smash Bros. can be broken down like this:

Neutral standing Attack

Forward tilt Attack

Downward tilt Attack

Upward tilt Attack

Forward Smash Attack

Downward Smash Attack

Upward Smash Attack

Neutral jumping Attack

Forward jumping Attack

Backward jumping Attack

Downward jumping Attack

Neutral Special Attack

Smash Special Attack

Upward Special Attack

The way I broke it down it may seem like a lot, but when you compare it to even the most basic character in another competitive fighting game it's practically nothing, honestly. You also have to take into consideration that a lot of these other games that I'm mentioning in a very vague sense have numerous other system mechanics and things to make each character within said fighting game entirely unique in comparison to the other games. Things that Smash Bros. does not.

Using your 'entire moveset' in Smash Bros. is not the same as using your 'entire moveset' in any other fighting game. It's hardly even comparable and that's part of the reason most, if not all, comparisons of Smash Bros. (especially Brawl of all things) to other fighting games on the market seems so nonsensical and pointless to me.

I've seen debates like this countless times before and for the life of me I never really understand the Smash Bros. side at all. I get called out as being arrogant to the game and the competitive scene, yadda yadda. I know all about it. I used to be a part of it, for crying out loud. But I came to the realization through making my own comparisons that Smash Bros. is not a serious competitive fighting game.

It's a party game as far as I'm concerned. An incredibly fun party game, but a party game nonetheless.

Edited July 9, 2011 by Chooch

[Spooky Mulder]

Sonic:

-Im really doubting he will re-appear but if he does I strongly doubt he will get another character, but Knuckles would fit so well! At least they could add Shadow and Tails as assists.

I'd be shocked if Sonic doesn't reappear. He's a video game icon and his inclusion into Brawl was extremely hyped, plus Sonic is now actually part of an extremely successful Nintendo franchise, M&S@Olympics. Why would Nintendo leave him out?

I think the bigger question is, will Classic Sonic be playable in the next Smash Bros?

[DarkDefeater]

As an alternate skin, like Dark Link, I can see that happening. I don't seem him being a seperate character though.

[The drunkard from space!]

As an alternate skin, like Dark Link, I can see that happening. I don't seem him being a seperate character though.

[Diogenes]

Difference being that Sonic's a third party character. Unless they went absolutely nuts with third party characters, giving a spot to a slightly different version of Sonic would be a horrible waste.

[Phos]

No, your moveset matters more because you cannot land one hit on the opponent and carry them in large combos.

[dabbido]

But last time was very special, only two 3rd party characters got in. I think it might be a one-timer thing.......but since he was the most wanted and it instantly gets a lot of cash I guess they will just add him again.

[Facehugger]

>implying a common dictionary is written with fighting games in mind

Try harder.

[Chooch]

All your posts lead me to believe that you've never actually played any of these fighting games you call 'button-mashing affairs' because otherwise you wouldn't be calling them that.

Combos are a major component of any serious competitive fighting game. The fact that you're trying to use their existence as an excuse to justify Smash Bros.' joke of a metagame proves to me that you're entirely ignorant to them.

I suppose this isn't really a proper response to everything you said (I might do it tomorrow or something I dunno), but this is the gist of what I would say anyway. You just don't seem to understand how real fighting games work.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Chooch

[Facehugger]

All your posts lead me to believe that you've never actually played any of these fighting games you call 'button-mashing affairs' because otherwise you wouldn't be calling them that.

Do you not press a sequence of buttons in rapid successions to launch large combos in these fighting games? Because I believe that was one of the cornerstones of the arguments used against me. Admittedly, I was out-of-place and should have phrased my sentence differently with the inclusion of 'can'. However, my fighting game experience is limited, but aside from SSB, other games seemed to degenarate into button-mashing.

Combos are a major component of any serious competitive fighting game. The fact that you're trying to use their existence as an excuse to justify Smash Bros.' joke of a metagame proves to me that you're entirely ignorant to them.

Strawman. I'm not trying to use combos to justify any percieved notion of how serious and competitive Brawl is, I'm merely making the point that they are there.

I suppose this isn't really a proper response to everything you said (I might do it tomorrow or something I dunno),

Look forward to it.

You just don't seem to understand how real fighting games work.

No True Scotsman.

Really? You're going for that?

Edited July 11, 2011 by Facehugger

[Diogenes]

Do you not press a sequence of buttons in rapid successions to launch large combos in these fighting games? Because I believe that was one of the cornerstones of the arguments used against me. Admittedly, I was out-of-place and should have phrased my sentence differently with the inclusion of 'can'. However, my fighting game experience is limited, but aside from SSB, other games seemed to degenarate into button-mashing.

If you think traditional fighting games degenerate into button mashing, you don't know the first thing about them.

Seriously, I don't play any traditional fighters, but I've done some reading, and I can respect what's involved in high-level play. It's not button mashing, not by a long shot.

[Ekaje]

Super Smash Bros. Brawl is a

competitive game. Totally. Edited July 11, 2011 by Ekaje