New Smash Bros?

[DarkDefeater]

Heh. I would love to see what the people at Smash World Forums say about that video. However, when you have two really good players, (not cheap, as was just seen), it can be a compelling sight to see.

Personally, while I would like to attend a Brawl tournament, (never been to one), I see it more as a fun fighting game with optional party game elements than a truly competitive game.

Not a bad thing to me mind you; it's my fav. game in my entire collection.

Never really played melee or smash 64, but if the next game is more competitive, that's fine with me too. I'm fine either way.

[Ekaje]

The thing is, one of the players in the video, Mew2K, is considered one of the best Smash players currently and is that Meta Knight. He's also a weirdo but that's beside the point.

[DarkDefeater]

Really? If that is the case, then he's giving the entire game a bad name.

However, you could argue, that in Brawl competitive play, nothing is held back, not even being as cheap as possible.

Like I said though, pro play without being cheap, is great to see.

Another argument that can be made is that the only reason players play cheaply like that, is because the characters/game allow them to be. If Meta Knight was re-designed, I'd imagine things would be very different.

Heck, if Meta Knight were banned completly, I can only guess how much that would effect the Brawl competitive arena.

You know, Sakurai made a great game. But between Meta Knight and random tripping (more than once I've tripped into a forward smash. Once during a trip, I was caught in between two Ike's and their forward smashes. I kid you not.) Sakurai made some significant mistakes.

Here's hoping that such mistakes will eliminated or reduced in the next game.

[LunarEdge]

Super Smash Bros. Brawl is a

competitive game. Totally.

[Chooch]

If I remember correctly, Rainbow Cruise is a viable counter pick stage.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Chooch

[LunarEdge]

If I remember correctly, Rainbow Cruise is a viable counter pick stage.

*checks ze internet* you are correct sir

[DarkDefeater]

To be fair, I feel compelled to show this video, just to show that Brawl can be competitive. It's also to show that the stage, especially one like rainbow cruise can make all the difference.

BTW, same characters and players as the previous vid.

[Remy]

No True Scotsman.

Really? You're going for that?

You yourself admitted your experience with fighting hames is limited, this is hardly a No True Scotsman situation here because you clearly have no idea what you're talking about

Actually, it is entirely the same. Differences in quantity do not affect the sentiment. Utilising your entire moveset within any given game means entirely that, using all moves at your disposal, regardless of how little one possesses in comparison to another. I honestly don't see what you're going for here. The sentence doesn't change its meaning when applied to a different game.

Would it be a stretch to say that people using all the moves at their disposal in a game with 3-6 times more moves then brawl are using more moves, in more ways, and therefore playing a more complex game?

>implying that the literary definition of a word is not as important than a self-contrived term for a specific playerbase. I guess this boils down to semantics again, but I'd say the literary definition takes priority, and is what I was arguing with.

No actually, When you're talking about specific games in a specific context I think the specific term combo takes priority over the generic combo.

[Blacklightning]

>implying that the literary definition of a word is not as important than a self-contrived term for a specific playerbase.

It is when the former has absolutely no context in this argument, unlike the latter. When looking for a definition of a fighting game term it should go without saying that a term given by people in the fighting scene bears a lot more importance than a term given by people completely unrelated to it, and to claim it should be otherwise is really grasping at straws.

By literary definition, yes.

...lol, seriously? If we're to follow such a vauge, all-encompassing definition of the word "combo" and apply it to fighting games, every single fucking thing you can do in a game is a combo. Even jumping. Which is, y'know, not saying much. I'm honestly finding it difficult to believe you're genuinely this ignorant, because this statement alone pretty much defeated your own argument singlehandedly and I'm not sure you realize it.

I also don't see how that last part was relevant. I never stated, nor even implied that it was in any way innovative to spam the same move.

Your sarcasm detector is broken.

It's not meant to support my core argument per se, but merely to show that I know exactly what the word combo actually means.

As far as fighting games go, you don't. And frankly, relying on a dictionary for a fighting game term is like looking up Britannica for the symptoms of Final Fantasty ailments, so I don't really understand why you insist on relying on a definition that is completely irrelevant to the context of the genre that practically fucking spawned it.

Doesn't mean it's not possible. I'm not arguing what stimulus is required to pull of chains of attacks in brawl, merely that it is possible.

That's about as credible as saying it's possible to beat Sonic Unleashed without using the boost, or that it's possible to combo Fox's reflector into itself without external aid. If you took anyone else's argument into account here, you'd realize that "possibility" isn't the problem - "practicality" is. And the fact of the matter is, the general hitstun in Brawl is just far too low to actually allow for many practical combos, which combined with the overly responsive dodge mechanics just means that just about every imaginable combo is punishable mid-execution, completely defeating the actual definition of a combo in the first place. And hell, I'd be completely fine with it if it were as a result of knockback, but the fact that there are moves that don't have any significant knockback and realistically should be fast and responsive enough to land a few additional hits but can't is absolutely ridiculous.

If you're seriously going to ignore all that on the basis that combos in Brawl are in some way "possible" (and frankly, much of the time that's being extremely generous), then I don't know what to say.

The fact that your opponent can respond quicker to your moves, and is not so easily juggled into a combo forces you to rely on a larger array of moves instead of attempting a specific kind of attack which initiates a combo, thereby turning into more of a button-mashing affair.

It might, until you take into account that increasing knockback doesn't keep the same circumstances long enough to prosper in that kind of way. Juggling will only last as long as you can keep your timing up and keep pace with the enemy flying about the place - even good juggling/chasing combos in Melee don't generally last longer than 3 or so hits for this reason, and that's when you are using context-appropriate moves to compensate.

The ironic thing about your argument is that the lack of histun immediately voids large portions of Brawl's movesets at a time anyway because state resets rob players of any followup opportunity, which essentially means spamming smash attacks until the other guy doesn't come back. Or tilts, depending on the character (namely Snake and Zero Samus).

This facilitates the act of trying to utilise a wider pool of moves to try and one-up the opponent in any way you can, because it is harder to generate advantageous situations, hen when you have acess to large combo-moves.

"Hitting a guy repeatedly who can't hit back" isn't advantageous?

I'd also like to add for the record that nobody is suggesting more moves that hit multiple times, because that's the impression you seem to be giving off. Just that the existing moves be able to combo directly into each other where it's genuinely appropriate to be able to.

Wether or not something is percieved as worthwhile does not invalidate what it is.

It also does not invalidate the fact that it isn't worthwhile. The difference is that the fact that it isn't a practical tactic in a genre that it should be practical in is a genuine problem with Brawl, and that the literal definition of the word doesn't apply as much as you would hope it to.

I'm well aware of that, and as such I'd imagine that in such games people don't use attacks with high launch-back so that they can opt for moves which start lengthier combos instead, thereby complimenting what I said earlier about the pool of moves that much be utilised seems smaller compared to Brawl. That is most certainyl the impression this point gave at any rate.

I'll keep posting these until you make some attempt to refute them. Frankly, if actually allowing combo-ability is supposed to limit your options so drastically, I'm not seeing it.

inb4 "I suddenly want to play Melee again"

By literary definition, there are combos. That's all I'm trying to say.

Literal definiton means diddly fucking squat, especially if you're going to use it in such a way that it encompasses the near-entirety of fighting game mechanics. So unless you're going to argue that based on the genre's own terms, stop wasting everyone's time. Edited July 11, 2011 by Blacklightning

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

inb4 "I suddenly want to play Melee again"

Okay, seriously. How long did it take these people to be in sync so smoothly to be able to master that this way? I fucking feel like a noob watching this shit.

Brawl is definitely lacking in this department. Really, the only thing that makes me put it higher than Melee is the characters. But the next Smash Bros, needs to be allow me to do this shit right here.

[Ekaje]

Well, part of it is that that video is tool-assisted, but Melee does have more depth than Brawl. But since Sakurai went out of his way to make Brawl less competitive, SSB4 will probably continue down the same route. So if you want a competitive SSB4, chances are you'll have to hope that Nintendo doesn't learn how to give their consoles proper security.

[Johnny Boy]

But last time was very special, only two 3rd party characters got in. I think it might be a one-timer thing.......but since he was the most wanted and it instantly gets a lot of cash I guess they will just add him again.

Oh trust me sonic will be back. It's Snake I'm having doubts about returning.

[-Robin-]

Wait that was a tournament? That was extremely boring to watch lol

Gotta understand that this was a national tournament with a looot of money on the line. Would you risk some damage or a stock loss, which could cost you the match, when there was an alternate method you can use to keep you safe and potentially win you some cash?

M2K is infamous for employing this strategy of his, lol. If he loses the first game of a set, he automatically goes to Rainbow Cruise and stays away for 8 minutes in order to get composure and understand his opponent's habits so he can get better prepared for the third game. Polarizing strategy, but he gets results by doing that.

also, aren't most moving stages banned from tournament play?

Rainbow Cruise is set on a predictable moving path; there are no changes whatsoever to the stage layout no matter how many cycles the stage goes through. Since there are no random effects on the stage that can stop competitive play or can determine the outcome of a match in an unfair way, Rainbow Cruise remains legal despite it being a moving stage.

[LunarEdge]

Well, part of it is that that video is tool-assisted, but Melee does have more depth than Brawl. But since Sakurai went out of his way to make Brawl less competitive, SSB4 will probably continue down the same route. So if you want a competitive SSB4, chances are you'll have to hope that Nintendo doesn't learn how to give their consoles proper security.

If Nintendo is serious and is trying to appeal more to the hardcore gamer, not just the casual like the Wii, SSB4 better have more depth and play more like Melee if you ask me. If you don't want a competitive smash game go back to brawl.

[Ekaje]

If they wanted to make it competitive, why would they bring back the guy who stated that he purposely made it more of a party game and if he could, would make it so there was no winner. I personally don't care whether or not they make the next Smash more competitive, I played Melee like a party game with people for fun, and did the same for Brawl.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Ekaje

[Chooch]

Look forward to it.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Chooch

[LunarEdge]

Gotta understand that this was a national tournament with a looot of money on the line. Would you risk some damage or a stock loss, which could cost you the match, when there was an alternate method you can use to keep you safe and potentially win you some cash?

M2K is infamous for employing this strategy of his, lol. If he loses the first game of a set, he automatically goes to Rainbow Cruise and stays away for 8 minutes in order to get composure and understand his opponent's habits so he can get better prepared for the third game. Polarizing strategy, but he gets results by doing that.

Rainbow Cruise is set on a predictable moving path; there are no changes whatsoever to the stage layout no matter how many cycles the stage goes through. Since there are no random effects on the stage that can stop competitive play or can determine the outcome of a match in an unfair way, Rainbow Cruise remains legal despite it being a moving stage.

[Ekaje]

I find it funny that that sort of strategy is legal considering there's a rule against stalling.

Speaking of the rules, they only prove how bad of an idea it is to play Brawl competitively, from a ledge grab limit, to rules having to deal with the fact that higher priority is given to higher controller ports.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Ekaje

[-Robin-]

Can't figure out how to multiquote on this forum, so I'll just namedrop.

LunarEdge: While hanging on the edge and hovering offstage can be seen as a risk, Meta Knight has 5 jumps, a horrifically large and fast Up Air hitbox, and 4 recovery moves + a glide that he can use get himself back on the ledge or the stage, in a safe manner. He can play the edge really well, and if any character, especially Olimar, even attempts to go after him and fight him, chances are that that player will get hit by one of MK's moves, and then be suspect himself to being edgeguarded and killed by Meta Knight's gimping game, which is what Meta Knight wants. It's a big win-win situation for Meta Knight.

Ekaje: First you have to define what "stalling" really means. Sonic could spend all match running away from Lucario until he can find an opening, because if he even attempts to approach him, Lucario can snuff that approach out with an Forward Air. Is Sonic stalling the match by purposely avoiding conflict? No, he's just waiting until an opportunity presents itself for Sonic to take advantage of. Is Fox stalling a match by prurposely going to the other side of the stage and shooting lasers? Not really, he's still tacking on damage with Lasers, it's just a weakness of the opponent that he cant catch up to Fox to make him stop. The only iron-clad technique that can be considered stalling is chaingrabbing someone on a permanent wall, or chaingrabbing far beyond 300%, which at that percentage anyone is going to die to a move anyway. Anything else falls into the realm of subjectivity.

The Ledge Grab Limit exists because of Meta Knight. It has been proven, by frame data, that if Meta Knight falls off the ledge, fastfalls and uses Up air, jumps, uses Up air again, and grabs the ledge again, Meta Knight can stay on that ledge, completely invincible thanks to ledge invincibility, and remain completely safe from attack. If MK players eventually get the timing down to employ this, then MK completely breaks the competitive nature of the game, as it then boils down to getting the first hit of the match. Ledge Grab limits were imposed to stop him from doing that.

Also, I believe that port priority existed in Melee, so it's not a feature unique to Brawl.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Razor Wind

[Ekaje]

Yes, I know there's a purpose to that rule, I'm pointing out the fact that the rule is necessary shows that Brawl isn't very good as a serious competitive game. I don't know much about fighters, do other games have rules that say you can't do X outside of game freezing glitches?

Not really? Not as far as I know anyway. I mean, certain characters are banned in some games, but even infinites in Marvel 2 and the DHC glitch in Marvel vs. Capcom 3 is entirely viable.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Ekaje

[Chooch]

The ledge grab limit is like 50 tho' which at the end of the day is still plenty to stall for as long as possible given certain stages and against certain characters.

That's part of the reason that Mew2King vs. Brood match was so hilariously bad. Mew2King lost the second match so he was allowed to pick Rainbow Cruise since it's a viable counterpick stage. Rainbow Cruise is a really hard stage for Olimar because he can't use his recovery move to grab on the vast majority of the ledges. Then Mew2King proceeds stall as much as possible and wins by timeout. Hilarious.

I suppose in the end it's all good because Brood beat him in losers finals and forced him into third place. I know he had to be upset about that.

I don't know much about fighters, do other games have rules that say you can't do X outside of game freezing glitches?

Edited July 11, 2011 by Chooch

[-Robin-]

Ekaje: Melee had a rule at one point that banned Wobbling, a stalling tactic that the Ice Climbers could use. Seems like that rule has since been removed on the standard ruleset, but some TOs still specifically ban that tactic due to preference.

The LGL issue is shaky, as Meta Knight is not the only one that can use the ledge as a huge advantage:

Is LGL that big an issue to impose a rule? Does Olimar just simply suck at fighting ledge-play? Hard to tell.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Razor Wind

[Chooch]

It's especially bad for Olimar because he can't really risk being off of the stage because of his relatively poor recovery move. If he tries to retaliate he'll have to move off of the stage and that sets up for gimps, something he's very vulnerable to.

[-Robin-]

And it's that character trait of Olimar's that can support M2K for playing the way he did on RC.

If Olimar tries to fight MK on the ledge of the ship, he's going to die. MK and Olimar both start at 0%, so MK has no reason to approach Olimat at that point. Once the ship section is over, Olimar has to survive a minute of ledgeless platforms against the best gimper in the game. The last section, MK can simply avoid Olimar because he'll likely have the lead, so Olimar is forced to approach him or try to throw Pikmin at him. Rinse and repeat for 3 more cycles.

If anything, blame Brood for not banning Rainbow Cruise, even if he'll have to suffer Meta Knight on the inevitable Brinstar counterpick.

Anyway, new Smash Bros. game. Hype. I don't know about any character cuts, but I'd like to see Paper Mario in Smash 4 as a fighter, since Paper Mario is the most recognizable character of a Mario spinoff at the moment.

I'd also like to see Anthony Higgs too, but that's just sheer bias on my part.

[Chooch]

Brood is Japanese, and it was mentioned multiple times that Japanese players aren't used to playing on as many stages. You could easily equate it to his lack of familiarity with the American Smash Bros. rule set.

The rule sets for competitive Smash seem so needlessly complicated at first, but then you realize that a without a lot of said rules put in place the game is a total joke competitively. It's really awkward.

The main character that I'm looking to be added in the next Smash Bros. realistically is Bowser Jr. still. Complete with his paintbrush.

Edited July 11, 2011 by Chooch