Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[Ryannumber1gamer]

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A straw man is to create a diversionary false argument for you to argue, I boiled down what kind of was a lot of useless sentences to " he's just jelous evil sonic" , he isn't that complicated. Its called being succinct 

Which is what you did. You took my points, and tried to alter them in an attempt to make it look like my point was supporting yours. Trying to push Scourge's backstory into barebones "jealous" is a strawman argument where you attempt to make it look like I'm turning jealous into a deep backstory, when his backstory is much more than just simple jealousy. 

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Again strawman used incoorectly. 

Also batman's backstory is super simple, he was rich, parents got shot, now he revenges them with his rich boy crime fighting , done. If you wanna go a bit deeper, he trained in the mountains, but yeah, outside of that he's a simple character. Dude was created in like the 30's of course he is , you can totally just break down his back story into something that simple. Its a benefit, to his appeal, his backstory is simple and understandable and works on a basic level. Like scourge, I like scourge and I like batman, they are both super simple. Batman's complexities lie when folks just try psychologically analyze him in whatever modern day they put him in 

As much as a meme as 

" DARKNESS, NO PARENT'S" 

is... that's his character.  And it works , like how scourge being evil sonic.... works. Just on a metal level as well. e

You set up the strawman by ignoring all of what I said defines Scourge's backstory and motivation as just jealousy so you can knock it down. That's called strawmanning. 

Batman's backstory isn't that either. Bruce Wayne's parents got murdered right in front of Bruce's eyes. It destroyed him. Broke him. His entire motivation is to ensure that no one ever gets away with doing that again. He fights to ensure no parents are gunned down in such a needless, worthless, and cruel way again, especially in front of their children. If you want to go deeper, you can also go into why he refuses to use any weapons of any kind to stop criminals. Any character can be simplified in any way to make it look like they're one dimensional and bland. Like so:

Harry Potter: Parents Died, Chosen One

Solid Snake: Angry retired dying clone

Raiden: Angry Robo Ninja

Ethan Mars: Bad Luck Father

Luke Skywalker: Chosen One Farm Boy

Darth Vader: Angry villain

Vegeta: Angry Prideful Asshole

You can do this to any character and make it look like they're one dimensional bores. So it is a case of you strawmanning again. By removing all of a characters' personality, background, and motives, and trying to take them down to simplified terms. Anyone can do it to any character.

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That didn't particularly serve to differentiate him at all. While no one actually goes into say sonic's mind to suggest he has an actual inferiority complex... you could argue that. But that would get into a whole slew of hypothetical, as far as being attention seeking and a show off. So is sonic, yeah sonic' is a bit more layed back than he is when put next to immediate competition he has to make fun of it, he has to joke about the person show's he's the best. A good example of this is his interactions with shadow in the comic, even during an event he was trying to poke fun at a him, but the reason he is is because he know's shadow can just do shit can't do... so he makes fun of him. Makes him feel like he's better... when he know's the immediate competition can literally do stuff he can't do. He's a show off. To be quite honest... that's probably the signs of an inferiority complex in itself... and to be quite honest that would be quite interesting to explore in a comic, but again hypothetical. 

But yeah sonic is a bit of a show off... you said yourself he  is sonic personality but taken to villainous extremes... in the first line. Which just makes him... well evil sonic. To paraphrase persona 4, he's the true self... the shadow.  That last bit isn't to suggest he's somehow shadow, that's what they call the evil versions of the characters in persona 4. 

So yeah , not to be rude, but when you are trying to argue something don't provide the other person's argument in the first sentence. 

And considering we're discussing Archie Sonic, we'll go by Archie Sonic, in which there's more evidence to support that Sonic doesn't boast and showoff because of an inferiority complex. He's does it to give himself an advantage. Eggman Empire, and several other arcs showed that as soon as Sonic wasn't the one dishing out the insults and wisecracks, he ended up getting destroyed because of it. There's evidence to support it's like Spider-Man. He makes wisecracks in an attempt to keep himself calm and balanced, and to throw his enemies off balance. Something issue 200 showed exactly by having Sonic finally regain his confidence against Eggman's insults, and throwing them directly back into his face, causing Eggman to go off balance, and get his ass kicked. As for Shadow, Sonic considers Shadow on the same level as Knuckles. He's a friendly rival, and like his friends, he jokes with them. It's not a one handed thing either, because other characters have done it to Sonic as well. Just recently, we had Knuckles openly mock Sonic's werehog form for example.

I didn't say that either. I said it was Sonic's bad aspects raised to max, toppled with his own aspects. Not to be rude, but stop trying to take arguments and alter them in an attempt to make yourself sound correct.

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I'm gonna be real with you that's kind of what that motivation boils down to. 

Have you just been ignoring everything I said? While his goal is to become king of his planet, that isn't his motivation, and that's literally shown in the first page of his main story arc. Like seriously. Here, I'll provide the evidence that you want so much. Here you go. Directly from the Sonic wikia itself.

Spoiler

Source: http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/sonic/images/6/68/Scourge-lockdownpage1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140308114812

There's your evidence. Or if you want to go further into TL;DR territory:

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I used to be a nobody, no worse, a knock off. A evil Sonic on an Evil Mobius. Then with a little power boost from the master emerald, I became a somebody, a real *Scourge*.

That opening literally summed up his main motivation. To prove to himself and to others than he is somebody. That he is a powerful creature. There's his inferiority complex right there. When you go further into other arcs like Bold New Moebus that dives into his backstory more, we see why he has this complex, and why he's desperately trying to ensure the world knows who he is and he stands out. His entire backstory in a story showed Scourge being ignored, unloved, and hidden in the background of Jules' glory. That's reinforces his motivations.

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Yes, and he became a living meme. Ethan and hila would be proud. 

Also wasn't arguing that he didn't change, in fact him becoming a meme was in my argument.... so ok thanks, I guess?

 Except I haven't seen a meme based entirely around Scourge. And you've provided no evidence to prove that point, making said point unfounded. Considering Evil Sonic was despised up until Ian got his hands on the character, and turned him into Scourge, where he developed, and changed to the point he became the comic's most popular character outside of SEGA cast. (And yes, I have evidence to back this up as well. Ian has said multiple times that Freedom Fighter universe arcs weren't happening because SEGA don't believe they're able to uphold a story and get sales. Scourge was an exception because both Archie and SEGA took notice to how popular he became between #160-#200). '*SARCASM* Some meme he became right? *SARCASM*

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She's an example... its called an example, its a device used an argument. To show a situation similar to the one at hand to make comparisons , and to to convince you to see it how I am seeing. 

It's an example.

Except she isn't, because she doesn't share any of the same personality traits as Sonic/Scourge, and the story you're complaining about is one of the fan favourite X-Men stories to date. Stop talking to me like I'm an idiot as well. It doesn't help your argument by pretending the other person doesn't know what an example is. Jean Gray is a completely different situation. She's a character that was turned evil due to the Phoenix Force that was the same character with screwed morals. Sonic and Scourge are different characters, have different backstories, different motives, different personality traits, and are all around different, so your "example" falls flat on it's face.

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Actually him deciding not interact with a person, would actually be actual character development for sonic actually, sonic is a guy who never really gives up on someone, even eggman, this demonstrated when eggman went nuts and he was the sole person feeling sorry for the guy. 

Except it wouldn't. It would drag both the story, and the development down if he moped around for issues and issues hating Sally. It's development to move past it despite how awkward it is for the better of everyone else.

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If they actually went into that on some type of deep emotional level I would agree with you but that was the comic returning to homeostasis so two of its main characters that are featured most of the time aren't pissed at each other for a reason folks need to read back for. If knuckles is pissed at sonic, that's Tuesday, you can infer whatever you want, sonic dropped his toast or some shit. But with character's who aren't in that category if you want to keep the ff a thing you need to eventual restart the episode, and return the relationships to point zero. 

The actually challenging thought provoking character changing version of that, is when tails fought sonic. That is a thing that never happens, and was completely unique and was the shinning light of brilliance in an otherwise abysmal arc, showing actual character growth. But Sonic saying i'm sorry? Sonic always does that he's sonic he's milktoast. 

But sonic say going off on her for say one of the billlions times she messed up and choosing to just not associate with her. That would have been an actually evolution of character " Oh wow sonic has a proverbial breaking point, Oh my wow this actually adds something to his character. And he isn't this all forgiving saint like person with no defining qualities besides i'm coo and blue. " 

On the reverse of that, its like when shadow was fighting knuckles, and in the 4th quater during that fight he started giving knuckles life advice like he was sagat, like " wow that was mature of you shadow, usually you are silent and about your duty but you respect your opponent enough to try and help him " 

Except they did go into it on an emotional level. Their relationship started when they were kids, and Sonic was fighting in a war. They rushed into it, and ended up getting pissed off, and ended it when a second war was beginning. Sally herself admits that she wasn't emotionally stable during the time, and regrets what occured in #134. There's at least one arc about Sonic coming to grips with the ordeal as well. After that, the two develop in terms of emotional stability, to the point where when they do start their relationship again, it's under normal circumstances, the two don't rush into it, and it doesn't go melodramatic. To put it simply, they grew enough to start a healthier and overall more stable relationship. The first time, they just kissed, and suddenly, couple! Here, they waited, took it slow, and did a first date to see if they could handle a relationship. That displays growth in both of their characters emotionally.

As for that forgiving point, that would weaken his character further. Like seriously, it takes a strong character to be able to allow a second chance for characters. I mean this was the only actual fight Sonic/Sally had to that point, so I don't see why it'd be "unforgiveable".  As for Sonic fighting Tails, it really isn't that good a story concept. It has technically been done in the games (We've seen it in Sonic Pinball Party) and even then, it wasn't as interesting because the fucked up the motivators for Tails fighting Sonic. 

And what advice did Shadow have? Because if I remember correctly, Shadow/Knuckles were fighting each other the entire time until Rouge stepped in and told them to quit being idiots. Rouge gave more advice than Shadow, telling Knux has shouldn't be living his life alone on a rock protecting a relic of the past. Before you step in and say "Oh well you're backing my point again", you're wrong. The games and comics alike had Rouge giving Knux advice, so it isn't a new concept. 

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It made sonic think for two seconds, it didn't really get to last long enough to do that, but It had the potential to, so i'll give you that. Though I would argue it did more for amy and tails than it did for sonic. 

Except it had four issues dedicated to break Sonic down to size before he hit the despair event horizon, so it wasn't just "sonic thinks for two seconds". Or shall I bring up the parts where he snapped at Silver and almost kicked his ass during the arc because of all the stress he's gone through? As in something we haven't seen Sonic do to one of his friends?

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Those motivations, at least my view still boiled down to I want to cause trouble. He has no nobile motivations, he just wants to prove himself, as a bad guy. Which... would be just causing large scale trouble. 

How do you boil down motivations of proving yourself of worth, ensuring you aren't forgotten, and everything else I described as "i cause trouble for no reason". I never said he had noble motivations. I said he had unique motivations that we haven't seen from a Sonic villain in the comics. But that's another example of ignoring all I've said in an attempt to strawman your own point again (Which again you are by ignoring my detailed explanations in an attempt to boil them down to simple terms for you to knock over).

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...He was literally blue sonic, than he turned into green sonic. 

Again, you're attempting to boil it down to simplified points. I can also say Amy is Pink Sonic, Shadow is Dark Sonic, Silver is Silver Sonic, and more. It's not true because each character has different design elements added to them to make them stand out, exactly like Scourge. But going by your logic alone, we should instead just say that all of those characters, Amy, Shadow, and Silver are Sonic recoloured. Doesn't matter about their unique designs elements, because they're just a hedgehog turned into this colour.

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There's " these characters look like they are from the same world" and " I recolored a character who was literally an evil version of that character" 

He is an edgy recolor... he is literally an edgy recolor, he  is green sonic with shades and a jacket. He is a living meme.

Going by your logic, it doesn't matter which would they came from. Using your logic that these design elements doesn't matter, Shadow is Sonic recoloured with red colour added and similar spines to Super Sonic. Silver is Silver Sonic with hair on his chest, and blue rings on his hands, and Amy is Pink Sonic with dress/hairband. It doesn't go both ways. It's one or the other. You can't have it both ways in an attempt to give your argument a bit more credit. 

And calling it a meme over and over isn't going to make it true.

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There aren't enough elements to do that, because If I take off his jacket and shades, he's green sonic. Which they do, when he goes to jail. Showing how basic he actually is. 

Shadow:

• Different eye colour
• Black and Red
• Super Sonic Spines
• Different glove/shoe design

Amy:

• Dress
• Tails/Knuckles hair
• Different shoes
• Pink

Silver:

• Different Spine design
• Silver
• Hair on chest
• Blue rings on hands
• different shoes/gloves
• Different eye colour

Scourge: 

• Jacket
• Slashes on stomach
• Shades
• Green
• Blue eyes
• Completely different shoes
• Completely different teeth

You were saying?

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Yes because he's green sonic who is evil. That is who is , he is an alternate dimension sonic who was recolored for us, live in comic. We got to see the photoshop work in action!

1. You missed the point completely. I asked if next you were gonna compare recolour OCs to actual OCs with effort placed into their design. And if you say yes, then you really don't have an idea about the Sonic community when there's tons of OCs out there with actual time and effort placed into the design.

2.Already went over your claims that there wasn't enough to change Scourge, making your claim that Shadow/Amy/Silver is different. So go ahead, choose. Either they're all lazy, or they all aren't. You can't have it go both ways to suit your point when you keep contradicting yourself.

3. Repeating yourself doesn't make you right!

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If he had physically unique elements that were actually... prominent then yes he would be unique. However the only unique thing he has is a scar , everything else is clothing, but if you remove that , he is sonic but green. 

Shadow who I guess you are alluding to in that example, actually has elements of strictly unique to him define his design and make him a unique character. So yes, actually adding unique elements that are physically unique and defining  different are much different than changing one color. 

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Shadow:

• Different eye colour
• Black and Red
• Super Sonic Spines
• Different glove/shoe design

Amy:

• Dress
• Tails/Knuckles hair
• Different shoes
• Pink

Silver:

• Different Spine design
• Silver
• Hair on chest
• Blue rings on hands
• different shoes/gloves
• Different eye colour

Scourge: 

• Jacket
• Slashes on stomach
• Shades
• Green
• Blue eyes
• Completely different shoes
• Completely different teeth

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The things you showed, require jewels, and that was it. 

It scourge dredged up an irrelevant thing that previously was only relevant to explain the greenness in sonic's eyes, to just absorb energy in his body and make himself green, and then subsequently effecting his superform.

I'm going to stop that rant there 

This is once again where your lack of evidence screws you over. Considering you just absolutely destroyed one of your main points without my help. Looks like there's a bit of irony, considering how many times you claimed I stated your argument for you. Here you go, more evidence directly from the comic. 

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Anarchy Beryl:

An Anarchy Beryl is a Moebius equivalent of a Chaos Emeralds in Mobius. Several of the gemstones were used to maintain the atmosphere and environment of the Sunken Island, guarded by Anti Knuckles. According to himself, Scourge the Hedgehog's throne was "stocked with Anarchy Beryl", which he used to transform into Super Scourge in order to combat the combined threat of Sonic the Hedgehog, Amy Rose, Shadow the Hedgehog, Silver the Hedgehog, Rob O' the Hedge, Metal Sonic and Rosy the Rascal. (StH: #44, #195)

Unlike the Mobius Prime counterparts, Anarchy Beryl provide a longer lasting super transformation and a bit more power. However, the downside is that they drain the power of the individual once their super transformation runs out, leaving them vulnerable. This was the case with Super Scourge, who was drained of his power once he de-transformed and became defenseless against Sonic, who proceeded to capture him. (StH: #196)

Source: http://archiesonic.wikia.com/wiki/Anarchy_Beryl

As for what turned Sonic's eyes green, that's completely irrelevant as it wasn't the same thing that occured to Scourge.

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He wants to be the best villian, so he can cause fuckery.

 You just said fancy words for fuckery... actually. What do you think the type of villian he wanted to be is? Why do you think he out of everyone got that joker quote... maybe that's called making a parallel.  He has no nobile cause, he just wants to show himself as a threat, which would be to do the thing opposite to sonic, which is to cause trouble. He is not lord genome, where he had a secret good guy intention all along, he just wants to ruin lives to show them he's cool. Sonic want's to say lives because he's feels its right he think its cool. Being cool is as simple as it is the primary motivating factors for these two characters, he'll it's the subtitle of the comic or was. 

Would this be the fifth or sixth time you've ignored my explanation about your "fuckery" claim being bullshit? And no, I didn't use "fancy words for fuckery". That's once again your attempt to attempt to alter my original argument to suit your point, something that's failing. All of this is already disproven by the fucking fact I've already showed evidence that points out directly what Scourge's motivation is. I never said it was noble, but it isn't something as lazy as "fuckery, and to be cool", especially when the comic itself has already given multiple pieces of proof that completely disproves your point, and yet you still decide to ignore it all just to keep going on that you're correct despite displaying absolutely fuck all to even prove your point, while I've given plenty of evidence that outright disproves your points.

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Actually that's a common parallel, and in the owl man universe Red hood joker is a good guy. 

So yes, and he's green. And purple. 

That's drawing it down to simple comparisons, seeing as you are referring to the Earth 2, where every hero is a good guy, and every villain is a bad guy, without ample explanation of why that is. When we see the hero version of Joker, he's usually there for a minute before he's killed off, such as Crisis on Two Earths for example. A better way to have put it is if Joker became the actual Batman if he didn't have the extremely crappy day he had, as it's very possible had he not done what he did in The Killing Joke, he'd still just be a lousy two-bit comedian who constantly fails in life. That parallel doesn't work.

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.....Did you just ... admit i'm right, and use that as an argument?

No actually, that would be another example of irony, because what I said disproved your point completely. You claimed Sonic is displayed as some kind of saint. And since I know you'll attempt to claim "no i didn't say that", I'll even quote it.

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 Oh my wow this actually adds something to his character. And he isn't this all forgiving saint like person with no defining qualities besides i'm coo and blue. " 

Well look at that, a character telling Sonic he isn't some "all forgiving saint like person" by telling him he's isn't above everyone morally, that like Eggman or Naugus, or Scourge, all it would take is everything to go wrong for Sonic. For his life to go down the shitter, until he could possibly turn evil. That doesn't mean he'd be the same character as Eggman, or Naugus, or Scourge, but Sonic morally isn't as upright as he wants to believe he is. Once again, you're ignoring the entire point to strawman yourself again. Once again, it failed.

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No he is, or was because no canon, but in that quote you just used, he's very much strait up admitting he's sonic when shit hit the fan. You quoted it, you qouted it and it literally works against your entire argument. 

Except it doesn't work against my argument, that's just you trying to claim it once again in an attempt to look right without actually providing evidence. How about you start actually reading my points and coming up with a sound argument for it all instead of strawmanning a point by taking something out of context and attempting to make it work for your argument. I never said he's "straight up admitting he's sonic". If you're gonna try that bullshit, you might as well claim I'm saying "hes straight up eggman when shit hit the fan". Support your damn argument instead of attempting to pick any kind of out of context point to help you.

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If you are gonna keep providing my argument for me, please, by all means, go nuts.

Odd, considering I just went over why your argument is bullshit again. But I'm sure you'll just comment again by trying to take out of context statements and strawman an argument for yourself. 

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I did , I gave you examples, you didn't listen and then you proceeded to provide examples for me, like up above and try to use them as an argument. I'm trying throw you a bone but you keep trowing them back dude 

Actually you didn't. You gave irrelevant examples while I gave actual proof. Again, you're trying make me sound like an idiot by claiming "you threw me bones" when the reality is you didn't provide shit all evidence to actually support your point (No, random comic characters not even in the same situation as Sonic/Scourge doesn't count as evidence), and then took my points out of context in an attempt to make yourself sound right, only for me to once again go and explain why your argument isn't sound, and doesn't work.

[FriendBot]

Mega Drive is an entirely new story with original locations, sure it has a simple plot but as I said before, Tyson's art and Flynn's dialogue made that issue a lot more enjoyable to read. 

As for what to expect from Next Level, it's obvious that Metal is going to appear in it and be a badass as usual but yeah considered this series takes place after the classic games but before 4, maybe Ian will put his own spin on how Episode Metal happened.

But I'll expect the same thing last issue, Sonic and crew goes to a new zone, talk about their surroundings and make some jokes, fight Eggman ( and Metal, I guess ) and get the Ancient Gear for that zone. Maybe Ian will change things up a bit but I don't know 

[Sparky]

44 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Which is what you did. You took my points, and tried to alter them in an attempt to make it look like my point was supporting yours. Trying to push Scourge's backstory into barebones "jealous" is a strawman argument where you attempt to make it look like I'm turning jealous into a deep backstory, when his backstory is much more than just simple jealousy. 

You set up the strawman by ignoring all of what I said defines Scourge's backstory and motivation as just jealousy so you can knock it down. That's called strawmanning. 

Batman's backstory isn't that either. Bruce Wayne's parents got murdered right in front of Bruce's eyes. It destroyed him. Broke him. His entire motivation is to ensure that no one ever gets away with doing that again. He fights to ensure no parents are gunned down in such a needless, worthless, and cruel way again, especially in front of their children. If you want to go deeper, you can also go into why he refuses to use any weapons of any kind to stop criminals. Any character can be simplified in any way to make it look like they're one dimensional and bland. Like so:

Harry Potter: Parents Died, Chosen One

Solid Snake: Angry retired dying clone

Raiden: Angry Robo Ninja

Ethan Mars: Bad Luck Father

Luke Skywalker: Chosen One Farm Boy

Darth Vader: Angry villain

Vegeta: Angry Prideful Asshole

You can do this to any character and make it look like they're one dimensional bores. So it is a case of you strawmanning again. By removing all of a characters' personality, background, and motives, and trying to take them down to simplified terms. Anyone can do it to any character.

And considering we're discussing Archie Sonic, we'll go by Archie Sonic, in which there's more evidence to support that Sonic doesn't boast and showoff because of an inferiority complex. He's does it to give himself an advantage. Eggman Empire, and several other arcs showed that as soon as Sonic wasn't the one dishing out the insults and wisecracks, he ended up getting destroyed because of it. There's evidence to support it's like Spider-Man. He makes wisecracks in an attempt to keep himself calm and balanced, and to throw his enemies off balance. Something issue 200 showed exactly by having Sonic finally regain his confidence against Eggman's insults, and throwing them directly back into his face, causing Eggman to go off balance, and get his ass kicked. As for Shadow, Sonic considers Shadow on the same level as Knuckles. He's a friendly rival, and like his friends, he jokes with them. It's not a one handed thing either, because other characters have done it to Sonic as well. Just recently, we had Knuckles openly mock Sonic's werehog form for example.

I didn't say that either. I said it was Sonic's bad aspects raised to max, toppled with his own aspects. Not to be rude, but stop trying to take arguments and alter them in an attempt to make yourself sound correct.

Have you just been ignoring everything I said? While his goal is to become king of his planet, that isn't his motivation, and that's literally shown in the first page of his main story arc. Like seriously. Here, I'll provide the evidence that you want so much. Here you go. Directly from the Sonic wikia itself.

  Reveal hidden contents

Source: http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/sonic/images/6/68/Scourge-lockdownpage1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20140308114812

There's your evidence. Or if you want to go further into TL;DR territory:

That opening literally summed up his main motivation. To prove to himself and to others than he is somebody. That he is a powerful creature. There's his inferiority complex right there. When you go further into other arcs like Bold New Moebus that dives into his backstory more, we see why he has this complex, and why he's desperately trying to ensure the world knows who he is and he stands out. His entire backstory in a story showed Scourge being ignored, unloved, and hidden in the background of Jules' glory. That's reinforces his motivations.

 Except I haven't seen a meme based entirely around Scourge. And you've provided no evidence to prove that point, making said point unfounded. Considering Evil Sonic was despised up until Ian got his hands on the character, and turned him into Scourge, where he developed, and changed to the point he became the comic's most popular character outside of SEGA cast. (And yes, I have evidence to back this up as well. Ian has said multiple times that Freedom Fighter universe arcs weren't happening because SEGA don't believe they're able to uphold a story and get sales. Scourge was an exception because both Archie and SEGA took notice to how popular he became between #160-#200). '*SARCASM* Some meme he became right? *SARCASM*

Except she isn't, because she doesn't share any of the same personality traits as Sonic/Scourge, and the story you're complaining about is one of the fan favourite X-Men stories to date. Stop talking to me like I'm an idiot as well. It doesn't help your argument by pretending the other person doesn't know what an example is. Jean Gray is a completely different situation. She's a character that was turned evil due to the Phoenix Force that was the same character with screwed morals. Sonic and Scourge are different characters, have different backstories, different motives, different personality traits, and are all around different, so your "example" falls flat on it's face.

Except it wouldn't. It would drag both the story, and the development down if he moped around for issues and issues hating Sally. It's development to move past it despite how awkward it is for the better of everyone else.

Except they did go into it on an emotional level. Their relationship started when they were kids, and Sonic was fighting in a war. They rushed into it, and ended up getting pissed off, and ended it when a second war was beginning. Sally herself admits that she wasn't emotionally stable during the time, and regrets what occured in #134. There's at least one arc about Sonic coming to grips with the ordeal as well. After that, the two develop in terms of emotional stability, to the point where when they do start their relationship again, it's under normal circumstances, the two don't rush into it, and it doesn't go melodramatic. To put it simply, they grew enough to start a healthier and overall more stable relationship. The first time, they just kissed, and suddenly, couple! Here, they waited, took it slow, and did a first date to see if they could handle a relationship. That displays growth in both of their characters emotionally.

As for that forgiving point, that would weaken his character further. Like seriously, it takes a strong character to be able to allow a second chance for characters. I mean this was the only actual fight Sonic/Sally had to that point, so I don't see why it'd be "unforgiveable".  As for Sonic fighting Tails, it really isn't that good a story concept. It has technically been done in the games (We've seen it in Sonic Pinball Party) and even then, it wasn't as interesting because the fucked up the motivators for Tails fighting Sonic. 

And what advice did Shadow have? Because if I remember correctly, Shadow/Knuckles were fighting each other the entire time until Rouge stepped in and told them to quit being idiots. Rouge gave more advice than Shadow, telling Knux has shouldn't be living his life alone on a rock protecting a relic of the past. Before you step in and say "Oh well you're backing my point again", you're wrong. The games and comics alike had Rouge giving Knux advice, so it isn't a new concept. 

Except it had four issues dedicated to break Sonic down to size before he hit the despair event horizon, so it wasn't just "sonic thinks for two seconds". Or shall I bring up the parts where he snapped at Silver and almost kicked his ass during the arc because of all the stress he's gone through? As in something we haven't seen Sonic do to one of his friends?

How do you boil down motivations of proving yourself of worth, ensuring you aren't forgotten, and everything else I described as "i cause trouble for no reason". I never said he had noble motivations. I said he had unique motivations that we haven't seen from a Sonic villain in the comics. But that's another example of ignoring all I've said in an attempt to strawman your own point again (Which again you are by ignoring my detailed explanations in an attempt to boil them down to simple terms for you to knock over).

Again, you're attempting to boil it down to simplified points. I can also say Amy is Pink Sonic, Shadow is Dark Sonic, Silver is Silver Sonic, and more. It's not true because each character has different design elements added to them to make them stand out, exactly like Scourge. But going by your logic alone, we should instead just say that all of those characters, Amy, Shadow, and Silver are Sonic recoloured. Doesn't matter about their unique designs elements, because they're just a hedgehog turned into this colour.

Going by your logic, it doesn't matter which would they came from. Using your logic that these design elements doesn't matter, Shadow is Sonic recoloured with red colour added and similar spines to Super Sonic. Silver is Silver Sonic with hair on his chest, and blue rings on his hands, and Amy is Pink Sonic with dress/hairband. It doesn't go both ways. It's one or the other. You can't have it both ways in an attempt to give your argument a bit more credit. 

And calling it a meme over and over isn't going to make it true.

Shadow:

• Different eye colour
• Black and Red
• Super Sonic Spines
• Different glove/shoe design

Amy:

• Dress
• Tails/Knuckles hair
• Different shoes
• Pink

Silver:

• Different Spine design
• Silver
• Hair on chest
• Blue rings on hands
• different shoes/gloves
• Different eye colour

Scourge: 

• Jacket
• Slashes on stomach
• Shades
• Green
• Blue eyes
• Completely different shoes
• Completely different teeth

You were saying?

1. You missed the point completely. I asked if next you were gonna compare recolour OCs to actual OCs with effort placed into their design. And if you say yes, then you really don't have an idea about the Sonic community when there's tons of OCs out there with actual time and effort placed into the design.

2.Already went over your claims that there wasn't enough to change Scourge, making your claim that Shadow/Amy/Silver is different. So go ahead, choose. Either they're all lazy, or they all aren't. You can't have it go both ways to suit your point when you keep contradicting yourself.

3. Repeating yourself doesn't make you right!

This is once again where your lack of evidence screws you over. Considering you just absolutely destroyed one of your main points without my help. Looks like there's a bit of irony, considering how many times you claimed I stated your argument for you. Here you go, more evidence directly from the comic. 

Source: http://archiesonic.wikia.com/wiki/Anarchy_Beryl

As for what turned Sonic's eyes green, that's completely irrelevant as it wasn't the same thing that occured to Scourge.

Would this be the fifth or sixth time you've ignored my explanation about your "fuckery" claim being bullshit? And no, I didn't use "fancy words for fuckery". That's once again your attempt to attempt to alter my original argument to suit your point, something that's failing. All of this is already disproven by the fucking fact I've already showed evidence that points out directly what Scourge's motivation is. I never said it was noble, but it isn't something as lazy as "fuckery, and to be cool", especially when the comic itself has already given multiple pieces of proof that completely disproves your point, and yet you still decide to ignore it all just to keep going on that you're correct despite displaying absolutely fuck all to even prove your point, while I've given plenty of evidence that outright disproves your points.

That's drawing it down to simple comparisons, seeing as you are referring to the Earth 2, where every hero is a good guy, and every villain is a bad guy, without ample explanation of why that is. When we see the hero version of Joker, he's usually there for a minute before he's killed off, such as Crisis on Two Earths for example. A better way to have put it is if Joker became the actual Batman if he didn't have the extremely crappy day he had, as it's very possible had he not done what he did in The Killing Joke, he'd still just be a lousy two-bit comedian who constantly fails in life. That parallel doesn't work.

No actually, that would be another example of irony, because what I said disproved your point completely. You claimed Sonic is displayed as some kind of saint. And since I know you'll attempt to claim "no i didn't say that", I'll even quote it.

Well look at that, a character telling Sonic he isn't some "all forgiving saint like person" by telling him he's isn't above everyone morally, that like Eggman or Naugus, or Scourge, all it would take is everything to go wrong for Sonic. For his life to go down the shitter, until he could possibly turn evil. That doesn't mean he'd be the same character as Eggman, or Naugus, or Scourge, but Sonic morally isn't as upright as he wants to believe he is. Once again, you're ignoring the entire point to strawman yourself again. Once again, it failed.

Except it doesn't work against my argument, that's just you trying to claim it once again in an attempt to look right without actually providing evidence. How about you start actually reading my points and coming up with a sound argument for it all instead of strawmanning a point by taking something out of context and attempting to make it work for your argument. I never said he's "straight up admitting he's sonic". If you're gonna try that bullshit, you might as well claim I'm saying "hes straight up eggman when shit hit the fan". Support your damn argument instead of attempting to pick any kind of out of context point to help you.

Odd, considering I just went over why your argument is bullshit again. But I'm sure you'll just comment again by trying to take out of context statements and strawman an argument for yourself. 

Actually you didn't. You gave irrelevant examples while I gave actual proof. Again, you're trying make me sound like an idiot by claiming "you threw me bones" when the reality is you didn't provide shit all evidence to actually support your point (No, random comic characters not even in the same situation as Sonic/Scourge doesn't count as evidence), and then took my points out of context in an attempt to make yourself sound right, only for me to once again go and explain why your argument isn't sound, and doesn't work.

Why do you keep bringing up Amy as a recolor of Sonic? She never ever was. Unlike Shadow, Silver, and Scourge, there are no physical similarities between her and Sonic outside of being hedgehogs. She's shorter, a girl and thus has a feminine figure, has completely different spikes even a Classic Amy, etc. She was never a 'pink' Sonic'. Amy Rose is Sonic's love interest, not a pink Girl Sonic. 

Anyways, the point of Scourge's character is that he is Evil Sonic. Before he was 'Scourge', he was just the plain, simple, bare-bones idea of an "Evil-Sonic" with little to no actual meaning or depth behind it. When he became Scourge, he actually became "Evil-Sonic" done right.  When he became Scourge, he actually gained a backstory, motivation, personality, and so on that made him complex but still boiled down to the simple idea of "Evil Sonic" as his core. He actually became a character on the same level as Metal Sonic, Shadow, and Silver. For example, Shadow makes the 'idea' of a Dark-Sonic into an actual character instead of nothing more than a darker colored Sonic who acted darker and edgier. Even Metal Sonic made the idea of a Metal Sonic into an actual character. And that is what was done with Scourge when he became green and got those scars.

[Big Panda]

You know, I never understood the name for Anarchy Beryl. Wouldn't a more appropriate name have been the Order Beryl or something?

[Sparky]

9 minutes ago, Ernest-Panda said:

You know, I never understood the name for Anarchy Beryl. Wouldn't a more appropriate name have been the Order Beryl or something?

Moebius couldn't decide whether it's Anti-Mobius or Evil-Mobius. Scourge is Evil Sonic, yet characters like O'Nux or Kintobor were more like Anti-Knuckles and Anti-Eggman.

[Monkey Destruction Switch]

Even then, though, "Anarchy Beryl" isn't the opposite of "Chaos Emerald" in any way. It's just a paraphrase, because anarchy is a kind of chaos and emeralds are a kind of beryl. I think "Order Emerald" would make a lot more sense, overall (or "Order Beryl" but that seems unnecessary).

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Eh, point still stands. There's a valid reason for Scourge to have access to his super form, same as Tails, Knux, Blaze, Silver, Shadow etc.

[Red Hot Jack]

So, VEDJ-F guessed right and the next arc about the Chaotix will be called "The Case of the Pirate Princess". I'm okay with this, because I like the plot idea, besides having that trio around who are always a joy, plus investigation stuff.

I wonder why the news was completely buried by discussions Moebians.

Also, I'm glad this arc has a 100% original plot which is not just "fight the villain", or "fight Naugus" like in the last 2 arcs.

[DabigRG]

42 minutes ago, Detective Chameleon said:

Also, I'm glad this arc has a 100% original plot which is not just "fight the villain", or "fight Naugus" like in the last 2 arcs.

Well, that is a benefit of having characters like the Chaotix around: you can have them do more unusual setups.

[Zaysho]

I think "Anarchy Beryl" is a catchier term, and I got the impression Scourge named them himself after his conquest of Moebius. I can honestly see him making some announcement about what the score is and the new names for everything (you know, being an megalomaniac with a huge ego and all). "Anarchy Beryl" seems like it better represents the state of Moebius as a whole, and I think that ties in to the lack of stability from them in comparison to the Chaos Emeralds. On Mobius Prime, characters could only use seven emeralds at a time, even when there was a large number of them, and when the user powers down, there are no ill-effects. On Moebius, Scourge could use a ton of Anarchy Beryl at once and his transformation lasts longer, but the second he powers down, he's weakened.

Maybe that's not the intention, but that's what I got from it.

[Forte-Metallix]

22 minutes ago, Zaysho said:

I think "Anarchy Beryl" is a catchier term, and I got the impression Scourge named them himself after his conquest of Moebius. I can honestly see him making some announcement about what the score is and the new names for everything (you know, being an megalomaniac with a huge ego and all). "Anarchy Beryl" seems like it better represents the state of Moebius as a whole, and I think that ties in to the lack of stability from them in comparison to the Chaos Emeralds. On Mobius Prime, characters could only use seven emeralds at a time, even when there was a large number of them, and when the user powers down, there are no ill-effects. On Moebius, Scourge could use a ton of Anarchy Beryl at once and his transformation lasts longer, but the second he powers down, he's weakened.

Maybe that's not the intention, but that's what I got from it.

Yeah, that pretty much sums it up.

Also, Flynn gave some additional details during a Q&A on that site: (So, no source again, unfortunately) Unlike Chaos Emeralds, pretty much anyone can use Anarchy Beryl to power up, but there's a catch: Chaos Emeralds are like coffee, and Anarchy Beryl is like crack: Both give you a huge burst of energy, but the difference is the aftereffects. An AB-powered Super form can theoretically last as long as the user wants, but keep it for more than a few hours, and you'll die when it wears off.

[Ellipsis-Ultima]

11 hours ago, Dejimon11 said:

Well looks like @VEDJ-F was right. Nice job detective.

That cover is really good! What I really like about it is the lighting.

9 hours ago, Forte-Metallix said:

So, to change the subject, what do you think we'll get out of Mega Drive: The Next Level? 

I'm looking forward to seeing my favorite Metal Blur getting a proper reintroduction, unlike the laughable Episode Metal. I'm just wondering if Robotnik will have a new scheme, or if Metal Sonic will just go out on his own, seeking revenge. If this is a tie-in to Sonic 4, maybe we'll get an explanation to what that treasure in Lost Labyrinth was.

I wonder if they're gonna combine vibes from Sonic 4 and maybe bits from the OVA movie?

When I say that, I mean maybe have Metal's personality a bit like from the said movie.

[Fletch]

Well, I got Mega Drive today. Did anyone else get it? Or still waiting? (Waiting for this topic to switch to talking completely about Mega Drive :V) 

[FriendBot]

I got it, like last week I think lol

[Dr. Detective]

20 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Eh, point still stands. There's a valid reason for Scourge to have access to his super form, same as Tails, Knux, Blaze, Silver, Shadow etc.

Maybe it's because I got into the series well after the Genesis titles with Sonic Adventure 2 but I've always felt that it was a bit strange that characters would even need a valid reason to have access to a Super form. The idea of Tails and Knuckles having one was weird to me at the time (and it still is a bit honestly) but that's only because I was having a hard time trying to fathom why they would need Super Emeralds (or whatever) to do it and why it's never been confirmed other people could try it as well. I'd prefer the experimentation with Supers gets a little more in-depth as we go on so that I could at least feel like someone over there isn't just playing favorites again. But to be honest, I'm not really all that into Super Transformation anyway. That might be another reason why I found the idea of Tails and Knuckles having one kind of silly. Perhaps my mind just equates that to him going Super Saiyan or something. But then again going Super Saiyan became a joke the instant little kids could just do it out of nowhere so... whatever.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I can understand it being silly for Tails to have a Super, but in all honestly, Knux should still have a Super Form by virtue of being the Master Emerald's guardian.

That said, allowing anyone as young as a child to have a super transformation isn't exactly a bad thing as long as you can give it reasonable limits and some believably as to why they have it. My favorite would be to give the ability risks for those who are unskilled in it - say that Tails can access Super Transformation, but the sudden exposure from the resulting Chaos Energy risks killing him due to not being used to it whereas Sonic has had a greater long term exposure to it, so his body has adapted to use it.

Heck, even characters as old as Rouge or Vector can die from the sudden infusion of Chaos Energy for the same reasons.

[Toby]

That would be... really weird. Very dark for the series and I could see it becoming a point of ridicule over how out of place it would be.

[Your Vest Friend]

Nah, I still think attuning to using the Chaos Emeralds being the only way of harnessing them is the better concept. It would even explain why Knuckles doesn't have one, because while he's the guardian of the Master Emerald, he has no personal interest in the power of the Chaos Emeralds. Substitute where appropriate for Blaze. 

[Sparky]

Just now, VEDJ-F said:

Nah, I still think attuning to using the Chaos Emeralds being the only way of harnessing them is the better concept. It would even explain why Knuckles doesn't have one, because while he's the guardian of the Master Emerald, he has no personal interest in the power of the Chaos Emeralds. Substitute where appropriate for Blaze. 

Knuckles kinda does have a Super form. Other than the Super transformation in Heroes, Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing shows him using the power of the Master Emerald to power up in a similar manner to Sonic and Shadow in the game.

[Heckboy]

2 hours ago, Mysterion said:

Well, I got Mega Drive today. Did anyone else get it? Or still waiting? (Waiting for this topic to switch to talking completely about Mega Drive :V) 

Yep, I got Mega Drive as well. Fun little story.

[blade57331]

27 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

Nah, I still think attuning to using the Chaos Emeralds being the only way of harnessing them is the better concept. It would even explain why Knuckles doesn't have one, because while he's the guardian of the Master Emerald, he has no personal interest in the power of the Chaos Emeralds. Substitute where appropriate for Blaze. 

I don't see why you would need have personal interest in chaos emeralds. Usually characters are going in Super forms when they need to, not when they feel like it.

[Your Vest Friend]

Well, when Knuckles comes across the Chaos Emeralds in SA1, he's just like "Eh, Sonic's the one who'll want these". Whereas Sonic uses them for the Super form almost exclusively (which can be when he feels like it in games where Super Sonic is a level unlock), Shadow has made use of it for Chaos powers and Silver can use them for time travel (albeit if I recall right you needed at least two Chaos Emeralds for that). 

[Sparky]

20 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

Well, when Knuckles comes across the Chaos Emeralds in SA1, he's just like "Eh, Sonic's the one who'll want these". Whereas Sonic uses them for the Super form almost exclusively (which can be when he feels like it in games where Super Sonic is a level unlock), Shadow has made use of it for Chaos powers and Silver can use them for time travel (albeit if I recall right you needed at least two Chaos Emeralds for that). 

Sonic 1 states that the Chaos Emeralds give energy to all living things, and 'Tikal's Prayer' implies that they respond to the hearts and intentions of whoever possesses them, so their prower isn't exclusively limited to Sonic, Shadow and Silver. Sonic, Shadow, and Silver are however, the ones with the closest connection to them and stuff. 

[blade57331]

 

28 minutes ago, VEDJ-F said:

Well, when Knuckles comes across the Chaos Emeralds in SA1, he's just like "Eh, Sonic's the one who'll want these". Whereas Sonic uses them for the Super form almost exclusively (which can be when he feels like it in games where Super Sonic is a level unlock), Shadow has made use of it for Chaos powers and Silver can use them for time travel (albeit if I recall right you needed at least two Chaos Emeralds for that). 

Knuckles did collect chaos emeralds and bringed them on his Island in SA1 at the end (before perfect chaos thing happend). So he surely had some interest in them.

About Super Sonic in random levels- Well, that's a just for gameplay thought. In story we mostly see used in more special occasions. 

[Big Panda]

53 minutes ago, blade57331 said:

 

About Super Sonic in random levels- Well, that's a just for gameplay thought. In story we mostly see used in more special occasions. 

The opening to Sonic 3 had him going super just so he could fly ahead of the Tornado to Angel Island.