Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[D.H]

5 hours ago, Soniman said:

Fiona went from bland arm candy for Sonic to detestable arm candy for Scourge 

Scourge went from a silly parody to a parody meant to be taken seriously... And is hated as a result 

Honestly I wouldn't use these characters as testaments to Ian's writing skills, I mean he did more with them sure but last I checked they weren't particularly loved under his run anyway lol

Scourge was a fairly popular character. At least compared to the other Archie exclusives.

That being said, I do agree that Scourge & Fiona sucked. I mean, I used to be a fan of Scourge back in 2009-2010, but nowadays, I just find him to be annoying. And Fiona was always bland to me.

[VO.SUPER]

1 hour ago, Forte-Metallix said:

Maybe go for Issues 1-50? #50 was originally meant to be the end of the book.

But any of Flynn's work is worth checking out: #160-247. Yeah, there's no definitive ending, but you'll be missing out on a lot of good stuff otherwise. And pretty much any Sonic Universe arc is worth your time, too. (The possible exception being Mobius: 30 Years Later) Those arcs are mostly self-contained.

I'm not really looking for the most definitive ending. Something that just feels conclusive, even if it leaves stuff hanging. Like, the ending of the HunterxHunter 2011 show.

[Forte-Metallix]

4 minutes ago, VisionaryofSUPER said:

I'm not really looking for the most definitive ending. Something that just feels conclusive, even if it leaves stuff hanging. Like, the ending of the HunterxHunter 2011 show.

Well then, Sonic Universe is definitely for you.

As for the main book, Genesis (226-229), the "fall" of the Eggman Empire (198-200), the Iron Dominion Saga (201-212), and Bold New Moebius (189-197)are all good arcs with satisfying endings. 

[VO.SUPER]

18 minutes ago, Forte-Metallix said:

Well then, Sonic Universe is definitely for you.

As for the main book, Genesis (226-229), the "fall" of the Eggman Empire (198-200), the Iron Dominion Saga (201-212), and Bold New Moebius (189-197)are all good arcs with satisfying endings. 

From my research, Iron Dominion seems like a good place to stop. Thanks for the help.

[Big Panda]

32 minutes ago, VisionaryofSUPER said:

From my research, Iron Dominion seems like a good place to stop. Thanks for the help.

Ehhhh maybe, but then there's still a bunch of nice stories after that that you'll miss out on.

[Zaysho]

5 hours ago, VisionaryofSUPER said:

Where is a good stopping point before the reboot though? Is there an issue that wraps things up pretty nicely with minor if no plot threads left dangling? 

Forget a stopping point. You get in the car and drive off the cliff in #247 like we all did.

[MetalSkulkBane]

6 hours ago, VisionaryofSUPER said:

Hey guys. I'm actually interested in collecting a bunch of the pre-reboot stuff. Where is a good stopping point before the reboot though? Is there an issue that wraps things up pretty nicely with minor if no plot threads left dangling? 

 

I'd really rather not end on a cliffhanger.

I would read to the end, it's not that bad (also Flynn said he will publish "Hedgehog Lost Tales" that explain what would happen later), and first issues of reboot have flashback to old world.

But if you really want to end without cliffhanger, then end on 212 (you can push to 218 if you don't mind ending with small story) and then skip to Genesis arc (226-229). There still be some smaller stories unfinished, but that's how Flynn writes; always leaving some loose ends. Sonic Universe keep reading until 28, then jump to Chaotix Quest 46-49 to finish one more plot point.

Of course you can read Worlds Collide too (Megaman 24, Sonic Universe 51, Sonic the Hedgehog 248, Megaman 25, etc) and then welcome to Reboot.

[Celestia]

Speaking of endings and Lost Hedgehog Tales, I'd be super interested in a bonus feature at the end or something that's all about how Ian would have ended (the pre-Genesis Wave version of) the book if there was a definitive ending.

[VO.SUPER]

9 hours ago, Ernest-Panda said:

Ehhhh maybe, but then there's still a bunch of nice stories after that that you'll miss out on.

Eh. I'm missing out on a good arc of HunterxHunter, but I'm good at ignoring these things. 

[SBR2]

16 hours ago, Soniman said:

Fiona went from bland arm candy for Sonic to detestable arm candy for Scourge 

Scourge went from a silly parody to a parody meant to be taken seriously... And is hated as a result 

Honestly I wouldn't use these characters as testaments to Ian's writing skills, I mean he did more with them sure but last I checked they weren't particularly loved under his run anyway lol

Fiona went from a background Character to a Character who had a fascinating past and was made out to always make the wrong decision. Scourge went from being a crappy annoying Comic staple of the "Evil Twin" to a character that has his own identity and his own plans.

You see it one way but others see it that way.

[goku262002]

13 hours ago, Zaysho said:

Forget a stopping point. You get in the car and drive off the cliff in #247 like we all did.

^this, ride it all out like we did, theres no stopping points that you want once you hit the Iron Dominion Arc, so you might as well finish it.

[MetalSkulkBane]

On 1.07.2016 at 11:18 PM, Soniman said:

Fiona went from bland arm candy for Sonic to detestable arm candy for Scourge 

Scourge went from a silly parody to a parody meant to be taken seriously... And is hated as a result 

Honestly I wouldn't use these characters as testaments to Ian's writing skills, I mean he did more with them sure but last I checked they weren't particularly loved under his run anyway lol

Umm, yes they were. Especially Scourge. This isn't something to debate, Flynn said in interviews that people send letters how they love Scourge. There are fanclub, fanarts, fanfics, proving that people liked Scourge. It's just that, just like Shadow, too popular characters often have hate clubs. No one cares enough to hate Zan (Dulcy's abusive boyfriend from one issue), but when "terrible" character is getting a praise and spotlight, then people rally against him. In fact, I'll risk saying that Scourge was most iconic Archie exclusive character. (Which admittedly isn't a good thing, since it show comics as "world of recolors".)

But in the end you can't judge character on being recolor or not (Luigi started as green Mario). It;s personality that matters. What I like about Scourge is his attitude, similar to Sonic, yet different. His ego, protecting his crown from falling on the ground, childish annoyance when Sonic broke the weapon he was going to break, trying to kick Metal in the crotch, he's movement has a lot personality to itself. He's not exactly a genius, but most mistakes he makes come from his personality flaws, similarly to most fun villains (Luthor, Vlad Plasmius, Eggman).

About his hooking up with Fiona... I admit the way it was presented wasn't very good. Fiona had almost zero personality, then Flynn of all people, showed her being ashamed of the past and doing sacrifices for the team, only to turn her into "no remorse" bad girl. Remind us of #134 with a slap scene wasn't very smart either,  and let me don't even start on "you could be just like me" part.

But ignoring the transformation of the character, I much more prefer evil chick Fiona to pointless addition to the team Fiona. New Fiona isn't amazing, but brings tension, moves story, creates emotions, gives Scourge some one to work-of. Old Fiona...was paired with Tails. Because they foxes. I'm fully aware that shipping isn't based on logic, but I'll never understand the appeal of this couple. All scenes they shared together (before betrayal) either made it clear this is one-sided and wouldn't work or she was a robot trying to kill him.

[Shadowlax]

I value scrouge for being a giant joke, he wasn't a good character, he was infact completely 1 dimensional and one note, and they played on that and that became the point of his character, a giant joke.

 

I would like more meta humor in this comic tbh

[Ryannumber1gamer]

1 hour ago, Shadowlax said:

I value scrouge for being a giant joke, he wasn't a good character, he was infact completely 1 dimensional and one note, and they played on that and that became the point of his character, a giant joke.

 

I would like more meta humor in this comic tbh

And how so did he become a joke? How was he one dimensional? He has a backstory, motivation, and a full personality.

[Shadowlax]

4 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

And how so did he become a joke? How was he one dimensional? He has a backstory, motivation, and a full personality.

So I'm going to preface this with, I like scourge and want him to come back, this is why I like him. But what I'm goiing to say is blunt , i'm going to address your post backwards .

I have to preface this, this is going to be long, scourge is a character I truly like talking about because i genuinely enjoy the characters existence. But you quoted this a while ago and I have no idea if you even still wish to deal with that.

So if you do i'll post it, if you don't i'll let it be.
 

[Ryannumber1gamer]

4 minutes ago, Shadowlax said:

So I'm going to preface this with, I like scourge and want him to come back, this is why I like him. But what I'm goiing to say is blunt , i'm going to address your post backwards .

I have to preface this, this is going to be long, scourge is a character I truly like talking about because i genuinely enjoy the characters existence. But its long you quoted this a while ago and I have no idea if you even still wish to deal with that.

So if you do i'll post it, if you don't i'll let it be.
 

Feel free to do so, because right now, you're contradicting your own point, and I would like to see my points addressed.

[Shadowlax]

11 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Feel free to do so, because right now, you're contradicting your own point, and I would like to see my points addressed.

Spoiler

I really enjoy scourge and want him to come back, I think he's one of the most interesting characters to explain in his simplicity, so this one might be a bit long, ironically enough I need the length to explain how simple he is. I would almost call his joke meta minimalism, if his character didn't sort of fall apart suggesting anytype of complexity

His back story is, i'm evil sonic.

His personality is I'm evil sonic

His motivation is fuckery, and then it became "I don't like sonic much and would like to rule the world.... so I can do fuckery."

How is he one dimensional, easy, he's the evil version of a one dimensional character, with no changes or nothing, he's just literally asshole sonic. And sonic wasn't that complicated to begin with. Sonic ain't that complicated, to be honest he isn't that interesting, he works best in a non game medium surrounded by other people because of how one note he is, he needs someone to literally and figuratively bounce off of, because being a cool guy isn't enough to carry a narrative, and scourge being the evil doesn't really add anything to that. Sonic is a piece of toast with shades, but scourge is actually wearing shades.

To go into further to this, you know that shadow concept art that came out a little while ago at that event. Ok Shadow's an interesting peice in this puzzle because shadow is a character who's original intent was to be a darker sonic an alter ego, he failed, gloriously. He failed because he wasn't that much like sonic at all besides being a hedgehog, he was "vastly" ( he was complicated for a sonic character)  way more complicated than sonic and actually had unique motivations and desires and changed and evolved, his character design doc represents that, you see all those faux sonics, those failed designs that are just barely different that sonic, no coherent design, no imagination just dark sonic, that's scourge. Scourge is when you take that idea and don't put any imagination behind it, shadow is what you get when you do, but when you do, you end up creating an entirely different character entirely because sonic isn't that much of a character to begin with. He's simple, that's why characters actually having something going on as simple as that may be, is actually novel.

Now you might be like " ok why did you bring shadow up , what's he's got to do with this" trust me , he actually has a lot to do with this and you will understand by the end of this. Because he is an important piece to the scourge joke as it were. Also oddly enough one of the few characters unless i'm forgetting something who did not have an evil version, which is another level of meta humor, accidental or no, in itself.

But anywho back to my point so we got though Sonic being 1 dimensional, Scourge being 1 dimensional by being a low level take on change on that character and other sonic characters being more interesting by being more than sonic, and by relation  also scourge .

So the joke how is he a joke, to explain this we must reach to the oldest folks in the comic book game. DC comics, and one of the most critically praised comic book characters Super Boy prime. Now I could go into... a longer explanation at how good superboy prime was, to put it simply he was a shit. That was the point, he was a shit, and by doing so represented 4 jokes.

He was a joke towards to creators

He was a joke towards the fans

He was a joke towards the medium/immediate universe

He was a giant joke against to two types of detractors

In order, the joke at the creator's is taking a shot at themselves, they work in a series where they allowed this to exist, and this character, scourge , isn't exactly that great, so let’s take it its illogical extreme. What that illogical extreme will get a name that brings this all together and how accidentally brilliant the guy working megadrive actually is. But basically "this character is extremely simple, hilariously so. Lets roll with it"

He was a joke towards the fans because as much as well like to show some of the more well done efforts of sonic fan production off. Fan games, good fan stories and characters, sonic is also absorbed by a lot of children who like to make fan characters some of those like everyone's first drawings aren't the most... creative. See where i'm going with this?

Its a joke towards the series itself is making a character that sort of embodies of some of the worse or more exaggerated elements that have come to pass. An exaggerated version of some of the things people complain about.

The biggest joke is that at folks that are critical, these two in particularly people who may like a certain section of the subject in material in this case sonic , and are dismissive of other sections of it. And people who are just dismissive of the thing entirely brushing off everything they see or glace at justifying it with memes and regurgitated sonic cycle images. It happens now, every once in a while people just post scourge and people recoil in horror about " how bad this comic is and how it sunk so low" when in actuality if they actually understood it beyond just preemptive cynicism they would get the joke.

He's original The character.

He turned into a literal shitty sonic recolor, with scars, shades a damned jacket terrible catch phrases, tries to get all the girls, got over powered for no goddamned reason, and just evil and wants to commit fuckery. He is literally Original character Donuts Steel, he is what other people think sonic characters are and what people think sonic fan characters are.... and actually what some sonic fan characters are, not going to pretend like sonic fanfiction is a bastion of quality, but my point is. He is a joke, he turned into the personification of every post classic sonic meme in existence. Complete with his personality being one note and nothing.

You remember when I brought up the shadow concept art, you know how when people saw that concept art they appreciated how shadow turned out, because his concept art was actually dark sonic with no creativity and they had to reevaluate what that actually meant when they actually showed how creative and well done shadow's design actually is now understanding a bit of his popularity. Scourge is that, Scourge is the concept art that in itself was 6 degrees from basically being cold steel, that's how much a meme scourge is.

But to the point about the concept art, that's what scourge is, and why people like him and super boy prime are brilliant in their execution, it shows the worst and makes you appreciate what you got.  There are not above just being liked as dumb edgy things, but they are greater than, scourge made every single person he was in proximity with better after interacting with scourge. Sonic actually thought about who he was, amy was giving rousing speeches to sonic, tails stood up for himself and beat Sonic’s shit in, shadow showed how much of a super bro he was and down for the cause. He made everyone better and shine, by being next to them because he was this pile of shit. That was his homeostasis , they took a one note nothing character, and made him a character by emphasizing that nothing and making everyone look cool. It’s even reflected in their personalities towards scourge, they fucking hate him, because he's shit. Like they know he's the personification of all the memes that have been memed about sonic and they need to remove it.

His brilliance is that he is a shitty one note, nothing character. That is his value. He nothing and that's why he's great. Not everyone has to be cool, sometimes you just need yamcha to keep everyone in perspective. Someone who think's they are cool, but not actually. That's scourge.

 

Enjoy, how scourge is nothing and a joke, and that's how he should be and that's how his character is good.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Except one problem. That applies to this character:

Spoiler

But not this character:

Spoiler

Let's address your points one by one.

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His back story is, i'm evil sonic.

Wrong. His back-story is widely different from Sonic's. While Sonic's childhood was spent lovingly with his parents, and his Uncle Chuck, Dr. Robotnik forced him and his fellow freedom fighters into a war, forcing them to grow up right there, and right then. Sonic spent his entire life as a fighter, being the last line of defense against Robotnik's plans. That's Sonic's backstory.

Scourge's backstory is very different. There wasn't a war. There wasn't Eggman, or Robotnik. Only Kintobar, a kindly scientist who wanted to help the world and those around him. This allowed Jules the Hedgehog to become king, and bring in a new rule, called The Great Peace. However, unlike Sonic, Jules was a general asshole, and couldn't care less about Scourge. This caused him to grow up unloved, rejected, and neglected. This is when he decided he would prove himself worthy of Jules', taking his rule by force, and creating the Anti-Freedom Fighters. 

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His personality is I'm evil sonic

Wrong. His personality is all negative aspects Sonic has pushed up to max, and more. Sonic has a small ego. Scourge has something to prove. He has big words, and speeches, but unlike Sonic, he feels he needs to constantly prove to everyone, and himself that he really is the best. While Sonic's entire motivation is to fight for his friends, and for freedom for the world, Scrouge only cares about himself. About gaining power. About proving everyone is below him. So he won't be ignored again like he was with Jules. 

Spoiler

His motivation is fuckery, and then it became "I don't like sonic much and would like to rule the world.... so I can do fuckery."

100% Wrong. Scourge's main motivations is to prove he isn't just a simple imitation. That's literally the opening words of Scourge: Lockdown.

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I used to be a nobody...No....Worst. I was a knockoff. An Evil Sonic, on an Evil Mobius, then with a little power burst from the master emerald, I finally became a somebody! A real....*Scourge*. Nobody could step up to me! Not Sonic, Not Shadow, and certainly not my world! I made myself the king! 

I was cheated, and beat by my weaker minded knockoff...

This shows Scourge is desperately trying to prove he isn't ordinary. He isn't a copy and paste. He's unique, he stands out, he's better than his so-called "knock offs". Scourge's second motivation is to gain attention. To make sure no one can forget and ignore him, not after Jules, and the rest of his world did it to him.

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How is he one dimensional, easy, he's the evil version of a one dimensional character, with no changes or nothing, he's just literally asshole sonic. And sonic wasn't that complicated to begin with. Sonic ain't that complicated, to be honest he isn't that interesting, he works best in a non game medium surrounded by other people because of how one note he is, he needs someone to literally and figuratively bounce off of, because being a cool guy isn't enough to carry a narrative, and scourge being the evil doesn't really add anything to that. Sonic is a piece of toast with shades, but scourge is actually wearing shades.

Except Sonic isn't a one dimensional character, when he has a set of goals/motivations, a fully determined personality, and a backstory that's changed throughout multiple continuities. Sonic's motivations, as I mentioned is to ensure freedom, and safety for his friends. While he goes into dangerous situations, and jokes around, making him seem like just a thrill-seeker, at the root of the character, he's a character who's always there for his friends, and innocent people who just need a hand, and that motivation and personality has stayed with him. I could go deeper into this, but this is about Scourge.

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To go into further to this, you know that shadow concept art that came out a little while ago at that event. Ok Shadow's an interesting peice in this puzzle because shadow is a character who's original intent was to be a darker sonic an alter ego, he failed, gloriously. He failed because he wasn't that much like sonic at all besides being a hedgehog, he was "vastly" ( he was complicated for a sonic character)  way more complicated than sonic and actually had unique motivations and desires and changed and evolved, his character design doc represents that, you see all those faux sonics, those failed designs that are just barely different that sonic, no coherent design, no imagination just dark sonic, that's scourge. Scourge is when you take that idea and don't put any imagination behind it, shadow is what you get when you do, but when you do, you end up creating an entirely different character entirely because sonic isn't that much of a character to begin with. He's simple, that's why characters actually having something going on as simple as that may be, is actually novel.

1. I'm pretty sure all the Shadow fans, you know, the ones who propelled him to the second most popular character of the series. 

2. Already talked about his motivations, personality and such.

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He was a joke towards the fans because as much as well like to show some of the more well done efforts of sonic fan production off. Fan games, good fan stories and characters, sonic is also absorbed by a lot of children who like to make fan characters some of those like everyone's first drawings aren't the most... creative. See where i'm going with this?

Its a joke towards the series itself is making a character that sort of embodies of some of the worse or more exaggerated elements that have come to pass. An exaggerated version of some of the things people complain about.

The biggest joke is that at folks that are critical, these two in particularly people who may

Wrong. Sonic Retro describes the reason and original concept of Shadow as such:

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After the success of Sonic Adventure, it was only natural to assume that a sequel would be produced. Hoping that the game would be what Sonic the Hedgehog 2 was for the Mega Drive, a portion of the team responsible for the first Adventure title was sent off to work at SEGA of America. Dubbed "Sonic Team USA," it was led by Director Takashi Iizuka, while Yuji Naka remained back in Japan to work on other properties, including Phantasy Star Online. With the team in place, brainstorming soon began on what form Sonic Adventure 2 would take.

Early on, it was decided that one of the main themes of the game would be the dichotomy between good and evil, and to help explore that the creators came up with new characters that would both assist Dr. Eggman and challenge the established cast of heroes. Though Yuji Uekawa was tasked drawing the final design of the character, it was Iizuka who came up with the idea to use a dark, anti-hero figure who was similar to Sonic in shape but not in personality. When being designed, his original name was Terios, which translates to "reflection of," more than likely to play off the hero/villain dynamic within the game.

Once Sonic Adventure 2 was announced, the identity and nature of Shadow was a heavily guarded secret, his existence teased at the end of the first trailer for the game.Indeed, the push to build hype for the new character put other characters on the backburner, Tails not even being announced for the game until a few months later. The marketing push for the character was so great that, when players reached the end of Adventure 2 and saw the "death" of Shadow, there were many who doubted this was the last time Shadow would appear. As it were, Iizuka would later admit that he always had future plans for the character, hoping to have him star in his own game. This eventually happened with the release of Shadow the Hedgehog for the three main systems of the era.

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He turned into a literal shitty sonic recolor, with scars, shades a damned jacket terrible catch phrases, tries to get all the girls, got over powered for no goddamned reason, and just evil and wants to commit fuckery. He is literally Original character Donuts Steel, he is what other people think sonic characters are and what people think sonic fan characters are.... and actually what some sonic fan characters are, not going to pretend like sonic fanfiction is a bastion of quality, but my point is. He is a joke, he turned into the personification of every post classic sonic meme in existence. Complete with his personality being one note and nothing.

No, it isn't original the character when A. The design isn't just green sonic with blue eyes. By adding additional design concepts, then that design becomes more unique. If you're going to say that, you might as well say Amy is a recolour of Sonic with Tails/Knuckles' hair, Metal Sonic is Sonic but metallic and with red eyes, Shadow/Silver is Sonic with different spine angles, and more. He isn't overpowered either. He's on the exact same power level as Sonic, which makes sense. Scourge only beats Sonic on several occasions due to being either powered by the master emerald, or going into his super form, going against the others in their regular forms. Your claims of him just being in it for "evil lawls" has already been disproved. 

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You remember when I brought up the shadow concept art, you know how when people saw that concept art they appreciated how shadow turned out, because his concept art was actually dark sonic with no creativity and they had to reevaluate what that actually meant when they actually showed how creative and well done shadow's design actually is now understanding a bit of his popularity. Scourge is that, Scourge is the concept art that in itself was 6 degrees from basically being cold steel, that's how much a meme scourge is.

 Except it turned out that Shadow's personality is completely different, much like how Scourge is. As I've already said multiple times at this point.

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His brilliance is that he is a shitty one note, nothing character. That is his value. He nothing and that's why he's great. Not everyone has to be cool, sometimes you just need yamcha to keep everyone in perspective.

No, His original concept by Ken Penders was a piece of shit, one dimensional boring character with absolutely no character, or value. Ian Flynn took that empty slate, and turned it into an actual character with interesting motivations when compared to the rest of the villains of the comic. Unlike every other villain who only wanted power, and that's it, Scourge was out to prove to everyone, and himself especially that he is the real deal, that he isn't just a simple fake. That is why I refer to Scourge as a completely different character altogether, because Evil Sonic is a completely different, and lesser character.

[Shadowlax]

30 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

  Reveal hidden contents

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Wrong. His back-story is widely different from Sonic's. While Sonic's childhood was spent lovingly with his parents, and his Uncle Chuck, Dr. Robotnik forced him and his fellow freedom fighters into a war, forcing them to grow up right there, and right then. Sonic spent his entire life as a fighter, being the last line of defense against Robotnik's plans. That's Sonic's backstory.

Scourge's backstory is very different. There wasn't a war. There wasn't Eggman, or Robotnik. Only Kintobar, a kindly scientist who wanted to help the world and those around him. This allowed Jules the Hedgehog to become king, and bring in a new rule, called The Great Peace. However, unlike Sonic, Jules was a general asshole, and couldn't care less about Scourge. This caused him to grow up unloved, rejected, and neglected. This is when he decided he would prove himself worthy of Jules', taking his rule by force, and creating the Anti-Freedom Fighters. 

 

Ok so he's evil Jealous Sonic.

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Wrong. His personality is all negative aspects Sonic has pushed up to max,

So he's evil sonic.

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His motivation is fuckery, and then it became "I don't like sonic much and would like to rule the world.... so I can do fuckery."

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100% Wrong. Scourge's main motivations is to prove he isn't just a simple imitation. That's literally the opening words of Scourge: Lockdown.

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This shows Scourge is desperately trying to prove he isn't ordinary. He isn't a copy and paste. He's unique, he stands out, he's better than his so-called "knock offs". Scourge's second motivation is to gain attention. To make sure no one can forget and ignore him, not after Jules, and the rest of his world did it to him.

When A literal edgy sonic recolor is claiming he doesn't want to be a knock off, I think that's called a joke. Or rather a meta joke, you get it? The sonic recolor is complaining about being treated as a recolor... dats da joke.

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Except Sonic isn't a one dimensional character, when he has a set of goals/motivations, a fully determined personality, and a backstory that's changed throughout multiple continuities

That does not make a character not 1 dimensional, you wanna know who's a one dimensional, Jean gray, she has all those things, the most interesting thing that happened to jean gray, is that she got the pheonix force... and then she just became evil jean gray.... and she was still 1 dimensional. But sometimes she was an asshole. I can write a character that has a back story( also sonic doesn't actually have that many back stories iirc ) but a personality and goals... but that doesn't really make him interesting . Sonic is hero man the hero man, who is cool sometimes... that's about as complicated as his character ever gets, or ever really needs to be. He's a basic floor for other more complicated people to build off of.  Sometimes he meets someone who makes him think, but no he's just cool platformer man. Lets be real here.

 

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Sonic's motivations, as I mentioned is to ensure freedom, and safety for his friends.

Sonic's motivations is to stop fuckery

Scourge's motivations is to cause fuckery

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While he goes into dangerous situations, and jokes around, making him seem like just a thrill-seeker, at the root of the character, he's a character who's always there for his friends, and innocent people who just need a hand, and that motivation and personality has stayed with him. I could go deeper into this, but this is about Scourge.

Being a hero doesn't make you an interesting character. There are a bunch of X men who can tell you that for free, it also doesn't make you a deep or compelling. There are bunch of X men who can tell you that for free.
 

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Wrong. Sonic Retro describes the reason and original concept of Shadow as such:

 Huh , that's legitimately fair you brought up proof and I can't argue that. Though I will still stand by his designs just being dark sonic, with no imagination and scourge... being just that.

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No, it isn't original the character when A. The design isn't just green sonic with blue eyes. By adding additional design concepts, then that design becomes more unique.

Fam he is literally green sonic with a jacket and scars , fam come on fam. What are you doin fam?

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If you're going to say that, you might as well say Amy is a recolour of Sonic with Tails/Knuckles' hair,

No I wouldn't say that because outside of her orginal incarnation, which got re-upped as rosie the rascal before the pandering, she loooks... nothing like sonic. Unlike scourge who is litterally sonic with a different color and spilled coffee on his chest.

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Metal Sonic is Sonic but metallic and with red eyes,

Yes... he's metal sonic

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Shadow/Silver is Sonic with different spine angles, and more.

Eh not really, I wouldn't say that because they don't look exactly like sonic... you are failing with this comparison thing you are trying to do when the character in question is literally just ultraman sonic. Ultraman being the evil version of super man who snorts kryptonite for his powers.

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He isn't overpowered either. He's on the exact same power level as Sonic, which makes sense. Scourge only beats Sonic on several occasions due to being either powered by the master emerald, or going into his super form, going against the others in their regular forms.

" I have a super form no one else has.... for reasons"

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Your claims of him just being in it for "evil lawls" has already been disproved. 

No you have yet to do that... actually.

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Except it turned out that Shadow's personality is completely different, much like how Scourge is.

When the character you are trying to argue for literally admits he would have turned out like sonic , but he had a shit life... he literally uses the " I'm you on a bad day " bit, like strait up. He's just evil sonic dude.

 

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Unlike every other villain who only wanted power, and that's it, Scourge was out to prove to everyone, and himself especially that he is the real deal, that he isn't just a simple fake. That is why I refer to Scourge as a completely different character altogether, because Evil Sonic is a completely different, and lesser character.

The sonic recolor want's to prove that's he's more than a sonic recolor... Hmm that seems like meta humor. That's seems like a joke.

 

I tried to quote... it didn't work out that well, but I tried

[Ryannumber1gamer]

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Ok so he's evil Jealous Sonic.

No, that's you ignoring my entire look into their different backgrounds to strawman your own point. These backstories explain their entire motivation, and if you're going to try stawman it as "ugh jealous" than I guess you think Bruce Wayne's backstory is just "ugh lonely".

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So he's evil sonic.

Perhaps try posting all of it so you don't try making it look like I "support" your point. 

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Wrong. His personality is all negative aspects Sonic has pushed up to max, and more. Sonic has a small ego. Scourge has something to prove. He has big words, and speeches, but unlike Sonic, he feels he needs to constantly prove to everyone, and himself that he really is the best. While Sonic's entire motivation is to fight for his friends, and for freedom for the world, Scrouge only cares about himself. About gaining power. About proving everyone is below him. So he won't be ignored again like he was with Jules. 

You know, where I talk about things such as his attention seeking, and inferiority complex? 

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When A literal edgy sonic recolor is claiming he doesn't want to be a knock off, I think that's called a joke. Or rather a meta joke, you get it? The sonic recolor is complaining about being treated as a recolor... dats da joke.

No actually, I call it giving a character a unique motivation rather than just "grr i want power". It's a motivation of wanting to prove yourself to be something more. As in not being compared to other people and being "lesser than them". It's called adverting a trope, as in Scrouge adverts the cliche of evil twin by wanting to actually move on and become his own villain. That's the entire point of his story arc and development. I think it's called character development and narrative actually. As in taking a character from one point in their life, and progressing their character. As in the exact thing that's occured to Scourge. 

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That does not make a character not 1 dimensional, you wanna know who's a one dimensional, Jean gray, she has all those things, the most interesting thing that happened to jean gray, is that she got the pheonix force... and then she just became evil jean gray.... and she was still 1 dimensional. But sometimes she was an asshole. I can write a character that has a back story( also sonic doesn't actually have that many back stories iirc ) but a personality and goals... but that doesn't really make him interesting . Sonic is hero man the hero man, who is cool sometimes... that's about as complicated as his character ever gets, or ever really needs to be. He's a basic floor for other more complicated people to build off of.  Sometimes he meets someone who makes him think, but no he's just cool platformer man. Lets be real here.

And Jean Gray has what to do with this debate? As for your claims of one dimensional characters...

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In literature, as in life, we often see growth, change, and internal conflict carried out in a single character. The term one-dimensional character in a book review refers to a character who lacks depth and who never seems to learn or grow.

If a character is one-dimensional, he or she does not demonstrate a sense of learning in the course of a story. Authors may use such a character to highlight a certain trait; usually an undesirable one.

Maybe you'd have a point if we talked strictly games (which I'd still argue) but comics have showed Sonic going through a lot of development, even throughout the dark ages of the comic. Even stuff like his relationship with Sally displayed Sonic having to move past it and grow. For example, after the infamous slap. Sonic wouldn't be displaying development if he decided "fuck sally, i'm done, i'm never talking to her again". Instead, he moves past it, and attempts to later create a relationship with her under new, better, and stable terms. The Mecha Sally arc was entirely about deconstructing Sonic's character, which was the entire point of him going into his despair mode until Amy/Tails snap him out of it. 

Same for Scourge. He started out as nothing more than a dipshit just looking to cause random trouble. He later went through development to gain new motivations, new goals, and new things to aspire to. That's his character growth, and Bold New Moebius was the entire point of it.

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No I wouldn't say that because outside of her orginal incarnation, which got re-upped as rosie the rascal before the pandering, she loooks... nothing like sonic. Unlike scourge who is litterally sonic with a different color and spilled coffee on his chest.

That's called adding new design aspects to a character. If we were to take Amy's design to bare bones, take Sonic, turn him pink, add Knuckles/Tails hair, hairband, and a dress, and new character! It's different elements added to a design that stands a character out, or are you really going to begin comparing lazy OCs which is just one character recoloured to actual OCs with effort, and time placed into creating them?

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Eh not really, I wouldn't say that because they don't look exactly like sonic... you are failing with this comparison thing you are trying to do when the character in question is literally just ultraman sonic. Ultraman being the evil version of super man who snorts kryptonite for his powers.

So by your logic, taking a character, and giving them their own unique elements to their design is a recolour ripoff, but taking a character, changing angles of their spines, and there you go, new character design that's totally unique!

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" I have a super form no one else has.... for reasons"

  

 

 

I'm sorry, you were saying? For the record, Scourge, having Sonic's abilities has a perfect reason for being able to tap into his world's version of the chaos emeralds. There's the irony. He has the exact same reason Blaze, Shadow, and Sonic have super forms.

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No you have yet to do that... actually.

Actually, I have, considering I outright explained his character motivations and goals by using evidence directly from the comic itself. What you have failed to do is provide evidence that backs up your claims of "fuckery" when I've provided multiple pieces of evidence that disproves your point.

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When the character you are trying to argue for literally admits he would have turned out like sonic , but he had a shit life... he literally uses the " I'm you on a bad day " bit, like strait up. He's just evil sonic dude.

No, actually. You might as well say that Joker would have been Batman for using the speech. What Scourge was saying through that speech is Sonic isn't some grand hero who stands above the rest. He's the same as everyone else. All it takes is for shit to hit the fan, and Sonic could very well turn out as bad as him, Eggman, Naugus etc. No. He was Evil Sonic, when Ken Penders wrote a one-dimensional character. He became his own character when Ian Flynn wrote him like an actual fucking character, and not a cliche.

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The sonic recolor want's to prove that's he's more than a sonic recolor... Hmm that seems like meta humor. That's seems like a joke.

How about I repeat this once again?

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No actually, I call it giving a character a unique motivation rather than just "grr i want power". It's a motivation of wanting to prove yourself to be something more. As in not being compared to other people and being "lesser than them". It's called adverting a trope, as in Scrouge adverts the cliche of evil twin by wanting to actually move on and become his own villain. That's the entire point of his story arc and development. I think it's called character development and narrative actually. As in taking a character from one point in their life, and progressing their character. As in the exact thing that's occured to Scourge.

How about providing some evidence to back up your point, since you've provided nothing to back up anything you've said, while I've taken quotes directly out of the comic itself to show exactly what Scourge's motivations, and entire character is meant to be. 

[Sean]

Just re-read the Genesis arc; it's fanservicey fun but ultimately nothing special. But #230, its aftermath, is probably one of my all-time favorite standalone issues. I hope one of these days we get a post-reboot Archie storyline that replicates its dramatic timing and high stakes, because everything about that issue, from Eggman nearly losing his mind again and subsequent gloating of his plans for the world roboticizer, to Sally's heartbreaking sacrifice (which is handled a million times better than the garbage Endgame arc), was fantastic and well-paced.

[Soniman]

28 minutes ago, Sean said:

Just re-read the Genesis arc; it's fanservicey fun but ultimately nothing special. But #230, its aftermath, is probably one of my all-time favorite standalone issues. I hope one of these days we get a post-reboot Archie storyline that replicates its dramatic timing and high stakes, because everything about that issue, from Eggman nearly losing his mind again and subsequent gloating of his plans for the world roboticizer, to Sally's heartbreaking sacrifice (which is handled a million times better than the garbage Endgame arc), was fantastic and well-paced.

I actually been meaning to ask for awhile if Endgame is even liked anymore? It used to be touted as the iconic finale to Archie Sonic before the "dark ages"  but besides that memorable finale clash between Sonic and Robotnik I  believe it's pretty naff 

[Sean]

It was very well-liked for the longest time. But once more people began to realize how much of a shit writer Penders was, a lot of its flaws just got more apparent with age. Ever since the lawsuit, I haven't seen one person utter a positive thing about Endgame, aside from that fight with Robotnik that you mentioned which I still have a soft spot for due to Spaz's contributions.

[Zaysho]

The general opinion I've seen of "End Game" has typically been that it's not really a high point in the series or and doesn't hold up nearly as well as Ken Penders would like people to believe. If anything the stuff that follows it (the world tour and Naugus arcs, as well as some of the earlier Knuckles stories) is generally better, and pretty solid, up until we get to "Sonic Adventure" (though we get dumb shit like how Sonic's design was updated). Then it's a slow burn into the "dark age" material prior to Pellerito taking over as editor.

[Celestia]

People have become more critical of that story over time (particularly post-lawsuit shenanigans, unsurprisingly). I never read anything from that specific point in the comic, though, so I can't really comment--I've read the issues in Mega Collection, and I started reading the book sometime around...100? 110? Yeah, I was pretty much just in time for the entirety of the really bad era.

Maybe I should find my old comics and post a pic of them all. Assuming they're even still in the same spot they were last time I checked. (Forgive me and my family for being such a mess, please......)

Edited July 4, 2016 by Celestia