Megathread Archie Sonic Main Discussion

[Zaysho]

Yeah, admittedly, Penders's actions have led to some really heavy backlash on pretty much all of his stories, though I think putting that aside, "End Game" is just not a very good story in general. For what was apparently meant to be a last hurrah, they seemed to make up a lot of shit and or ignore some plot points from previous stories (unsurprisingly, the stories Penders DIDN'T write) to make this make sense, as well as introducing new characters and giving them the spotlight (Hershey and Drago in particular), or give more importance to Penders's creations like St. John and allowing him to railroad Sonic despite it should be painfully obvious Sonic WOULDN'T have attempted to murder Sally, especially following the fucking trial he was put under when he was kidnapped and roboticized ("Mecha Madness").

I've been meaning to re-read that one, though, since I have the Archives up to vol. 13, but I think when you read about the development and where the comic was going at that point, you can tell nobody had any idea what to do because they had practically zero confidence in the book lasting. It's all doom and gloom if you go by Penders's take, even though plans to continue past #50 were already solidified well before part one hit the stands.

The more I think about it, Flynn's "Eggman Wars" arc (197-200) is basically him getting a chance to re-do "End Game" without the overcomplicated bullshit or drama, closing the book on another era of the comics, and ushering in a new one with the "Iron Dominion" arc and the eventual lead-up to "Genesis" and beyond. It's too bad his plans got tossed with the lawsuit.

Edited July 4, 2016 by Zaysho

[MetalSkulkBane]

Yeah, I never liked Endgame. I guess it was just exiting back then, when status quo barely changed.

[Sparky]

8 hours ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

No, that's you ignoring my entire look into their different backgrounds to strawman your own point. These backstories explain their entire motivation, and if you're going to try stawman it as "ugh jealous" than I guess you think Bruce Wayne's backstory is just "ugh lonely".

Perhaps try posting all of it so you don't try making it look like I "support" your point. 

You know, where I talk about things such as his attention seeking, and inferiority complex? 

No actually, I call it giving a character a unique motivation rather than just "grr i want power". It's a motivation of wanting to prove yourself to be something more. As in not being compared to other people and being "lesser than them". It's called adverting a trope, as in Scrouge adverts the cliche of evil twin by wanting to actually move on and become his own villain. That's the entire point of his story arc and development. I think it's called character development and narrative actually. As in taking a character from one point in their life, and progressing their character. As in the exact thing that's occured to Scourge. 

And Jean Gray has what to do with this debate? As for your claims of one dimensional characters...

Maybe you'd have a point if we talked strictly games (which I'd still argue) but comics have showed Sonic going through a lot of development, even throughout the dark ages of the comic. Even stuff like his relationship with Sally displayed Sonic having to move past it and grow. For example, after the infamous slap. Sonic wouldn't be displaying development if he decided "fuck sally, i'm done, i'm never talking to her again". Instead, he moves past it, and attempts to later create a relationship with her under new, better, and stable terms. The Mecha Sally arc was entirely about deconstructing Sonic's character, which was the entire point of him going into his despair mode until Amy/Tails snap him out of it. 

Same for Scourge. He started out as nothing more than a dipshit just looking to cause random trouble. He later went through development to gain new motivations, new goals, and new things to aspire to. That's his character growth, and Bold New Moebius was the entire point of it.

That's called adding new design aspects to a character. If we were to take Amy's design to bare bones, take Sonic, turn him pink, add Knuckles/Tails hair, hairband, and a dress, and new character! It's different elements added to a design that stands a character out, or are you really going to begin comparing lazy OCs which is just one character recoloured to actual OCs with effort, and time placed into creating them?

So by your logic, taking a character, and giving them their own unique elements to their design is a recolour ripoff, but taking a character, changing angles of their spines, and there you go, new character design that's totally unique!

  

 

 

I'm sorry, you were saying? For the record, Scourge, having Sonic's abilities has a perfect reason for being able to tap into his world's version of the chaos emeralds. There's the irony. He has the exact same reason Blaze, Shadow, and Sonic have super forms.

Actually, I have, considering I outright explained his character motivations and goals by using evidence directly from the comic itself. What you have failed to do is provide evidence that backs up your claims of "fuckery" when I've provided multiple pieces of evidence that disproves your point.

No, actually. You might as well say that Joker would have been Batman for using the speech. What Scourge was saying through that speech is Sonic isn't some grand hero who stands above the rest. He's the same as everyone else. All it takes is for shit to hit the fan, and Sonic could very well turn out as bad as him, Eggman, Naugus etc. No. He was Evil Sonic, when Ken Penders wrote a one-dimensional character. He became his own character when Ian Flynn wrote him like an actual fucking character, and not a cliche.

How about I repeat this once again?

How about providing some evidence to back up your point, since you've provided nothing to back up anything you've said, while I've taken quotes directly out of the comic itself to show exactly what Scourge's motivations, and entire character is meant to be. 

At the end of the day, Metal Sonic is 'Metal-Sonic', Shadow is 'Dark-Sonic', and Scourge is 'Evil-Sonic'. Their personalities and backstories being developed the way they are only enforces it. 

[MetalSkulkBane]

On 4.07.2016 at 1:02 PM, Sparky said:

At the end of the day, Metal Sonic is 'Metal-Sonic', Shadow is 'Dark-Sonic', and Scourge is 'Evil-Sonic'. Their personalities and backstories being developed the way they are only enforces it. 

Really? Then why Shadow is a military experiment, completely not like Sonic?

Why Metal Sonic doesn't throws one liners like Sonic?

Why Scourge has inferiority complex, not like Sonic?

Those elements made them "less Sonic" so why were they added?

Eggman is evil scientist, Superman is a saint super hero,  Pearl (Steven Universe) is a team mum. Every fictional character can be described with 2-3 words, but most of times that doing them injustice. Those are just archetypes from which real characters arise, with their motivations, fears, quirks and strengths and flaws.

[Kuzu]

Endgame I read many years after it was hyped up to back; I found a lot of issues with it, namely narrative convenience and all that jaz.

[DabigRG]

 

15 hours ago, Shadowlax said:

But to the point about the concept art, that's what scourge is, and why people like him and super boy prime are brilliant in their execution, it shows the worst and makes you appreciate what you got.  There are not above just being liked as dumb edgy things, but they are greater than, scourge made every single person he was in proximity with better after interacting with scourge. Sonic actually thought about who he was, amy was giving rousing speeches to sonic, tails stood up for himself and beat Sonic’s shit in, shadow showed how much of a super bro he was and down for the cause. He made everyone better and shine, by being next to them because he was this pile of shit. That was his homeostasis , they took a one note nothing character, and made him a character by emphasizing that nothing and making everyone look cool. It’s even reflected in their personalities towards scourge, they fucking hate him, because he's shit. Like they know he's the personification of all the memes that have been memed about sonic and they need to remove it.

Enjoy, how scourge is nothing and a joke, and that's how he should be and that's how his character is good.

Actually, thats one the main reasons why I love characters like Scourge, Finitevus, Thrash, and Axel: they represent a certain aspect of other characters' (Sonic, Knuckles, and Eggman) existences, allow them to think about what they stand for, and then force them to develop to accomodate the good traits that can learn by fighting with/against them.

Scourge, in particular, was used to hilarious effect in stories like Hedgehog Havoc because Scourge is such a dick that he can't stop antagonizing people for 5 minutes. 

8 hours ago, Zaysho said:

Yeah, admittedly, Penders's actions have led to some really heavy backlash on pretty much all of his stories, though I think putting that aside, "End Game" is just not a very good story in general. For what was apparently meant to be a last hurrah, they seemed to make up a lot of shit and or ignore some plot points from previous stories (unsurprisingly, the stories Penders DIDN'T write) to make this make sense, as well as introducing new characters and giving them the spotlight (Hershey and Drago in particular), or give more importance to Penders's creations like St. John and allowing him to railroad Sonic despite it should be painfully obvious Sonic WOULDN'T have attempted to murder Sally, especially following the fucking trial he was put under when he was kidnapped and roboticized ("Mecha Madness").

This is something I've been thinking about for a while now. While I definitely understand being frustrated with the guy's recent pyrrhic actions, it does genuinely bother me how it seems every time someone in the entertainment business or public appeal shtick does something that ends up hurting/offending the fans very indirectly, that automatically invalidates everything they've ever done. Stories not aging well is one thing, opinions are opinions, but constantly hearing "Stinkin Penders and his Derivative, Faux-political, Mary-Sue Recolors" gets on the ol' nerves after a while.

 

I've actually got Endgame on my backlog of stories to reread and Ive just got through rereading Endangered Species, so my thoughts on that might be brought up later if it warrants discussion. (This board has been a bit quiet lately.)

 

[PC the Hedgehog]

11 hours ago, Zaysho said:

The more I think about it, Flynn's "Eggman Wars" arc (197-200) is basically him getting a chance to re-do "End Game" without the overcomplicated bullshit or drama, closing the book on another era of the comics, and ushering in a new one with the "Iron Dominion" arc and the eventual lead-up to "Genesis" and beyond. It's too bad his plans got tossed with the lawsuit.

I enjoyed that storyline, but honestly, it didn't feel nearly as status quo-changing as the characters made it out to be. Really, it felt like a typical by-the-numbers "invade Eggman's base" plot with all of the characters acting unusually dramatic about it as if it was an end-all, be-all final battle.

[Sparky]

2 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Really? Then why Shadow is a military experiment, completely not like Sonic?

Why Metal Sonic is doesn't throws one liners like Sonic?

Why Scourge has inferiority complex, not like Sonic?

Those elements made them "less Sonic" so why were they added?

Eggman is evil scientist, Superman is a saint super hero,  Pearl (Steven Universe) is a team mum. Every fictional character can be described with 2-3 words, but most of times that doing them injustice. Those are just archetypes from which real characters arise, with their motivations, fears, quirks and strengths and flaws.

Before I continue, I just want to know how you can argue that Metal Sonic isn't a Metal Sonic, when the very basis of his character is that he is a Metal Sonic. His entire motivation in Heroes boils down to this. 

The purpose of Shadow's character is to be a darker version of Sonic. Him being a weapon of the military, in a weird way, enforces it. The plot of SA2, in terms of Sonic and Shadow, is about how Shadow was artificially created with the intent of being the Ultimate Lifeform, yet here comes Sonic, who looks just like Shadow, and shares the speed, agility, and ability to use Chaos Control. Shadow being created to be the Ultimate Lifeform, yet being the spitting image of Sonic who shares his speed and agility, was a major plotpoint. 

Scourge is an Evil-Sonic, and also an Anti-Sonic to a small extent, but mostly an Evil Sonic, in an Evil Moebius where most of the population lacks morals and stuff, living a life that made Scourge who he is instead of the life that made Sonic who he is. Sonic and Scourge are the same deep, deep down, but their lives and worlds made them who they are now. In a way, the same kind of applies to Shadow, sort of, except he is a Dark-Sonic rather than an evil Sonic. 

Metal Sonic is a robotic metal version of Sonic "loyal" to Eggman. Shadow is a darker version of Sonic, as if someone took Sonic's shadow, as in embodiment of his dark side, and made it a full-fledged living being as a top-secret military weapon. Scourge was an Evil version of Sonic in an evil version of Sonic's World, who tried to fight against the fact that he was "Evil-Sonic", but that kind of motivation only enforces that role, since his entire existence was still focused around Sonic. Comparable to the Flash's villain Professor Zoom, the Reverse-Flash, who had a deep obsessive admiration for the Flash that eventually turned into a deep obsessive hatred due to not being able to actually BE the Flash, so instead he became the REVERSE of everything the Flash was. His entire character is essentially "Reverse-Flash". Metal Sonic's entire character is essentially "Metal-Sonic". Shadow is essentially "Dark-Sonic". Scourge was essentially "Evil-Sonic". It's also worth noting that Mephiles is an "Evil-Shadow", essentially making him "Evil-Dark-Sonic", and that SEGA has essentially been saying that Silver is a derivative of Sonic as well, but in what way isn't clear. 

[Dejimon11]

Well looks like @VEDJ-F was right. Nice job detective.

[Your Vest Friend]

Huh, even Abyss' involvement. I mean, there's only one active pirate group we know of (that isn't stuck in another dimension, sorry Whisker).

Kinda kerfuffled up on the title, but it's still referring to Undina, so...quarter point for that?

[Dr. Detective]

1 hour ago, Dejimon11 said:

Well looks like @VEDJ-F was right. Nice job detective.

Oh my god... my heart... I'm gonna cry and... I think I need an ambulence...

*Checks pulse*

Yeah... yeah I just died...

It's... It's too beautiful...

 

[MetalSkulkBane]

39 minutes ago, Sparky said:

Before I continue, I just want to know how you can argue that Metal Sonic isn't a Metal Sonic, when the very basis of his character is that he is a Metal Sonic. His entire motivation in Heroes boils down to this. 

The purpose of Shadow's character is to be a darker version of Sonic. Him being a weapon of the military, in a weird way, enforces it. The plot of SA2, in terms of Sonic and Shadow, is about how Shadow was artificially created with the intent of being the Ultimate Lifeform, yet here comes Sonic, who looks just like Shadow, and shares the speed, agility, and ability to use Chaos Control. Shadow being created to be the Ultimate Lifeform, yet being the spitting image of Sonic who shares his speed and agility, was a major plotpoint. 

Scourge is an Evil-Sonic, and also an Anti-Sonic to a small extent, but mostly an Evil Sonic, in an Evil Moebius where most of the population lacks morals and stuff, living a life that made Scourge who he is instead of the life that made Sonic who he is. Sonic and Scourge are the same deep, deep down, but their lives and worlds made them who they are now. In a way, the same kind of applies to Shadow, sort of, except he is a Dark-Sonic rather than an evil Sonic. 

Metal Sonic is a robotic metal version of Sonic "loyal" to Eggman. Shadow is a darker version of Sonic, as if someone took Sonic's shadow, as in embodiment of his dark side, and made it a full-fledged living being as a top-secret military weapon. Scourge was an Evil version of Sonic in an evil version of Sonic's World, who tried to fight against the fact that he was "Evil-Sonic", but that kind of motivation only enforces that role, since his entire existence was still focused around Sonic. Comparable to the Flash's villain Professor Zoom, the Reverse-Flash, who had a deep obsessive admiration for the Flash that eventually turned into a deep obsessive hatred due to not being able to actually BE the Flash, so instead he became the REVERSE of everything the Flash was. His entire character is essentially "Reverse-Flash". Metal Sonic's entire character is essentially "Metal-Sonic". Shadow is essentially "Dark-Sonic". Scourge was essentially "Evil-Sonic". It's also worth noting that Mephiles is an "Evil-Shadow", essentially making him "Evil-Dark-Sonic", and that SEGA has essentially been saying that Silver is a derivative of Sonic as well, but in what way isn't clear. 

i think if you re-read my previous post one more time you should understand. I'm not saying that "Shadow isn't dark Sonic" I'm saying that you can't say there isn't anything more to them, that's simplifying who they are.

What kind of character is being "Robotic Sonic" anyway? Metal doesn't have attitude, isn't heroic, never expressed enjoying speed, doesn't eats chili dogs, has no friends, never showed big ego, arguably listens to orders, he's almost opposite of Sonic. If anyone, Shard is "Metallic Sonic".

And his motivation in Heroes boils down to the fact that he believes himself to be Sonic,but clearly isn't. He's pretty much insane in this game, another thing that makes him quite different from Sonic.

It's just my interpretation, but to me Metal Sonic has a huge identity crisis. He was born as a copy, couldn't cope with it, so he came with crazy conclusion that if he destroys Sonic, he will prove to be the original. Obviously it doesn't work that way and deep down he knows that, which is why he's always angry. He hates Sonic for being real, hates Eggman for building him that way, hates himself for being a copy. That makes him insane and dangerous, but also tragic and pretty complex for a "Robotic Sonic".

Again, that's just the way I see him. But assuming it's correct, is it really fair to boil him down to 2 words?

EDIT: Also, Mephiles is not "Evil Shadow", he's his nemesis.. Come one, now you're waaaay simplifying. Mephiles is a god, manipulator, devil of Sonic's Franchise. He looks similarly to Shadow, that's it.

[DabigRG]

39 minutes ago, Sparky said:

Metal Sonic's entire character is essentially "Metal-Sonic". Shadow is essentially "Dark-Sonic". Scourge was essentially "Evil-Sonic". It's also worth noting that Mephiles is an "Evil-Shadow", essentially making him "Evil-Dark-Sonic", and that SEGA has essentially been saying that Silver is a derivative of Sonic as well, but in what way isn't clear. 

Wow. When you put it like that, Mephiles sounds kinda lame. 

I guess you can assume Silver is Light Sonic to Shadow's Dark Sonic. O6 and Rivals 1&2 uses the two as parallels in that they know what is really going on and do whatever it takes to stop it, whereas Sonic just goes after whatever the immediate threat is and is usually ignorant to the big picture.

[Multikaris]

41 minutes ago, Dejimon11 said:

Well looks like @VEDJ-F was right. Nice job detective.

Is that VOID?

[Your Vest Friend]

Nah.

My shadow is a DOLPHIN.

[DabigRG]

Why would Void, a angsty Dreamwalkr with perpetual loneliness, come to the Chaotix?

[RobotnikHolmes]

I reviewed Endgame on my blog. XP The story was pretty bad and had a rather lame plot, but the ways they raised the stakes (except for Sally being "killed") and make the villain really close to success is really gripping, even if only on the first readthrough.

[Shadowlax]

There was an argument here, I deleted it. I don't think continuing this argument is a good expenditure of my time. 

Not everything warrants a response. Particularly this. Take that as you will. 

 

[RobotnikHolmes]

Dies from the amount of arguing

[DabigRG]

I know, right?

Listen, Ryan/Shadowlax, while I appreciate someone actually having a legit serious discussion about preboot characters, you're both kinda stuck in a circle of the same two arguments.

Have either of you listened to the Bumblekast? If not, let me paraphase/quote Ian himself here,: "He's complex in his simplicity, and simple in his complexity."

So, you're both right.

[Zaysho]

2 hours ago, DabigRG said:

This is something I've been thinking about for a while now. While I definitely understand being frustrated with the guy's recent pyrrhic actions, it does genuinely bother me how it seems every time someone in the entertainment business or public appeal shtick does something that ends up hurting/offending the fans very indirectly, that automatically invalidates everything they've ever done. Stories not aging well is one thing, opinions are opinions, but constantly hearing "Stinkin Penders and his Derivative, Faux-political, Mary-Sue Recolors" gets on the ol' nerves after a while.

 

I've actually got Endgame on my backlog of stories to reread and Ive just got through rereading Endangered Species, so my thoughts on that might be brought up later if it warrants discussion. (This board has been a bit quiet lately.)

Oh, I agree. I can't say the lawsuits haven't tainted my perception of certain things involving Pen, because I've done my fair share of reading and talking to people about the comic, that I just don't have a positive view on him in general (I've calmed down considerably, granted, but I still question a lot of things he says and does). That said, I think his work can stand apart from his actions, because, sometimes, Pen just wrote garbage. I'm actually pretty fond of his earlier work with Kanterovich and I also think he had a lot of interesting ideas, but the way he presented things often left a lot to be desired. The fact that the majority of his stories involved introducing another new character, and giving them prominence over the main characters, doesn't help. And, please, do post your thoughts on those stories!

 

4 minutes ago, RobotnikHolmes said:

Dies from the amount of arguing

Yeah, no. Maybe next time propose a new topic of discussion instead of needlessly piling on to an argument you don't care about. Since I know I've told you about this before, have a strike for spamming.

[Nepenthe]

2 minutes ago, DabigRG said:

I know, right?

Zaysho's above warning goes for you too. Nothing about this is contributing to discussion.

[DabigRG]

Oh, I had actually edited in a contributing comment as you replied.

But yes sir.

[Forte-Metallix]

So, to change the subject, what do you think we'll get out of Mega Drive: The Next Level? 

I'm looking forward to seeing my favorite Metal Blur getting a proper reintroduction, unlike the laughable Episode Metal. I'm just wondering if Robotnik will have a new scheme, or if Metal Sonic will just go out on his own, seeking revenge. If this is a tie-in to Sonic 4, maybe we'll get an explanation to what that treasure in Lost Labyrinth was.

[MetalSkulkBane]

And I'm glad that Ryan and Shadowlax had this conversation. thanks to both of them I'm looking on Scourge in a new light. (Of course I completely understand that Shadow quit. Those can be very exhausting and go nowhere. It doesn't mean starting them is a bad idea though).

49 minutes ago, Forte-Metallix said:

So, to change the subject, what do you think we'll get out of Mega Drive: The Next Level? 

I'm looking forward to seeing my favorite Metal Blur getting a proper reintroduction, unlike the laughable Episode Metal. I'm just wondering if Robotnik will have a new scheme, or if Metal Sonic will just go out on his own, seeking revenge. If this is a tie-in to Sonic 4, maybe we'll get an explanation to what that treasure in Lost Labyrinth was.

If my last post combined with my username and avatar didn't gave it away yet, Metal is my favorite Sonic character and I'm looking forward to seeing him. Since reboot he got quite a few appearances, but he never was a focus of a story or a main threat.

I'm trying to keep my hype at bay though. I didn't liked Genesis nor World Collide, Mega Drive might be similar "bland plot cashing on fan-service" story type.