Sonic Frontiers Story Dicussion (Full Spoilers)

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 hour ago, Dr. Mechano said:

It doesn't relate as strongly as it does to SA1, but it does parallel some aspects of it. Especially the whole "Scientist becomes parental figure to beloved (grand)daughter" thing. Eggman even directly compares Sage to Maria and wonders if they were similar.

Ironically enough, in the context of Frontiers, it was Sonic's turn to see a preteen girl die, just like Shadow did.

[Dr. Mechano]

12 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Ironically enough, in the context of Frontiers, it was Sonic's turn to see a preteen girl die, just like Shadow did.

He was largely unfazed by it, though on the Bumblekast Ian mentions that Sonic was going to react more strongly to Sage dying before that got cut.

Though I guess it's a moot point since Eggman put her back together and she's fine now.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

9 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

He was largely unfazed by it, though on the Bumblekast Ian mentions that Sonic was going to react more strongly to Sage dying before that got cut.

Though I guess it's a moot point since Eggman put her back together and she's fine now.

I wonder if Eggman bringing her back was the reason that heavier reaction from Sonic was cut.

Perhaps he assumed that Eggman could bring Sage back like he has done for Metal Sonic on a few occasions?

[Diogenes]

They just botched it. I could believe Sega shot down an excessively emotional reaction, but by doing nothing Sonic just comes off as uncaring.

"That was fun", huh? A child is dead, Sonic. Show some respect.

[Kuzu]

This game is only tangently related to SA2 in the most superficial way possible.

Like the whole Eggman-Sage thing is trying to be Gerald-Maria, but with none of the thr tragedy involved.

 

 

And yea, Sonic's lack of a reaction is even worse. 

[StaticMania]

19 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

"That was fun", huh? A child is dead, Sonic. Show some respect.

This is the Sonic "I" remember, glad he's still in-character.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

“All’s well that ends well, huh?”

They’re all sociopaths. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

3 minutes ago, Whatever the WhoCares said:

“All’s well that ends well, huh?”

They’re all sociopaths. 

Huh. We really did return to the Adventure era, lol.

[Dr. Mechano]

52 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Like the whole Eggman-Sage thing is trying to be Gerald-Maria, but with none of the thr tragedy involved.

That's fair.

Maria was an ill girl whose life was cut even shorter, while Sage is (presumably) an immortal AI that can just be fixed even if she "dies."

Sage kind of echoes the role of both Maria and Shadow in that regard, "dying" in space after helping Super Sonic save the world, then being saved by Eggman afterward. (Though without the apparent memory loss)

[Whatever the WhoCares]

Does anyone else suspect that the next game won’t have Tails, Knuckles, or Amy? I feel like they want to focus on Sonic-only gameplay, and to that end they don’t want Sonic’s friends helping out. So what do they do? Well, this time around they were trapped in limbo, but next time I wonder if they’ll even be within 2,000 miles. 

[MGA_Gamer]

1 minute ago, Whatever the WhoCares said:

Does anyone else suspect that the next game won’t have Tails, Knuckles, or Amy? I feel like they want to focus on Sonic-only gameplay, and to that end they don’t want Sonic’s friends helping out. So what do they do? Well, this time around they were trapped in limbo, but next time I wonder if they’ll even be within 2,000 miles. 

Hopefully they will be back, even if there will be a timeskip between games.

[Sega DogTagz]

I would think they would be back. Their own adventures will no doubt cross paths with Sonic's as the stakes rise and fall with whatever he is up too. If Tails is out and about trying to be a better Hero, then there is simply no chance he doesn't get drawn into whatever world ending threat will crop up in Frontiers 2.

 

They just won't be attached to his hip at the start of the next game is all.

[The Deleter]

The best thing they could do with SAGE is have her "body" and functional purpose gone, but her essence preserved through the ancients' cyberspace like the Koco, so that Eggman has something to hold onto in terms of sentimental value. The logo that shows up on his screen is the exact same glyph that appears when Koco "fulfill their purpose", so it likely is using the same method, and might even be intentional if SAGE never makes any future appearances in mainline games. It gives the most impact to SAGE's sacrifice and Eggman's tragedy, closes out on Frontiers' themes of rememberance, and allows the series to move forwards without actually changing the relationship between Sonic, an AI who sympathises, and Eggman caring for what that AI wants. Essentially allowing SAGE to "live on", but in a very limited sense that only Eggman can take comfort in.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

Not gonna lie, I think it would be worth sacrificing the drama to have Sage stick around. I’d like to see her adopt the Eggman agenda while also not really wanting to kill Sonic and friends. That would make for a relatively complex character. 

[Kuzu]

55 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

That's fair.

Maria was an ill girl whose life was cut even shorter, while Sage is (presumably) an immortal AI that can just be fixed even if she "dies."

Sage kind of echoes the role of both Maria and Shadow in that regard, "dying" in space after helping Super Sonic save the world, then being saved by Eggman afterward. (Though without the apparent memory loss)

Even that kind of falls flat for me because Shadow died as a sort of redemption so to speak; he spent his life seeking revenge and died trying to save the planet. Sage died cuz...well the game needed a sad moment I guess?

 

I'm not trying to shit on the game here, but I feel like a lot of its attempted call-backs missed the point entirely of the originals context. 

[Dr. Mechano]

16 minutes ago, The Deleter said:

The best thing they could do with SAGE is have her "body" and functional purpose gone, but her essence preserved through the ancients' cyberspace like the Koco, so that Eggman has something to hold onto in terms of sentimental value. The logo that shows up on his screen is the exact same glyph that appears when Koco "fulfill their purpose", so it likely is using the same method, and might even be intentional if SAGE never makes any future appearances in mainline games. It gives the most impact to SAGE's sacrifice and Eggman's tragedy, closes out on Frontiers' themes of rememberance, and allows the series to move forwards without actually changing the relationship between Sonic, an AI who sympathises, and Eggman caring for what that AI wants. Essentially allowing SAGE to "live on", but in a very limited sense that only Eggman can take comfort in.

I see it like this: The ending is open-ended enough that Sega can go either way with Sage.

If the fan response was negative, they could say Sage "moved on" or "fulfilled her purpose" like the Koco, and thus won't come back. If the fan response was positive (and boy, it sure seems to be), then they can just say that Eggman fully brought her back and she's able to be a permanent addition to the cast, re-contextualizing the glyph to mean something else in her case.

Given the way the ending was handled and her immediate popularity, I think Sage is probably going to stick around.

[Whatever the WhoCares]

Hard left, I know, but isn’t this game’s prologue the first time we have confirmation that the Echidnas didn’t actually kill those Chao? The animations were so limited back in SA1 that it wasn’t really clear, but now we see that they’re just trampled but ultimately still alive. 

[Kuzu]

I'm on the fence of them bringing Sage back, mostly because of how Sega usually treats characters who have served their purpose past their introduction. So on one hand, it would be a waste of the dynamic they setup with Eggman here if they didn't bring her back, but on the other hand, if she did return, she'll be in a much lesser role than she was in Frontiers unless the next game directly follows up the plot points from here.

Long term storytelling isn't this Franchise's strongest suite to say the least. 

[Dr. Mechano]

6 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

So on one hand, it would be a waste of the dynamic they setup with Eggman here if they didn't bring her back, but on the other hand, if she did return, she'll be in a much lesser role than she was in Frontiers unless the next game directly follows up the plot points from here.

Sure, though I think that's fine.

Returning characters having bit-parts after their introduction - until such a time that the series needs them to play a focal role - is pretty harmless.

As long as they don't overuse new characters in stories where they don't really add anything, I don't see any problem with her sticking around. At the very least, she can become a regular in the sports/kart-racing titles.

[The Deleter]

34 minutes ago, Whatever the WhoCares said:

Not gonna lie, I think it would be worth sacrificing the drama to have Sage stick around. I’d like to see her adopt the Eggman agenda while also not really wanting to kill Sonic and friends. That would make for a relatively complex character. 

Technically we have that niche of Eggman lackey filled already, being Orbot and Cubot. It's just they fill the role of comedy relief and as a result don't dramatically change the dynamic in any meaningful way, save for the few times Sonic manages to get information out of them in the comics or such due to said comedy. Which, in turn, adds to the dynamic rather than undercutting it.

26 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I see it like this: The ending is open-ended enough that Sega can go either way with Sage.

If the fan response was negative, they could say Sage "moved on" or "fulfilled her purpose" like the Koco, and thus won't come back. If the fan response was positive (and boy, it sure seems to be), then they can just say that Eggman fully brought her back and she's able to be a permanent addition to the cast, re-contextualizing the glyph to mean something else in her case.

Given the way the ending was handled and her immediate popularity, I think Sage is probably going to stick around.

It can, and it's exactly why SEGA keeps saying "No, don't get rid of it" with regards to the Warp Topaz, Starline's death, the Deadly Six, etc. I'm talking about what would end up creating the most impact for this game specifically, and as a result the decisions storytellers should make in light of that.

Edit: Wait no @Dr. Mechano, I think you're misunderstanding the point of the Koco/ancients containing their essance in cyberspace. The Koco with regrets "move on" from their bodies, yes, when they reflect on the good memories that they experienced in their lives I guess, but they're still contained in Cyberspace, possibly to repeat it over again if they choose; and the hermit koco actively travels between the two. SAGE will never fully disappear if she's a part of cyberspace; she'll just be on replay for those moments of her life

[StaticMania]

21 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

As long as they don't overuse new characters in stories where they don't really add anything...

Oh, they've already learned to stop doing this...

[Kuzu]

37 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Sure, though I think that's fine.

Returning characters having bit-parts after their introduction - until such a time that the series needs them to play a focal role - is pretty harmless.

As long as they don't overuse new characters in stories where they don't really add anything, I don't see any problem with her sticking around. At the very least, she can become a regular in the sports/kart-racing titles.

Do you honestly trust Sega to not do that?

[Darkvizardberrytan]

52 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

I'm on the fence of them bringing Sage back, mostly because of how Sega usually treats characters who have served their purpose past their introduction. So on one hand, it would be a waste of the dynamic they setup with Eggman here if they didn't bring her back, but on the other hand, if she did return, she'll be in a much lesser role than she was in Frontiers unless the next game directly follows up the plot points from here.

Long term storytelling isn't this Franchise's strongest suite to say the least. 

I mean if anything they can add her to the comics now hopefully and future games. Though I am sure her outfit will be modified a little, the glitch effect was mostly from the island. She could even do eggman colors. Having a daughter fight along with him is no worse that cubot and orbot. At worse she would simply not be as ready to strangle or even comfront sonic as say Metal is at any given time.

[Dr. Mechano]

8 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Do you honestly trust Sega to not do that?

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now, in light of hiring Ian Flynn to write what I thought was a pretty good story.

Though given the choice between seeing too much of Sage and her never appearing again, I'd go with the former, narrative integrity be damned. I just like her too much.

...Okay, I get it, Shadow fans in the 2000s. I understand now.

[Kuzu]

20 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I'll give them the benefit of the doubt for now, in light of hiring Ian Flynn to write what I thought was a pretty good story.

Though given the choice between seeing too much of Sage and her never appearing again, I'd go with the former, narrative integrity be damned. I just like her too much.

...Okay, I get it, Shadow fans in the 2000s. I understand now.

I better not ever hear you criticize Shadow or his fanbase ever again.