Sonic Frontiers Story Dicussion (Full Spoilers)

[Zoomzeta]

8 hours ago, Austroid said:

Wall of text incoming:

My main beef with Eggman creating/viewing Sage as his daughter, is that its supposed to be in the main canon of the series. If it took place in the shows or comics like with Mecha "M" Robotnik in Archie, (who was honestly pretty cool) or the puppet girl in IDW, then I'd be okay with it because its more of an AU-type thing. It just feels so out of left field to have the big bad of the franchise get all soft and want a family when Forces story happened not long ago, and the rest of the series before that leaves no evidence to the contrary. Yes, he looked up to his grandfather and such; but he still ultimately wants to enslave/conquer the world. Putting in "oh, and he also has a daughter whom he loves very much" just doesn't feel right, and sounds more fan-fictiony than anything.

Also regarding Eggman's overall tone in the game: I've seen people say he's sounds more like a scientist and such with the Egg Memos. Honestly he comes across more tired than anything; which made me kinda sad. Not sure if that was due to Mike Pollock's direction or just how he sounds lately. That plus the addition of Sage almost feels like they want to slowly move Eggman away from the spotlight as the main villain in the future. (I know it'd never happen, but that's kinda where my mind wandered.)

Her name is Belle by the way. 

[Kuzu]

I just feel like its a little weird for the story to frame Sonic as a positive influence on others, including Sage herself, but then not contrast that with the opposite side in Eggman. 

Like, Sage's whole thing is that she's envious of the positive relationships Sonic has in his life and desires that for herself from Eggman. So the implication is that Eggman wasn't providing that, but that clearly isn't the case because there's no point where Eggman treats Sage particularly badly before he starts being affectionate towards her. And the game frames her interactions with Eggman already as something positive, otherwise there wouldn't be a point in having things like that sappy montage sequence with the insert song. So what exactly is Sage supposed to be envious about if she already had what felt she was lacking? 

It's like there's a draft of the story that got cut that was supposed to show a more negative side Sage and Eggman's relationship to contrast Sonic's positive ones with his friends but we never see it. So the whole thing just comes off as flaccid. If the game leaned into Eggman's negative traits more, only for him to regret his treatment of her when she sacrifices herself, then the ending would have hit the right emotional beats in my eyes.

Along with Sonic actually giving a damn about her "death" in some way or form.  

[Zoomzeta]

...I'm not sure where this conversation is ultimately going with Eggman. In this type of franchise, he's always going to be the primary villain, if not the catalyst for major events happening in these games (With the occasional off-times he's not the primary antagonist). As far as I am concerned, SAGE's existence and her relationship with the madman wouldn't change that at the end of the day. 

[The Deleter]

SAGE has already stepped over the line from considering Sonic a tool for alliance's sake, to actually having feelings for his wellbeing. Saying "it's not fair" to Sonic becoming fully cybercorrupted; the emotional breakdown while she realizes she no longer see's Sonic and Co as enemies; SAGE blinking blue and looking away when she states she's only working with Sonic to "ensure survival", hinting at an emotional dishonesty ala Shadow; the reverence she holds when stating "Farewell, hero"; becoming embarrassed when Sonic refers to how long it took him to win her over; being legitimately happy when Sonic and Eggman manage to get along after bantering; etc. All alongside the minor scenes where she does view him in a heroic light, such as when she blinks blue after he tells her he'll turn her dispair into hope.

The problem with SAGE, compared to creations like Metal, is that Eggman as a villain hinges on his selfishness and egotism overriding whatever more human, likable traits he does feature. He can have pride and care for his creations, but the second they want something that is in the face of his own ideals and goals, his pride and ego overbears on them. That doesn't happen with SAGE in the way Starline or Orbot would be dismissed. As soon as SAGE responds to his "I don't want to" with an emphatic "Please?!?" with puppy dog eyes, he immediately folds. Because SAGE is different. By considering her a daughter rather than a creation, he actually cares about what she thinks, rather than believing it should be the other way around.

But by toying with that aspect of a relationship with him, it ultimately touches on what Eggman needs to fix himself. Putting the needs and desires of others before his own, and learning to value those individuals. Rather than building robots and theme parks for his own ambitions, realizing that doing so for others is just as, if not more rewarding, alongside further reform that would lead to good things for the world and his own relationship with it.

But you can't have that.

By saying "It doesn't matter, she can be a passive entity locked in Eggman's bases until she interacts with Sonic and goes through the standoffish shtick until finally giving him some information useful to him", that's basically an admission that she does not fit within the expected framework for the series, and is ultimately an attempt to maintain said status quo while keeping her influence on the story to a mininmum, in the same way Orbot and Cubot do but with far less flexibility and freedom. Rather than allowing her impact on both Eggman and Sonic be as significant as possible in service of her character, the goal is now to walk that back to the point it is acceptable, or else face the consequences of developing the characters far beyond what they should serve for the series.

[Dr. Mechano]

19 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

So what exactly is Sage supposed to be envious about if she already had what felt she was lacking?

Eggman didn't (openly) treat her as his daughter at that point, but as his underling. Even if he was kind to her, he still didn't acknowledge Sage as his daughter until the very end, outside of his private Egg Memos, which we can assume Sage didn't have access to. (Big and Sonic did though!)

Even "Be careful... dear daughter..." was only said quietly and out of earshot once Sage left. It wasn't until the very end, when Eggman says "That's my girl" that he acknowledges Sage as a daughter to her face. She finally gets what she wants: Family, and not just a boss-underling relationship.

[Kuzu]

4 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Eggman didn't (openly) treat her as his daughter at that point, but as his underling. Even if he was kind to her, he still didn't acknowledge Sage as his daughter until the very end, outside of his private Egg Memos, which we can assume Sage didn't have access to. (Big and Sonic did though!)

Even "Be careful... dear daughter..." was only said quietly and out of earshot once Sage left. It wasn't until the very end, when Eggman says "That's my girl" that he acknowledges Sage as a daughter to her face. She finally gets what she wants: Family, and not just a boss-underling relationship.

But the point stands, he never mistreated her in the same way he does to literally any one else. He literally says he's proud of her, something Eggman rarely says even when his minions do good.

Even Sage starts defying him, he never lashes out at her or anything. And we all know how little Eggman tolerates insubordination.

 

If the audience was supposed to see their relationship in a negative light before the ending then it sure as hell did a terrible job conveying it.

[Dr. Mechano]

4 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

If the audience was supposed to see their relationship in a negative light before the ending then it sure as hell did a terrible job conveying it.

Less a "negative" light, and more "not as positive as it could be."

Eggman is amicable to Sage, sure, but he's not really providing the "family" dynamic she wants - at least not initially. He grows to love her over time, and this provides Sage with the family she wanted.

Your current situation doesn't have to be awful to want something better.

Bear in mind, too, that Eggman may very well have already started to view Sage as a daughter by the time he tells her he's proud of her, which is fairly late into the game. It's just that he doesn't acknowledge her openly as his daughter (as in, outside of his private voice logs) until the very end, so Sage wouldn't necessarily know he also wanted the same family dynamic she did at that point.

[The Deleter]

29 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Along with Sonic actually giving a damn about her "death" in some way or form.  

Btw I wanted to touch on this; Ian does seem to be aware of a version of the game content where this was not out of the question:

 

[Kuzu]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Less a "negative" light, and more "not as positive as it could be."

Eggman is amicable to Sage, sure, but he's not really providing the "family" dynamic she wants - at least not initially. He grows to love her over time, and this provides Sage with the family she wanted.

Your current situation doesn't have to be awful to want something better.

Bear in mind, too, that Eggman may very well have already started to view Sage as a daughter by the time he tells her he's proud of her, which is fairly late into the game. It's just that he doesn't acknowledge her openly as his daughter (as in, outside of his private voice logs) until the very end, so Sage wouldn't necessarily know he also wanted the same family dynamic she did at that point.

That sounds nowhere near as interesting of a conflict though, especially when most of the game hinges on that dynamic to the point of being the focus of the first ending theme.

It feels half-assed like the writers wanted all of the emotional beats, but without any of the work put in to deserve them.

There's a reason many people simply don't buy into the dynamic  no matter how much the game tries to sell it.

[Dr. Mechano]

8 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

That sounds nowhere near as interesting of a conflict though, especially when most of the game hinges on that dynamic to the point of being the focus of the first ending theme.

It feels half-assed like the writers wanted all of the emotional beats, but without any of the work put in to deserve them.

There's a reason many people simply don't buy into the dynamic  no matter how much the game tries to sell it.

The issue here is that, this was meant to be an arc for both Sage and Eggman. They were both meant to develop emotionally in this story.

Were it only Sage that needed to be the focal point of the conflict, then sure, her leaving Eggman and finding her family among the heroes would have served the story just fine. But as Kishimoto said, they wanted to flesh Eggman himself out in this story too, and I can't see a version of the "Another creation betrayed me" story that influences Eggman's character in any meaningful way.

I can agree that the story, as it stands, was rushed. The relationship could have and should have had more time to develop on-screen. Many aspects that were consigned to the Egg Memos would have been better implemented as actual cutscenes. In an ideal version of this game, a lot of the way this story was executed would have gone differently.

But at a base conceptual level, I think the overall premise needed to be this way, since the intent from the beginning was to develop Eggman and Sage, not just Sage alone.

[Kuzu]

2 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

The issue here is that, this was meant to be an arc for both Sage and Eggman. They were both meant to develop emotionally in this story.

Were it only Sage that needed to be the focal point of the conflict, then sure, her leaving Eggman and finding her family among the heroes would have served the story just fine. But as Kishimoto said, they wanted to flesh Eggman himself out in this story too, and I can't see a version of the "Another creation betrayed me" story that influences Eggman's character in any meaningful way.

I can agree that the story, as it stands, was rushed. The relationship could have and should have had more time to develop on-screen. Many aspects that were consigned to the Egg Memos would have been better implemented as actual cutscenes. In an ideal version of this game, a lot of the way this story was executed would have gone differently.

But at a base conceptual level, I think the overall premise needed to be this way, since the intent from the beginning was to develop Eggman and Sage, not just Sage alone.

I'm not judging it on a conceptual level, I'm judging what we got.

If you really wanted to flesh out Eggman, I feel him realizing his selfish and egotistical behavior costed him one of his few positive relationships is a much better direction than him just suddenly developing parental feelings out of the blue.

One builds on established character traits, the other does not.

Its the same way I feel about Knuckles just becoming an army General out of the blue. Its a character trait that just comes out of nowhere that the audience has to take at face value.

I'm not saying these characters can't develop these traits but you need to build them up.

And even then, as pointed out, the fundamental nature of the series makes it that Eggman can't change in a way that compromises his primary villainous traits, less he eventually loses his villain status and that sounds extremely unlikely. 

[Darkvizardberrytan]

30 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

But the point stands, he never mistreated her in the same way he does to literally any one else. He literally says he's proud of her, something Eggman rarely says even when his minions do good.

Even Sage starts defying him, he never lashes out at her or anything. And we all know how little Eggman tolerates insubordination.

If the audience was supposed to see their relationship in a negative light before the ending then it sure as hell did a terrible job conveying it.

I mean he literally ask Metal Sonic if he punched Sonic and when metal gives a thumbs up what does he say. atta boy (or thats my boy) both interchangeable honestly. I thank Ian cause that is how he writes eggman. He knows he is evil but at the same time still has a (little) human side to him again in the comics when Sonic nearly convinces him people can still use his tools but in good ways and he considers it before brushing it off. Eggman is not a simple Nah he needs to be evil and not have conflicting views villains every now and again. If you want that we got seporoth.  in his caring of others even if he buries it down. Just now he has a daughter that accepts him at his evil self rather than Mr tinker

[Zoomzeta]

47 minutes ago, Zoomzeta said:

...I'm not sure where this conversation is ultimately going with Eggman. In this type of franchise, he's always going to be the primary villain, if not the catalyst for major events happening in these games (With the occasional off-times he's not the primary antagonist). As far as I am concerned, SAGE's existence and her relationship with the madman wouldn't change that at the end of the day. 

My point still stands I guess. 

[Kuzu]

26 minutes ago, Darkvizardberrytan said:

I mean he literally ask Metal Sonic if he punched Sonic and when metal gives a thumbs up what does he say. atta boy (or thats my boy) both interchangeable honestly. I thank Ian cause that is how he writes eggman. He knows he is evil but at the same time still has a (little) human side to him again in the comics when Sonic nearly convinces him people can still use his tools but in good ways and he considers it before brushing it off. Eggman is not a simple Nah he needs to be evil and not have conflicting views villains every now and again. If you want that we got seporoth.  in his caring of others even if he buries it down. Just now he has a daughter that accepts him at his evil self rather than Mr tinker

In the middle of an apocalypse that he started....

[Iko]

The allusion at every character separating from Sonic and going alone for a while is only so that they can make them say "long time no see" again in the next game when they meet Sonic again.

not seriously, but it would be funny.

Regardless, I'm neutral about Eggman being a dad, and it can even be interesting if done well... though I'm more concerned about Sage's personality honestly... she's not really evil, I'm not sure if she would do all the bad things her "father" tells her to do. There's the possibility that she will block Eggman from doing stuff that's too evil (limiting the plots of the future games), or that she will be portrayed out of character as a full evil character in the next game (maybe with the excuse of her being reprogrammed or something, but at that point you remove what was interesting of the character in the first place and transform her into another Metal Sonic/Infinite).

[Kuzu]

19 hours ago, The Deleter said:

SAGE has already stepped over the line from considering Sonic a tool for alliance's sake, to actually having feelings for his wellbeing. Saying "it's not fair" to Sonic becoming fully cybercorrupted; the emotional breakdown while she realizes she no longer see's Sonic and Co as enemies; SAGE blinking blue and looking away when she states she's only working with Sonic to "ensure survival", hinting at an emotional dishonesty ala Shadow; the reverence she holds when stating "Farewell, hero"; becoming embarrassed when Sonic refers to how long it took him to win her over; being legitimately happy when Sonic and Eggman manage to get along after bantering; etc. All alongside the minor scenes where she does view him in a heroic light, such as when she blinks blue after he tells her he'll turn her dispair into hope.

The problem with SAGE, compared to creations like Metal, is that Eggman as a villain hinges on his selfishness and egotism overriding whatever more human, likable traits he does feature. He can have pride and care for his creations, but the second they want something that is in the face of his own ideals and goals, his pride and ego overbears on them. That doesn't happen with SAGE in the way Starline or Orbot would be dismissed. As soon as SAGE responds to his "I don't want to" with an emphatic "Please?!?" with puppy dog eyes, he immediately folds. Because SAGE is different. By considering her a daughter rather than a creation, he actually cares about what she thinks, rather than believing it should be the other way around.

But by toying with that aspect of a relationship with him, it ultimately touches on what Eggman needs to fix himself. Putting the needs and desires of others before his own, and learning to value those individuals. Rather than building robots and theme parks for his own ambitions, realizing that doing so for others is just as, if not more rewarding, alongside further reform that would lead to good things for the world and his own relationship with it.

But you can't have that.

By saying "It doesn't matter, she can be a passive entity locked in Eggman's bases until she interacts with Sonic and goes through the standoffish shtick until finally giving him some information useful to him", that's basically an admission that she does not fit within the expected framework for the series, and is ultimately an attempt to maintain said status quo while keeping her influence on the story to a mininmum, in the same way Orbot and Cubot do but with far less flexibility and freedom. Rather than allowing her impact on both Eggman and Sonic be as significant as possible in service of her character, the goal is now to walk that back to the point it is acceptable, or else face the consequences of developing the characters far beyond what they should serve for the series.

Addressing this, but this is kind of a fundamental issue with a lot of characters in this series.

Past their introduction, all of these characters just kind of fall by the wayside into the status quo and can never affect anything in the central Sonic vs. Eggman dynamic, as doing so would force the series to develop past said status quo.

Its why I'm iffy on this game even addressing things like that, because its setting up an expectation that I don't think it can meet.

Its promising that these characters are going to be going their own journeys of self discovery and change in significant ways.

And I just have trouble believing Sega will commit to significantly altering these characters in a way that disrupts the status quo.

 

Its kind of like when they had Tails have a whole arc in Sonic Adventure and then just backtracked on it in Heroes because of course they're not gonna separate the sidekick from the hero on a permanent basis.

 

So...we'll where that goes.

[Sega DogTagz]

2 hours ago, Iko said:

Though I'm more concerned about Sage's personality honestly... she's not really evil, I'm not sure if she would do all the bad things her "father" tells her to do. There's the possibility that she will block Eggman from doing stuff that's too evil (limiting the plots of the future games), or that she will be portrayed out of character as a full evil character in the next game (maybe with the excuse of her being reprogrammed or something, but at that point you remove what was interesting of the character in the first place and transform her into another Metal Sonic/Infinite).

 

What is there to be concerned about? 

There is nothing in Frontiers that suggests she would have any problem with Eggmans evil ambitions or that she would balk at the doctor asking her to do something morally ambiguous. 

If fact, quite the opposite as she had no issue standing in Sonics way knowing he was only trying to save his friends and even sought to kill him on multiple occasions via the Titans and by her own hand on Ares. 

She jokes about Sonics incompetence in the Egg Memos. She uses lies of omissions repeatedly to accomplish her goal to the best of her abilities. 

Clearly she is more than willing to do bad things when they are deemed necessary to the mission. 

She's "not really evil" doesn't limit her core functions to keeping the Doctor safe and advancing his agenda. She doesn't need to be reprogrammed. She is still 100 percent loyal. Might be up to 110 now that Eggmans affection is more out in the open.

She'll literally die to keep him safe. If Eggman tells her to hack the GUN servers, she's gonna do that too. 

 

[Dr. Mechano]

Right, as others have pointed out, Sage isn't particularly saddened disturbed when Sonic "dies" of cyber-corruption. She's more concerned with getting Eggman back into cyberspace to keep him safe.

I think Sage grows to respect Sonic, and might even feel some fondness for him. But I think as part of the Eggman Empire, she isn't particularly troubled by Eggman's goal to ultimately defeat him.

[caitash]

Re: Tails, is he even gonna be classed as ‘the sidekick’ anymore? In Frontiers Sonic referred to him as ‘lil’/little bro’ which feels a bit sidekick-y right up until the point Tails said he planned to go off alone for a while to grow into his potential. Immediately after that moment, and for the rest of the game, Sonic made a conscious effort to refer to him as ‘Partner’ instead of little bro. And while I haven’t looked at the Japanese script yet I don’t think Sonic Team are THAT unaware of what goes on in the English script to claim ignorance of something like that. Right? (Right? …….Right? I feel like there’s a meme to be had here) I’m really curious if and how they’re gonna commit to that going forward. 
 

The Frontiers story is really interesting in that it made promises to change the status quo by the end. Big question is by how much, and how permenant, or as already mentioned is this is all just a big ploy to bring back the “Long time no see!” for the first game that follows it.

[Zoomzeta]

2 hours ago, caitash said:

Re: Tails, is he even gonna be classed as ‘the sidekick’ anymore? In Frontiers Sonic referred to him as ‘lil’/little bro’ which feels a bit sidekick-y right up until the point Tails said he planned to go off alone for a while to grow into his potential. Immediately after that moment, and for the rest of the game, Sonic made a conscious effort to refer to him as ‘Partner’ instead of little bro. And while I haven’t looked at the Japanese script yet I don’t think Sonic Team are THAT unaware of what goes on in the English script to claim ignorance of something like that. Right? (Right? …….Right? I feel like there’s a meme to be had here) I’m really curious if and how they’re gonna commit to that going forward. 
 

The Frontiers story is really interesting in that it made promises to change the status quo by the end. Big question is by how much, and how permenant, or as already mentioned is this is all just a big ploy to bring back the “Long time no see!” for the first game that follows it.

Dude, I don't know how to answer that question. We're just going to have to wait and see. 

[Razule]

Tails' arc felt more like it was re-establishing what his post-SA2 status quo is supposed to be after Lost World and Forces messed with his character. Personally I never really had a problem with Tails being with Sonic in the post-Unleashed games, because.. they're best friends, it gives Sonic someone to speak to, and the alternative is him not being there at all unless they start a Tails spin-off. 

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

3 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Right, as others have pointed out, Sage isn't particularly saddened disturbed when Sonic "dies" of cyber-corruption. She's more concerned with getting Eggman back into cyberspace to keep him safe.

I think Sage grows to respect Sonic, and might even feel some fondness for him. But I think as part of the Eggman Empire, she isn't particularly troubled by Eggman's goal to ultimately defeat him.

I could see her respecting Sonic as something of a respectful rival. She might be somewhat put off by his demise, but she likely wouldn't let her respect for him Cloud her judgment or appreciation of her father.

[StaticMania]

10 minutes ago, Razule said:

...and the alternative is him not being there at all unless they start a Tails spin-off. 

The ideal alternative would be that Sonic would interact with different members of the cast...and lets say that even in a situation like Adventure, Tails would be able to carry a whole story by himself while being the lead.

[MGA_Gamer]

2 hours ago, Razule said:

Tails' arc felt more like it was re-establishing what his post-SA2 status quo is supposed to be after Lost World and Forces messed with his character. Personally I never really had a problem with Tails being with Sonic in the post-Unleashed games, because.. they're best friends, it gives Sonic someone to speak to, and the alternative is him not being there at all unless they start a Tails spin-off. 

Well, I've been watching Frontiers videos on YouTube, and many users in the comments are speculating that Tails going off on his own could be foreshadowing a Tails spin-off. This would also fit what Izuka has said recently about wanting to make more spin-off games in-between "Mainline" Sonic titles: Iizuka Open to Working With Third Parties to Reboot Sonic Spinoff Game Development - The Sonic Stadium

I can see this as a Win-Win, Tails gets to spend some time away from Sonic and grow as a hero on his own (and maybe meet some new friends/foes on the way), while at the same time getting the spotlight all to himself in his own adventure, something that's been sorely lacking for the best part of three decades (30th anniversary comic aside).

[Kuzu]

My first thought is how much can these characters carry their own stories given how tied to Sonic they are. Knuckles is fine given his connection to the central lore of the series, but Tails & Amy are a bit iffy given just how closely tied to Sonic their characters are. 

Tails only had a single arc as the central focus without Sonic iirc in the Archie comics, while Amy always had to share the spotlight with someone else (Cream, Blaze, Team Dark, The Hooligans, and the Babylon Rogues in TTT. Blaze, Cream and Marine in PPP. And Knuckes, and Team Dark in Shattered. Even in IDW with Trial by Fire, it's more focused on developing Tangle, Belle and Jewel's characters than Amy's)

So I'm curious on how they plan on developing them without Sonic around to foster it.