Sonic Frontiers Story Dicussion (Full Spoilers)

[StaticMania]

I feel like Amy is still too simple to carry a story on her own.

She could just be the female Sonic, seeing the good in people and being proactive in making positive changes in people's lives...

That's not a very "Sonic Game-y" type of story though, Sonic games have had this type of story...it was kind of carried out through in game dialogue and/or the story being entirely focused on Sonic.

If Amy were to get her own game, the possibility is there.

[Iko]

6 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

What is there to be concerned about? 

There is nothing in Frontiers that suggests she would have any problem with Eggmans evil ambitions or that she would balk at the doctor asking her to do something morally ambiguous. 

If fact, quite the opposite as she had no issue standing in Sonics way knowing he was only trying to save his friends and even sought to kill him on multiple occasions via the Titans and by her own hand on Ares. 

She jokes about Sonics incompetence in the Egg Memos. She uses lies of omissions repeatedly to accomplish her goal to the best of her abilities. 

Clearly she is more than willing to do bad things when they are deemed necessary to the mission. 

She's "not really evil" doesn't limit her core functions to keeping the Doctor safe and advancing his agenda. She doesn't need to be reprogrammed. She is still 100 percent loyal. Might be up to 110 now that Eggmans affection is more out in the open.

She'll literally die to keep him safe. If Eggman tells her to hack the GUN servers, she's gonna do that too. 

Maybe at the beginning of the game... at the end she changes, learns more about emotions and becomes fond of Sonic and his friends, wanting to protect them as well (in fact, she never wanted to kill Sonic, she only tried to scare him so that he would leave the island).

Sage would hack the GUN servers no problem, but I'm not sure if she would be ok with transforming every creature on the planet into a brainless zombie (Metal Virus, IDW) or absorbing the energy of the whole planet making every living being die in the process (Lost World). She's loyal, but she doens't always agree with Eggman and already (succesfully) tried to persuade him once.

Maybe she would obey to Eggman and do the stuff, but she would also suffer a lot if forced to do something so cruel, just like she already suffered when watching Sonic self-destroying to help his friends.

My concern is that if Sage becomes a major recurring character, you can't have a story like that anymore without having to face Sage's morality every time, and while it's nice to have one game or two focusing on Sage's personality, having her in the way every time I think would make the stories a bit repetitive and more complex than needed for no reason.

You can always make her a cold and heartless character out of nowhere in the next game, but that wouldn't be Sage anymore IMO.

I don't dislike Sage, I quite liked her story and development, it's just that I'm not sure if the series can stay the same with her around.

[caitash]

I’m not convinced we’re getting the sort of third party spin-offs that would cover the supporting cast after the end of Frontiers (would I love it? Highly likely. But I’m not holding my breath for anything). My question was more just musing out loud, I know none of us have any of the answers yet as it’s way too soon. But it’s interesting still to hear other people’s takes and how they interpreted the same content maybe in different ways. I suppose the thing that’s most intriguing is that the characters at the end of Frontiers comes after Iizuka (I think it was him) said something along the lines of Frontiers being the foundation of the next era of Sonic. Whether he meant that in terms of gameplay, or in terms of character changes, or maybe both. Wish we could get a little insight as to how things will be different (if they are at all) in this new era but it’s quite likely that Sonic Team themselves either haven’t A. got it set in stone or B. got the green light yet from Sega to go through with whatever plans they may have provisionally made.

[Kuzu]

54 minutes ago, Iko said:

Maybe at the beginning of the game... at the end she changes, learns more about emotions and becomes fond of Sonic and his friends, wanting to protect them as well (in fact, she never wanted to kill Sonic, she only tried to scare him so that he would leave the island).

Sage would hack the GUN servers no problem, but I'm not sure if she would be ok with transforming every creature on the planet into a brainless zombie (Metal Virus, IDW) or absorbing the energy of the whole planet making every living being die in the process (Lost World). She's loyal, but she doens't always agree with Eggman and already (succesfully) tried to persuade him once.

Maybe she would obey to Eggman and do the stuff, but she would also suffer a lot if forced to do something so cruel, just like she already suffered when watching Sonic self-destroying to help his friends.

My concern is that if Sage becomes a major recurring character, you can't have a story like that anymore without having to face Sage's morality every time, and while it's nice to have one game or two focusing on Sage's personality, having her in the way every time I think would make the stories a bit repetitive and more complex than needed for no reason.

You can always make her a cold and heartless character out of nowhere in the next game, but that wouldn't be Sage anymore IMO.

I don't dislike Sage, I quite liked her story and development, it's just that I'm not sure if the series can stay the same with her around.

They'll just do what was mentioned by The Deleter; downplay her role and just not focus on her that much.

 

I've been rather pessimistic and negative about Sage, but I'll extend an olive branch here. If Eggman's plans are more of the Saturday Morning Cartoon variety and overall causes less damage, I can see Sage still loyally serving him without affecting her morality too much.

They already went out of their way of saying Eggman has never killed anyone (which is BS but let's put that aside) so its clear that Sega are softening him up a bit to facilitate the humane direction he's going in.

The only downside is that it means Eggman's plans can only go but so far without subverting said humane direction, but they gave him a Bowser Jr, you may as well just commit and turn him into Bowser outright.

[Sega DogTagz]

2 hours ago, Iko said:

Maybe at the beginning of the game... at the end she changes, learns more about emotions and becomes fond of Sonic and his friends, wanting to protect them as well

I think your projecting her affections for Sonic at the end of the game as a judgment onto her potential morality. That's a false correlation that isn't supported by anything in the story.

 

Not only can the two feelings exist alongside each other (Sage can harbor a fondness for Sonic and having a family while also being capable of doing bad things) but her actions during the game blatantly show that she is willing to lie, kill and subterfuge her way to her goals. All Bad Guy fodder.

 

 

2 hours ago, Iko said:

(in fact, she never wanted to kill Sonic, she only tried to scare him so that he would leave the island).

 

You misremember. While she did make several motions to ward or scare him away, there were unmistakably attempts on his life as well. 

 

 

Kronos Island first encounter w/ Giganto

"If we are Fortunate it will Destroy You"

Activating Giganto was not a scare tactic. It was meant to kill

 

 

Ares Island Cut-scene with Knuckles

"No! No Discourse, No Bartering, Only Elimination!"

The word elimination pretty clearly outlines her intent. She even followed it up with an attack. That was an attempt on his life.

 

To say nothing of sic-ing Wyvern and Knight on him on top of that. Girl was throwing kill shots knowing full well the odds of Sonic surviving such fights were not in his favor. She was never bloodlusted, as shown by her having no desire to double tap the body after Giganto threw Sonic, but to say that she never wanted to Kill Sonic is wildly inaccurate.

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Iko said:

Sage would hack the GUN servers no problem, but I'm not sure if she would be ok with transforming every creature on the planet into a brainless zombie (Metal Virus, IDW) or absorbing the energy of the whole planet making every living being die in the process (Lost World). She's loyal, but she doens't always agree with Eggman and already (succesfully) tried to persuade him once.

 

Sage never tried to persuade Eggman to not be evil, just to put aside his Ego for a moment to open the door to a collaboration with Sonic - which just so happened to be the best chance for his own survival. Her prime function was to keep him safe and the best way, shoot, the only way that could be accomplished was by enlisting Sonic's help.

 

That in no way, shape or form suggests that she would suddenly object to Eggmans other dealings in less dire circumstances. And again, like before, there is evidence to support that. Via her dialog, we know Sage is aware of Eggman's past exploits.

She specifically stated that she had reviewed his entire campaign history. She knew about the ARK. She knew about Neo-Metal and so on. There is no way she could have downloaded all that intel, and not also be privy to the horrible things Eggman has done throughout the years. She would have seen him shoot a nuke at Station Sq. She would have seen his bunnies-to-badniks engine. And yet, Sage never hesitates in her adoration of him, or her mission to protect him. She never once tries to correct that behavior or shame him for doing any of those things in the past.

Furthermore, when Eggman brings up the idea of integrating her into the EggNet, and putting her in direct charge of all his plans and robots and infrastructure - Sage is more than okay with that. Again, I must stress that she is fully aware of what the Doctor is, what he has done, and what he will plan to do in the future. And she "Looks Forward to" embracing that integration and the family that goes with it. No hesitation. No preconditions.

 

2 hours ago, Iko said:

Maybe she would obey to Eggman and do the stuff, but she would also suffer a lot if forced to do something so cruel, just like she already suffered when watching Sonic self-destroying to help his friends.

 

Okay, so she's not a monster. You can feel empathy and still be a bad guy.

 

2 hours ago, Iko said:

My concern is that if Sage becomes a major recurring character, you can't have a story like that anymore without having to face Sage's morality every time, and while it's nice to have one game or two focusing on Sage's personality, having her in the way every time I think would make the stories a bit repetitive and more complex than needed for no reason.

You can always make her a cold and heartless character out of nowhere in the next game, but that wouldn't be Sage anymore IMO.

I don't dislike Sage, I quite liked her story and development, it's just that I'm not sure if the series can stay the same with her around.

 

You don't need to go off the deep end to have her be cold and heartless. I don't think anyone is asking or expecting that. In fact, quite the opposite as its her potential fondness for Sonic that makes her potential deployments against him all the more interesting.

 

But the idea that she can't fill in the function as Eggman's point of the spear is way off base. She wants to help him and she wants to be part of his family. She will need to find a balance of doing that while also treating Sonic as something of a friend - but him being a bad guy isn't the deal breaker you are making it out to be.

[Dr. Mechano]

2 hours ago, Iko said:

or absorbing the energy of the whole planet making every living being die in the process (Lost World).

You're misremembering the plot of Lost World. Eggman didn't want to do that either. The Zeti did, not Eggman.

Eggman's plan was just to borrow a little energy to power his machine, carefully shutting it off so as not to take too much. The Zeti then hijacked his plans and tried to drain the entire world's energy with the express purpose of killing everything on Earth.

When Eggman does shut the machine down, he even says "Pity about the damage done down there, but there's still enough left for me to conquer." So he clearly isn't happy about the damage that's already been done, and would have preferred it not happened.

[Kuzu]

Are we just gonna gloss over the fact that he clearly didn't care about the world being drained and still planned on conquering it or.....?

[Dr. Mechano]

4 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Are we just gonna gloss over the fact that he clearly didn't care about the world being drained and still planned on conquering it or.....?

He cared, just not enough that he wasn't still going to conquer it.

Either way, that's still on Zavok, not Eggman. (Yeah yeah, he messed with Zavok in the first place, but he still didn't anticipate the world being drained)

[Diogenes]

Can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.

[Sega DogTagz]

5 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Are we just gonna gloss over the fact that he clearly didn't care about the world being drained and still planned on conquering it or.....?

PITY

 

noun

noun: pity

1. 1.

   the feeling of sorrow and compassion caused by the suffering and misfortunes of others.

 

[StaticMania]

Eggman's petty enough to accept a world where there are pretty much no resources left...

He could've reversed it, or actually tried to reverse it...but chose not to.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

15 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Are we just gonna gloss over the fact that he clearly didn't care about the world being drained and still planned on conquering it or.....?

Keep in mind, he cared enough that he made a it a point not to overdo it with the energy sucking device, and that was on Lost Hex before the Zeti screwed things over. His rationale was likely, conquer the world and then fix things.

[WanderingBleats]

Just now, StaticMania said:

Eggman's petty enough to accept a world where there are pretty much no resources left...

He could've reversed it, or actually tried to reverse it...but chose not to.

He literally couldn't. That was part of the plot. Tails literally said the words "Here's something that even Eggman couldn't do"

[Dr. Mechano]

2 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

He could've reversed it, or actually tried to reverse it...but chose not to.

No, this is also wrong.

Eggman didn't know how. He says it was a pity about all the damage done on Earth. Tails figures out how to restore the planet's lost energy and even says "Here's something even Eggman couldn't do!"

Eggman would have if he knew how, but Tails outfoxed him.

Nobody remembers the plot of Pontaff's magnum opus. I'm so disappointed.

[Kuzu]

...I swear to fucking God, Eggman could have actually shot Amy in SA2 and y'all would have tried to downplay it somehow.

Is this how Final Fantasy fans treat Sephiroth? JFC...

 

This is just like that Twitter takeover answer when Shadow said he doesn't hate Sonic after roasting his shit.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Just now, WanderingBleats said:

He literally couldn't. That was part of the plot. Tails literally said the words "Here's something that even Eggman couldn't do"

Honestly, outside of Tails just being haughty, there was nothing to suggest that Eggman couldn't do that.

[StaticMania]

I did say "he could've tried".

It was an attempt to avoid responses like that.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Just now, Kuzu said:

...I swear to fucking God, Eggman could have actually shot Amy in SA2 and y'all would have tried to downplay it somehow.

Is this how Final Fantasy fans treat Sephiroth? JFC...

Eh, honestly, you're reading way too deep into how hardcore Eggman actually is with the villainy.

The point is that, he's still a villain, but he's something of a villain with standards and boundaries, and a capacity for some good nature of things. Not really too hard to wrap one's head around that.

[Dr. Mechano]

1 minute ago, Kuzu said:

...I swear to fucking God, Eggman could have actually shot Amy in SA2 and y'all would have tried to downplay it somehow.

Is this how Final Fantasy fans treat Sephiroth? JFC...

It's wrong to try to conquer the world. And it's wrong to enslave the Zeti. Two things which he actually did do in Lost World.

Saying "The bad guy didn't do this specific bad thing" (which he factually didn't, so what's the issue?) isn't saying "The bad guy didn't do any bad things."

Eggman was still a bad guy in Lost World and did some awful things. Just not the specific awful thing of draining the world's energy.

[Kuzu]

Just now, Dr. Mechano said:

It's wrong to try to conquer the world. And it's wrong to enslave the Zeti. Two things which he actually did do in Lost World.

Saying "The bad guy didn't do this specific bad thing" (which he factually didn't, so what's the issue?) isn't saying "The bad guy didn't do any bad things."

Eggman was still a bad guy in Lost World and did some awful things. Just not the specific awful thing of draining the world's energy.

I was being hyperbolic for comedic effect.

 

But the point stands; I should be glad Eggman isn't conventionally attractive  otherwise it'd be worse.

[WanderingBleats]

3 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Honestly, outside of Tails just being haughty, there was nothing to suggest that Eggman couldn't do that.

From a metacontextual standpoint, it was supposed to be Tails' big scene where he showed Sonic that he actually did have value that Eggman couldn't provide. If it was just an empty boast that would've undercut it.

Also, from an in-universe standpoint, Eggman would've preferred a non-drained world. This was established at the same time the machine itself was, in addition to the "pity about the damage" scene. The fact that he didn't reverse it almost certainly means he just didn't know how.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

4 minutes ago, WanderingBleats said:

From a metacontextual standpoint, it was supposed to be Tails' big scene where he showed Sonic that he actually did have value that Eggman couldn't provide. If it was just an empty boast that would've undercut it.

Also, from an in-universe standpoint, Eggman would've preferred a non-drained world. This was established at the same time the machine itself was, in addition to the "pity about the damage" scene. The fact that he didn't reverse it almost certainly means he just didn't know how.

Oh, I absolutely agree that Eggman would've wanted the world repaired....but I just never bought that he couldn't fix it eventually. Tails being so full of himself in Lost World didn't really help things either. My rationale was that Eggman would've eventually fixed things.

I do get how it was supposed to be Tails' big moment, but oh boy, did it not feel earned.

[WanderingBleats]

Eh, I can buy that Eggman would never figure it out. He's all about being like "I'm a genius! I can fix this!" and then... completely failing to do so as things blow up in his face, sometimes spectacularly, leaving everything around him a ruined husk. That's how I read the Bad Futures in Sonic CD in particular.

[StaticMania]

It doesn't really matter if Eggman could do it or not...because it was never gonna be shown.

It's in character, and consistent with how he's been shown to react to things...

[Whatever the WhoCares]

People who are complaining that Sage makes Eggman too soft should remember that this is the same guy who had a friendly conversation with Tails at the end of SA2. If you want to argue that the situation with Sage is different, that’s fine, but just keep in mind that we’ve seen some surprising softness from him in the past.