Sonic Frontiers Story Dicussion (Full Spoilers)

[Dr. Mechano]

10 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

That's not the dynamic I feel like people are seeing though with Eggman and Sage. Fans are using Sage to show that Eggman "has good inside of him" and how he's not as evil as he seems, as opposed to emphasizing his evil nature.

He does have good in him. It's just that that good is directed toward people he cares about and not, y'know, his enemies.

I think you're seeing good points and bad points like adding positive and negative numbers together, where the addition of one is necessarily the negation of the other. But I see them as these discrete, separate qualities that can both coexist. 

Yes, Eggman has good qualities. Yes, Eggman also has very very bad qualities that haven't been softened in the least by the aforementioned good qualities. If the world is conquered by a doting father, it's not any less conquered than it would have been if a hateful loner had done the deed. Your freedoms are forfeit to the empire either way, man.

[Kuzu]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

He does have good in him. It's just that that good is directed toward people he cares about and not, y'know, his enemies.

I think you're seeing good points and bad points like adding positive and negative numbers together, where the addition of one is necessarily the negation of the other. But I see them as these discrete, separate qualities that can both coexist. 

Yes, Eggman has good qualities. Yes, Eggman also has very very bad qualities that haven't been softened in the least by the aforementioned good qualities. If the world is conquered by a doting father, it's not any less conquered than it would have been if a hateful loner had done the deed. Your freedoms are forfeit to the empire either way, man.

A person who only cares about one or two people and says to hell with everyone else is a selfish person. Not exactly what you'd call good qualities would you?

And that's a fine trait for a villain, but I don't see that as "good person", I see that as a hypocrite.

And I don't feel like that was the intent with him at all in Frontiers.

And

[Diogenes]

10 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

That's not the dynamic I feel like people are seeing though with Eggman and Sage. Fans are using Sage to show that Eggman "has good inside of him" and how he's not as evil as he seems, as opposed to emphasizing his evil nature.

Okay, and? He's not 100% seething hatred and malice, he's capable of connecting with other people. Where is the problem?

10 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

The thing with Metal Sonic is weird because it's literally canon that Eggman forced obedience into him, which is something the games confirmed. At the very least, you can interpret it as Eggman stroking his own ego and admiring his work with Metal Sonic. 

That's not the dynamic they established with Sage though; you are 100% meant to see Eggman in a more positive light due to him being a good father to Sage and they beat you over the head with that fact all through Frontiers. 

So the whole thing is muddled; Eggman treats his creations like shit if they aren't useful and only cares about them if they perform well...except this new AI he created because it looks like a cute Anime girl that started calling him daddy...

He created Sage just as much as he did Metal, and as Jez said she's loyal and obedient the whole way through, following the letter of the law if not always exactly the spirit.

[Dr. Mechano]

Just now, Kuzu said:

A person who only cares about one or two people and says to hell with everyone else is a selfish person.

Not exactly what you'd call good qualities would you?

I'd call caring about those one or two people a good quality.

I'd call saying to hell with everyone else a bad quality.

The person you're describing has both.

[StaticMania]

A very likeable trait...

It's not really a shock that even bad/selfish people have some kind of "good" quality or the capacity to care about another individual.

Eggman's feelings about Sage and Gerald Robotnik only serve to humanize him, it's "realistic"...

---

These things don't make him good, just less 2-dimensional.

[Dr. Mechano]

Just now, StaticMania said:

A very likeable trait...

It's not really a shock that even bad/selfish people have some kind of "good" quality or the capacity to care about another individual.

Eggman's feelings about Sage and Gerald Robotnik only serve to humanize him, it's "realistic"...

---

These things don't make him good, just less 2-dimensional.

Right. I want to be clear that I don't think any of these things make Eggman a good guy. He's a bad guy who has some good traits, sure.

But he's still firmly a villain and very much not a good person overall. These good qualities do not redeem him, only humanize him, since he's still hell-bent on conquering the world and destroying anything or anyone who stands in his way.

[JezMM]

I think finding good qualities in Eggman just allows us to have a bit of push-and-pull with our feelings about him.  Like you're always like "argh if only such and such, he could live as a good person!" ... but that's not the story.  And sometimes, somehow, that sort of "frustration" can be enjoyable and allow yourself to like a character more, even relate to them a bit, despite being overall bad by your own moral standards.

Like, there's definitely a limit to how far Sonic should go with this depending on their primary age target for the franchise, but it just makes the media a little more challenging and nuanced, a little more stimulating.  As long as they can balance that it'll be nothing but good for the character and franchise (of course, I appreciate a lack of faith in them being able to do so indefinitely, that's reasonable).

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

Wait, when did it ever become a shock that Eggman could care about someone else? We've seen this before on multiple occasions. 

[MetalSkulkBane]

I don't mind that Eggman cares for Sage. I mind that SAGE cares for Sonic (at least to some degree).

So sequels will either imply she doesn't mind daddy trying to kill Sonic or is kept in the dark about this. And frankly, she's far too smart for the latter.

[Dr. Mechano]

1 minute ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

I don't mind that Eggman cares for Sage. I mind that SAGE cares for Sonic (at least to some degree).

So sequels will either imply she doesn't mind daddy trying to kill Sonic or is kept in the dark about this. And frankly, she's far too smart for the latter.

Eggman himself has at least some respect for Sonic, though he's willing to destroy him if he gets in his way.

He has saved Sonic's life when he didn't have to, like in Sonic 2 8-bit. Yeah, he saved him from falling into lava just so he could immediately try to do him in with one of his own robots instead, but I think this does show a sense of sportsmanship at least. 

But really, even if Sage is more fond of Sonic than Eggman is, that doesn't have to cause a huge conflict. Bowser Jr. largely doesn't hate Mario, and mainly seems to antagonize him to make his dad proud - this is especially obvious in Bowser's Fury, where he apologetically gestures to Mario before theatrically yelling at him in front of his old man.

This issue can also be largely avoided by making Sage a non-combatant. If her role is managing the Eggnet and maintaining Eggman's robots, rather than fighting Sonic directly, this conflict of interest doesn't have to be a big deal. She can be civil and amicable to Sonic when their paths do cross, but still firmly on the side of the Eggman Empire. She can sincerely believe that her father ruling the world is the best and most logical outcome for mankind while still not fully hating Sonic either.

[Wraith]

I guess I just think that by choosing not to lean into Eggman's more negative traits they've ended up with a less interesting version of the story. If Eggman had rejected Sage as soon as she started to formulate her own ideas they could have contrasted it to Sonic's more easy going and accepting nature. She would have had to figure out for herself the difference between an actual friendship where she's accepted for who she is and one where she's just treated as a tool and only given positive affirmation when she follows orders. 

 

As it stands now, she just kind of lands on an awkward half steps between realizing Sonic isn't all that bad of a dude but still serving someone who just wants to kill him anyway. 

 

 

 

 

[Darkvizardberrytan]

I mean when you have a near decade and then some of goofy stories I guess its hard for some people to piece together a good image of eggman. Even at the start hes never been just a single nail in the board in terms of his personality. That is one thing with sonic fans is that always assume how a character should act or be rather than as stories progress things can change or maybe they just want to try something different while continuing the story. Hell Superman in the 90s was a wild ride as with many series. The egg memos should at first he did not think of Sage as a daughter and in his time in cyber brought up maria and how growing up she being so kind while also sick people gave more attention to him which he seemed to not understand and saw it as just being ignored. What exactly made them like her so much? Same with Sage Eggman still wants to uses the ancients weapons as he states in game to Sage to take over the world and she backs him. But as time went on he was surprised a simple A.I program turned into Sage and was so obedient to him and actually accomplishing task for him without being a bumbling failure or failing from the get go like Metal usually did in games. She was devoted to him and carried out task without question till she saw Sonic was a factor that could help save him. She grew attached seeing how sonic and the others acted and was tickled when eggman started to praise her and looked up to him as a dad as she was young to the world.

 

All that said as I have stated again in the past A lot of fans are use to stories in sonic games for a VERY long time being simple and contained or just not mattering overall as just sonic action with the story as a backdrop for that game. In frontiers you can easily see they are going for a extended story in the future going forward with elements of the idw verse in the game with the mention of tangle and even having sticks dropped in. They are trying to unite many elements to tell a hopefully going forward connected story with characters returning and almost a "living" comic verse in the game. I again look forward to see more IDW elements going forward and connected (just leave out the skunk brothers, give metal the personality he has from the comics and leave eggman evil but at the same time still growing attached to his new daughter more than his last one (also mostly cause unlike belle, Sage likes being with Eggman she just wishes he would work with Sonic and likes the idea of a family)

[Indigo Rush]

I think there could still be time for a similar kind of arc in a future title if it needed to happen. There's definitely something there, and the idea of an anti-villain that doesn't actively help either side but just hangs around to make sure Eggman doesn't bite the dust could work.

Edit: got sniped, that was a response to @Wraith

[Dr. Mechano]

4 minutes ago, Wraith said:

I guess I just think that by choosing not to lean into Eggman's more negative traits they've ended up with a less interesting version of the story. If Eggman had rejected Sage as soon as she started to formulate her own ideas they could have contrasted it to Sonic's more easy going and accepting nature. She would have had to figure out for herself the difference between an actual friendship where she's accepted for who she is and one where she's just treated as a tool and only given positive affirmation when she follows orders. 

I just feel like we've already seen this story before.

Omega abandons Eggman and, while he initially just allies with them to seek revenge, becomes true friends with Shadow and Rouge over time. Somewhat less applicable but still in the general spirit of things, Gamma learns from Amy to care for others and do what he thinks is right rather than serve Eggman, even if it ended in his own destruction.

So I think this story is doing something new, rather than retreading old ground. What if Eggman was the one whose outlook changed - even a little bit - by his own creation? I personally think that's more interesting than another "Robot learns that Eggman's a jerk and betrays him" story. It's been done, it's been done fine even, but I don't think Sage doing effectively that again would be nearly as intriguing as what we got instead.

[StaticMania]

10 minutes ago, Darkvizardberrytan said:

I mean when you have a near decade and then some of goofy stories I guess its hard for some people to piece together a good image of eggman.

No.

Eggman was pretty basic and understandable before 2010...

Nothing about him changed in the 2010's besides his effectiveness, but despite that is one of the only positives people would praise about that era, except for Sonic Forces.

Eggman at his worst incarnation in both the early 2000's and the 2010's is kind of just boring. Basic in a way that's not even entertaining.

[Wraith]

14 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

I think there could still be time for a similar kind of arc in a future title if it needed to happen. There's definitely something there, and the idea of an anti-villain that doesn't actively help either side but just hangs around to make sure Eggman doesn't bite the dust could work.

Edit: got sniped, that was a response to @Wraith

Potentially interesting stories later doesn't really do anything for the dull story we're left to sit with now though. Sonic Team didn't even see certain if she would return when they wrote this story. Why not nail this the first time?

10 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I just feel like we've already seen this story before.

Omega abandons Eggman and, while he initially just allies with them to seek revenge, becomes true friends with Shadow and Rouge over time. Somewhat less applicable but still in the general spirit of things, Gamma learns from Amy to care for others and do what he thinks is right rather than serve Eggman, even if it ended in his own destruction.

So I think this story is doing something new, rather than retreading old ground. What if Eggman was the one whose outlook changed - even a little bit - by his own creation? I personally think that's more interesting than another "Robot learns that Eggman's a jerk and betrays him" story. It's been done, it's been done fine even, but I don't think Sage doing effectively that again would be nearly as intriguing as what we got instead.

The reason that keeps happening though is because Eggman's ambitions usually don't leave room for other people's ambitions. It's not like he just happens to always get abandoned or betrayed as a coincidence. He literally doesn't play well with others. 

Sage doesn't seem to have any ambitions beyond keeping Robotnik happy, but an ideal version of Frontiers's narrative would have her developing her own and forming her own opinions about things, and at that point a rift would naturally start to form.

 

It keeps happening because its what makes the most sense. You can't just do different for the sake of different when it doesn't fit the characters.

[Dr. Mechano]

1 minute ago, Wraith said:

Sage doesn't seem to have any ambitions beyond keeping Robotnik happy, but an ideal version of Frontiers's narrative would have her developing her own and forming her own opinions about things, and at that point a rift would naturally start to form.

She doesn't just want to keep Eggman happy. She wants a family. She says so herself on Chaos Island: "A family born of love, and not genetics. It's everything I want."

She gets that when Eggman recognizes her as his daughter, and not just his minion.

[Kuzu]

5 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

She doesn't just want to keep Eggman happy. She wants a family. She says so herself on Chaos Island: "A family born of love, and not genetics. It's everything I want."

She gets that when Eggman recognizes her as his daughter, and not just his minion.

So where does Sonic fit into this? Sage recognizes that Sonic is a good person, but has no problem with Eggman trying to kill him because he calls her his child?

[Ryannumber1gamer]

2 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I don't think they have to move him away from being the primary big bad, just because they're humanizing him a little more.

Bowser's a dad and he's still the uncontested main villain of the Mario series. Dr. Wily has outright said in Super Adventure Rockman that he loves his robots as opposed to viewing them as expendable minions, as well as willingly giving the cure for Roboenza as a gesture of gratitude for Mega Man saving his life in MM10, and he's no less Mega Man's archenemy for it.

I think Eggman can love his daughter, and indeed even have other good qualities on top of that, and still be the same tenacious foe to Sonic he's always been. The addition of more solidly-defined good points doesn't have to negate Eggman's bad points, and I really doubt a character like Eggman would ever truly give up on world domination.

I just wanted to chime in to say that I can even sort of see shades of what Ian was trying to do with Wily in Archie Mega Man, and apply it to Eggman. Archie Wily isn’t a heartless villain, or even the power mad monster that any Mega Man series post Classic depicts him as (I genuinely do not like that because not only does it run counter with Classic’s more lighter style, but it’s been shown for years that Wily still had a soft streak to him in the games, and even MM11 ran with that by giving Wily a sympathetic backstory). 

Anyways, in Archie, Wily is a man who you can see has a decent side to him. When Light says Wily was a decent man at one point or another, you can see it in flashbacks where he supports Light and gets him on track, Wily’s critical flaw is that his ego and need for validation constantly pushes him down the wrong path. There’s points in the Archie series where Wily does shows compassion, or a want to change himself, it’s shown that under most circumstances, he does genuinely like Light and enjoy working with him, to the degree he struggles hard with committing to his scheme for MM3.

But Wily’s ego typically always ends up his fatal flaw, and it’s what makes him interesting too. Light believes he can change and redeem himself, and the reader can really see shades of that, but Wily’s perceived slights, his ego, his need to feel validated for his robotics work, it constantly drives him straight off the deep end. Although even that doesn’t fully drive him enough to want to kill, or what have you. Under it all, he does think he’s honestly instilling a better world, even if horribly wrong. Worlds Collide shows it pretty well.

I sort of see Frontiers Eggman in the same vain - Eggman has the capability to do good with his talents. He has the capacity to love and care for others, but he also kind of has a fatal flaw where he fights against the idea due to his ego, and his goals. He takes awhile to warm up to Sage, and is constantly flip-flopping left and right on it until he eventually comes around. He acknowledges Tails’ skill and ability, calling it a shame he is hindered by Sonic, before back-pedalling. He refuses Sage’s suggestion to escape Cyberspace due to the perceived slight of teaming up with his hated enemy, etc.

All that to say I don’t think this is a bad angle at all for Eggman. Humanising your villain a bit doesn’t mean just turning him into a non-threat, it means you’re just adding more to him, giving him some capacity for things outside of being a villain, but usually their fatal flaws draw them back in, which in this case tends to be Eggman’s ego. If anything, it’s pretty neat how he overcomes it, both in accepting Sage as a daughter, accepting a team up with Sonic, and his final bitter selfless act when he commands Sage to fulfil her purpose, knowing full well it would mean the end of her. I still expect him to be a villain, even if he tries to keep Sage out of direct combat with Sonic (She was designed for networking more than anything, to be fair).

[Indigo Rush]

15 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

So where does Sonic fit into this? Sage recognizes that Sonic is a good person, but has no problem with Eggman trying to kill him because he calls her his child?

Sonic provides the example for what a family supposed to look like, and she takes that knowledge and uses whatever emotional leverage she has with Eggman to work herself deeper into his heart.

Sonic and Amy (very loosely) touch on love as a concept, Sonic and Knuckles show that people at odds can put their differences aside, and Sonic and Tails show that you don't need to be related to be family. In escalation that shifts Sage's outlook enough to convince Eggman to work with Sonic again. I don't think Sage particularly cares if he's defeated given her reaction to Sonic "dying" right when Eggman leaves Cyberspace.

Now, should she care? 

Spoiler

...Yes. 

 

[Diogenes]

9 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

So where does Sonic fit into this? Sage recognizes that Sonic is a good person, but has no problem with Eggman trying to kill him because he calls her his child?

Well, she respects Sonic's strength and drive, and envies the relationships he has, but I don't think she necessarily sees him as "the hero" in opposition to Eggman. I could see her trusting in Eggman's vision for the world, and if Sonic chooses to oppose that, well, regardless of what admirable qualities he has, he's a threat, and must be eliminated.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

I also feel like comparing Sage and Metal is apples and oranges here, Sage disregarded Eggman’s orders specially to protect him, and then in all attempts to remove him from Cyberspace, found no safe way to do so, which she both communicated, and proceeded to keep Eggman informed of what was happening, protecting him, and helping keep him at least fairly entertained through their conversations.

Metal Sonic decided to kidnap and lock Eggman up, take control of the Eggman Empire for himself, stole all that Eggman had to use for his own goals, tried to steal as much data from the heroes before eliminating them and straight up wanted to cut Eggman out of the equation altogether so he could conquer the world himself. It’s up to you to decide if ensuring Metal’s loyalty was too far, but to say Neo Metal Sonic did far, far worse for much more selfish reasons than Sage is a understatement.

There’s kind of a reason Eggman responds to the situation differently in IDW when Neo Metal assumed control of the Empire in Eggman’s best interests, trying to keep the world under his control, and taking the Master Emerald for him, all while searching for him so they could restore him, compared to his scheme in Heroes.

[Darkvizardberrytan]

38 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

So where does Sonic fit into this? Sage recognizes that Sonic is a good person, but has no problem with Eggman trying to kill him because he calls her his child?

As in another scene. She basically says your ideals are fine but i wish you would open up to working with sonic cause sorta like with starline she admires her dad but sees his main flaw is keeping Sonic away from anything to do with victory even if it goes to his greater goal cause he hates him. Sage also is A CHILD she has no real reason to hate sonic fully yet outside her dad not liking him. Even though sonic is the key to help stop the end she still wishes to remain by eggmans side to protect him. 

54 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

No.

Eggman was pretty basic and understandable before 2010...

Nothing about him changed in the 2010's besides his effectiveness, but despite that is one of the only positives people would praise about that era, except for Sonic Forces.

Eggman at his worst incarnation in both the early 2000's and the 2010's is kind of just boring. Basic in a way that's not even entertaining.

From the comics, to the tv shows, to the ova, to the 3d games. Eggmans character has bounced around horribly in terms of his goals and personality in each incarnation . I prefer the idw verse of him mixed in with the dashes of him liking the simplier life but at the same time wanting domination.

[StaticMania]

Despite how much personality the sprite work had for the games, no fan back then was getting any concrete character traits from Eggman outside of being your standard cartoon villain. So every version that existed was fair game and unless you had your own head-canon interpretation...whichever version you saw first was the definitive one.

Eggman has been the most consistent he's ever been...since 2008.

[Dr. Mechano]

Eggman in the 2000s displayed some noble traits despite being a ruthless conqueror.

In 2001, he was disheartened at his grandfather for trying to destroy the world. And later in 2005, he was disgusted by Gerald for apparently betraying his own people for Black Doom. Then, when he thought the end of the world might be nigh, he confessed the truth about Shadow - just in case they didn't make it out alive, so he could know who he truly was in his final moments.

In 2008's Unleashed, Tails himself assuages Chip's worries about how Professor Pickle is being treated in Eggman's prison, brushing off concerns of starvation with "Even Eggman's not that cruel." And hey, Tails would know - he was kidnapped by Eggman back in Sonic 2 8-bit after all, so we can surmise he was fed and kept in relative comfort at least.

It's no surprise that Pontaff's Lost World had Eggman instinctively leap to rescue Tails from a rogue robot, save Sonic from falling into lava, and even take the time to rescue Orbot and Cubot despite his constant annoyance with the two of them. He's a cad, but he's not without standards.

All these prior appearances laid the groundwork for Frontiers. Eggman's fatherly love for Sage is by far the most blatant example of his humanizing traits, but that aspect of his character had been there already for a long time. It was just subtle enough that it could be brushed aside or downplayed if someone preferred to think of him as completely and utterly lacking in humanity. Most of the above examples, you could twist into being motivated by selfishness - "He only told Shadow the truth so he'd get a confidence boost to beat Devil Doom" or "He only saved Tails because he felt he needed him to stop the Zeti." I suppose it's technically possible, though I highly doubt these were the intent of those scenes.

But with Sage, there's no villainous ulterior motive that one could come up to explain away his behavior this time. He just cares about someone. Which to me helps to contextualize those earlier moments, making it far more likely that - yeah - he cared back then too.