Sonic Frontiers Story Dicussion (Full Spoilers)

[KHCast]

It was gnawing on me for like an hour why The End felt really ineffective to me in its “foreboding” creepiness, and then I realized…it’s because it basically just gives me the same vibes yaldabaoth did from Persona 5, but not as good. Right down to the slow condescending way in which it refers to sonic and co as mortals. It wouldn’t surprise me if they used yaldabaoth as inspiration for how they wanted to portray The End tbh 

[ZinogreVolt]

Just now, KHCast said:

It was gnawing on me for like an hour why The End felt really ineffective to me in its “foreboding” creepiness, and then I realized…it’s because it basically just gives me the same vibes yaldabaoth did from Persona 5, but not as good. Right down to the slow condescending way in which it refers to sonic and co as mortals. It wouldn’t surprise me if they used yaldabaoth as inspiration for how they wanted to portray The End tbh 

I really like The End in theory more in execution. An all-encompassing evil entity that is indirectly responsible for kicking off many of the series' conflicts is great, and for what it is I think it melds itself into the series well and is a good way to cap off this era of Sonic. Within the context of Frontiers specifically, I wish it got better buildup or preamble. Preferably, it would have been nice if it actually did get to just mess shit up in the present to add more tension and weight to the actual encounter with it (which I do still like, granted), like if it got in your way by tearing up parts of Ouranos Island. 

[Kuzu]

The End feels like it would be way better as antagonist if it actually did anything noteworthy; it just shows up and immediately dies. 

[StaticMania]

4 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

...it just shows up and immediately dies. 

Consistency can't happen if the monster of the week doesn't even manage to wreck anything before Super Sonic kills it.

[Kellan]

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

Despite Sage being the focal character of the game, her sacrifice doesn't get a single reaction from Sonic

I might be wrong about this, and if I’m right then it was pretty subtle, but I think Super Sonic had tears in his eyes when he was flying back down to Earth, which then disappeared when he landed.

Sonic seemed to be hiding his feelings in this game, which I think we were supposed to take note of.

[Kuzu]

9 minutes ago, Kellan said:

I might be wrong about this, and if I’m right then it was pretty subtle, but I think Super Sonic had tears in his eyes when he was flying back down to Earth, which then disappeared when he landed.

Sonic seemed to be hiding his feelings in this game, which I think we were supposed to take note of.

Like I said, you can have him react and still keep this effect. I once again point to how Shadow, and even Chip's sacrifices were. 

[Sega DogTagz]

SAGE was an AI - he might not even be aware if she can even "die".

[Kellan]

44 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Like I said, you can have him react and still keep this effect. I once again point to how Shadow, and even Chip's sacrifices were. 

Oh, I’m not disagreeing. I was just saying that the reaction existed (I think). Personally, I thought it was odd that he didn’t have one last scene with Eggman. Sorta like how Tails and Eggman had their little side conversation at the end of SA2.

Like, maybe he didn’t realize how much Eggman actually did care about Sage, but the lack of any sort of condolence was pretty weird to me.

[Dr. Mechano]

5 hours ago, Kellan said:

Like, maybe he didn’t realize how much Eggman actually did care about Sage, but the lack of any sort of condolence was pretty weird to me.

That could work, but then it's odd because Sonic has a conversation with Sage where he assures her that Eggman does care about her. So he's already inferred that Sage is special to Eggman in some way. 

(I guess if you listened to the Egg Memos, he'd know outright too. But that cutscene plays out the same whether you've listened to them or not, so I don't know.)

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

34 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

(I guess if you listened to the Egg Memos, he'd know outright too. But that cutscene plays out the same whether you've listened to them or not, so I don't know.)

I'm guessing the game is suggesting that Sonic reading the memos is very much canon.

[Dr. Mechano]

1 hour ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

I'm guessing the game is suggesting that Sonic reading the memos is very much canon.

How'd Big get them? I dunno, cyberspace is connected to the Starfall Islands and it's possible his voice logs somehow found their way out while he himself couldn't. I can buy that.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 minute ago, Dr. Mechano said:

How'd Big get them? I dunno, cyberspace is connected to the Starfall Islands and it's possible his voice logs somehow found their way out while he himself couldn't. I can buy that.

I suppose given the wreckage of Eggman's vehicles that can be found on Starfall Islands, he probably scavenged them.

[MetalSkulkBane]

1 hour ago, Dr. Mechano said:

How'd Big get them?

Knowing Big he went fishing into Cyberspace.

Sonic is the key. Big is the picklock.

[Dummy Bear]

Story didn't go how I guessed it would. I guess that's a good because unpredictability? Here's what I thought the story beats would go: 

A group of humanoid aliens ripped straight out of Phantasy Star crash land on earth via wormhole shenanigans and colonize.

Sage was a mortal who got hurt and had her consciousness uploaded by her mother(the purple haired woman).

Sage feels isolated and lonely.

The leaders find the phantom ruby and hook it up to their mainframe but corrupts Sage in the process.

In some sort of fail-safe, everyone ends up trapped in cyberspace.

Then years later Eggman starts up the plot.

I was way off base.

[Ryannumber1gamer]

Cut voice lines that was meant to play on the fourth island as Sonic scales the towers, showing him losing his memories, and slowly becoming more desperate to finish the job as the cyber corruption begins to finish him.

[Fieryfurnace]

12 minutes ago, Ryannumber1gamer said:

Cut voice lines that was meant to play on the fourth island as Sonic scales the towers, showing him losing his memories, and slowly becoming more desperate to finish the job as the cyber corruption begins to finish him.

Interesting. It's fun to see how many elements from Sonic Frontiers' earliest leaks ended up being either re-interpreted or re-incorporated (or in this case, re-interpreted and then removed). The survey leak I'm speaking about below mentions Sonic having amnesia, but this was changed to something that happened later rather than immediately at the start. Eggman creating "an amazing AI entity" that is out of his control is even true, in a way, for Sage - though it appears in this draft the AI was the main threat.

Spoiler

I assume that the twelve scenarios Ian wrote for Frontiers, one of which Kishimoto picked, were based on this initial draft. But I dunno for certain. Ian will speak more openly about the revisions made to the plot over time on the Bumblekast in the future, hopefully.

[juiceDpunk983]

Doesn't he say these lines if you keep sonic still for awhile? Like in the old games he'll say stuff when idol.

[StaticMania]

It's not idle chatter, these only have a chance to play on specific environments of the map...

[The Deleter]

I want to know why they made these lines essentially a hard-to-activate easter egg when it makes Rhea's eventual storybeat that much more effective. Might as well leave it on the cutting room floor if you leave context like this up to chance in an open world game.

Edit - ah whoops it was already posted

[Razule]

So from what I understand:

The Kocos are the Ancients' heart core things where their spirits are stored, and when their Chaos-like bodies were destroyed, they were left behind. And when they fulfill whatever unfinished business they had, their spirits are finally able to move on.

But then, what were the Elder Kocos? Giants?

[Whatever the WhoCares]

Chaos being a mutated Chao actually makes more sense than being a mutated Ancient. Sure the Ancients look like Chaos, but we can tell from the koco in their chests and the architecture they left behind, that they were way taller than Chaos- not to mention boneless and brainless. Honestly, Chaos 0 resembles a combination of a Chao and an Ancient, so maybe the mutation brought some of that Ancient DNA to the forefront. 

[The Deleter]

39 minutes ago, Razule said:

So from what I understand:

The Kocos are the Ancients' heart core things where their spirits are stored, and when their Chaos-like bodies were destroyed, they were left behind. And when they fulfill whatever unfinished business they had, their spirits are finally able to move on.

But then, what were the Elder Kocos? Giants?

They seem to be ancients with a purpose that never really fades, as one desires to protect the koco that remain, while the other "wanders the digital realm". Obviously this is to allow them to persist in the overworld as npcs, which is probably the easier way out, but I thought it was a neat touch either way.

 

[juiceDpunk983]

I wonder what the true final boss would have been because something is up with the end game. The song Vandalise doesn't play against the true final boss, The End. No way Space Invaders was the actual vision for The End... Game. Some final battle with that song was eventually replaced with what we have in the final build. With news about the map being bigger and probably fighting the first Titan in the area you fight Supreme. There has to be something that was cut, surely. I was looking forward to the final battle with Vandalise playing.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

I don't think Vandalize was necessarily ever meant to be the boss theme, just one of the ending themes, which it is.

Yeah, probably not originally meant to be "the hacking minigame but harder" though.

[mayday2592]

Got some serious Galactus vibes from The End. An intergalactic entity going through the universe consuming planets and it even has a purple color scheme. Those are some crazy coincidences.