Sonic Frontiers Story Dicussion (Full Spoilers)

[StaticMania]

He was sort of just talking "at" Tails.

But what Tails does know is "That they all did it together", which is the perfect response to a guy asking if his Grandfather really wanted to destroy the world.

[Dr. Mechano]

3 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

He was sort of just talking "at" Tails.

But what Tails does know is "That they all did it together", which is the perfect response to a guy asking if his Grandfather really wanted to destroy the world.

"...You're right," Eggman says, realizing the folly of asking deep questions about the morality of his long-dead grandfather to a child.

[WanderingBleats]

If I was put on the spot with a question like that by someone who tried and nearly succeeded at killing my best friend about two hours ago, and the answer to the question was clearly "Yes", I'm not sure I'd be able to muster any coherent response at all. Tails did his best.

[thumbs13]

I don't think Sage will soften Eggman in any reasonable way. I don't even necessarily think that her grudgingly gaining respect for Sonic would stop them from fighting, honestly.

Like, an evil version of a traditional dynamic is a tale as old as time. Eggman wasn't even the first video game scientist to have a kid of his own, Dr. Cortex beat him to it by over a decade.

 

[StaticMania]

Nina was introduced by the time Cortex became a tad more goofy and less serious.

He has yet to make a full recovery, we worry for the outcome of his operation.

[Kuzu]

Yea, the Crash series pretty much dropped any pretense of being serious by Twinsanity.

 

[Whatever the WhoCares]

1 hour ago, thumbs13 said:

I don't think Sage will soften Eggman in any reasonable way. I don't even necessarily think that her grudgingly gaining respect for Sonic would stop them from fighting, honestly.

Like, an evil version of a traditional dynamic is a tale as old as time. Eggman wasn't even the first video game scientist to have a kid of his own, Dr. Cortex beat him to it by over a decade.

 

Keep in mind too that Sage is both impressionable and biased towards empirical data. If Eggman can simply expose her only to evidence that supports his stance, and convince her that the world would be better off under his rule, then there ya go. 

Shifting gears a little bit, I hope that she actually does gain control of the EggNet. That could be a way to explain the increased emphasis on combat in future titles. 

[StaticMania]

1 hour ago, Whatever the WhoCares said:

That could be a way to explain the increased emphasis on combat in future titles. 

Ya know how Sonic Colors had that one level where you race Motobugs?

Enemies need more variation in their function, to both serve as vital pieces of level design...and for taking advantage of Sonic's moveset.

[MetalSkulkBane]

Sage/Eggman situation kinda reminds me of Shanate. Ever since Pirate's Curse i just can't take Risky Boots seriously as a main villain. Girls bonded to much too pretend Risky will try to kill Shantae again.

If Eggman tries something like life sucking from Lost World and Sage will just watch it quietly... well, it will feel off to me.

[Iko]

8 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

You misremember. While she did make several motions to ward or scare him away, there were unmistakably attempts on his life as well. 

Kronos Island first encounter w/ Giganto

"If we are Fortunate it will Destroy You"

Activating Giganto was not a scare tactic. It was meant to kill

Ares Island Cut-scene with Knuckles

"No! No Discourse, No Bartering, Only Elimination!"

The word elimination pretty clearly outlines her intent. She even followed it up with an attack. That was an attempt on his life.

I didn't play the English version so I don't know if there are differences in the translations, but aside of those quotes, it seems like Sage spends a good amount of time warning you to leave the island and to stay away from the titans because they would kill you (even at the beginning of the game). The first qoute you mentioned comes after a sentence in which she tried to convince Sonic to stay away from the titan if I remember well.

The titans are under The End's control so they activated automatically when the ruins were activated in the first place, Sage doesn't even want them to be destroyed because she knows that it would release The End faster.

It's a situation of "I warned you, if you die it's your fault". In addition to that, she isn't even able to control the titans.

The biggest proof that she doesn't want to kill Sonic and friends is that she already made sure to trap them into cyberspace in a stable condition so that they don't risk their life (confirmed through dialogues), and she does nothing to them even after Sonic releases them.

There's a scene when you save Tails in which she outright says that feels bad to lose a biological creature with such ability like Sonic, and it's not due to her killing him, but due to the corruption and the result of the simulations telling her that he has no chance of surviving.

8 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

You're misremembering the plot of Lost World. Eggman didn't want to do that either. The Zeti did, not Eggman.

Eggman's plan was just to borrow a little energy to power his machine, carefully shutting it off so as not to take too much. The Zeti then hijacked his plans and tried to drain the entire world's energy with the express purpose of killing everything on Earth.

When Eggman does shut the machine down, he even says "Pity about the damage done down there, but there's still enough left for me to conquer." So he clearly isn't happy about the damage that's already been done, and would have preferred it not happened.

Definitely, thank you.

[Zoomzeta]

11 hours ago, thumbs13 said:

I don't think Sage will soften Eggman in any reasonable way. I don't even necessarily think that her grudgingly gaining respect for Sonic would stop them from fighting, honestly.

Like, an evil version of a traditional dynamic is a tale as old as time. Eggman wasn't even the first video game scientist to have a kid of his own, Dr. Cortex beat him to it by over a decade.

 

Well technically that's Cortex's niece, and she hasn't actually appeared in a major role since they started from scratch with Crash 4

[Dr. Mechano]

14 minutes ago, Zoomzeta said:

Well technically that's Cortex's niece, and she hasn't actually appeared in a major role since they started from scratch with Crash 4

Cortex says: "My daught... err... NIECE!" when Nina is kidnapped in Crash Twinsanity.

It seems intentionally ambiguous. Though the above quote could be implying that Nina is Cortex's niece who he sees as his own daughter.

Which I suppose isn't totally dissimilar to the Sage situation. Not biologically his daughter, but Eggman treats her like one.

Man, also, I ought to play the Crash series. I feel like I'd like Cortex.

[Sega DogTagz]

7 hours ago, Iko said:

I didn't play the English version so I don't know if there are differences in the translations, but aside of those quotes, it seems like Sage spends a good amount of time warning you to leave the island and to stay away from the titans because they would kill you (even at the beginning of the game). The first qoute you mentioned comes after a sentence in which she tried to convince Sonic to stay away from the titan if I remember well.

The titans are under The End's control so they activated automatically when the ruins were activated in the first place, Sage doesn't even want them to be destroyed because she knows that it would release The End faster.

 

Sage does try to warn Sonic to stay away, but its shown she is willing to take more drastic measures when her warnings are not enough. Even if she isn't the one controlling the Titans, it is made very clear that she is the one making them hostile against Sonic. She shows that ability on the Wyvern in island 2 (which then immediately proceeds to try and kill Sonic) and it could be easily assumed she used the same trick to make Titans 1 and 3 Hostile as well.

It also doesn't make sense to assume the Titans were under The End's control. If that were they case, End could simply have them either suicide on the spot to release itself - or throw each of the fights against Super Sonic to expedite that process.

 

7 hours ago, Iko said:

It's a situation of "I warned you, if you die it's your fault". In addition to that, she isn't even able to control the titans.

 

That idea is undercut by her attempt on Sonic's life on Ares which Knuckles blocked and her multiple dialog options that more than suggest eliminating/destroying Sonic is an acceptable outcome.

 

Sure she would prefer if Sonic turned tail and ran away - she isn't bloodthirsty after all - but her actions show she was willing to kill him.

 

The situation was "You can't win - Turn back or Die"

 

7 hours ago, Iko said:

The biggest proof that she doesn't want to kill Sonic and friends is that she already made sure to trap them into cyberspace in a stable condition so that they don't risk their life (confirmed through dialogues), and she does nothing to them even after Sonic releases them.

Confirmed through dialogs? No, it wasn't. She didn't trap them in cyberspace to keep them safe. She didn't do it so they wouldn't risk their lives. You projecting her reason for keeping Eggman locked away onto Tails Amy and Knux.

 

What is confirmed though dialogs is that she trapped Sonic's friends because -

"I had hoped to keep out external variables as well"   - Sage

Sonic/Tails/Knux/Amy were not supposed to be there so Sage did her best to keep them from interfering. Not because she wanted to keep them safe, but because in her own words they each represented a potential monkey-wrench in trying to keep Eggman safe.

 

 

7 hours ago, Iko said:

There's a scene when you save Tails in which she outright says that feels bad to lose a biological creature with such ability like Sonic, and it's not due to her killing him, but due to the corruption and the result of the simulations telling her that he has no chance of surviving.

 

She can feel bad about Sonic's plight while also being set on her own goals. She figured Sonic was a dead man walking from the start and seeing his determination and impact touched her a bit.

However none of that changes what she did. Her actions aligned with providing the outcome which gave Eggman the best chance of survival. Doesn't mean she had to like the pain and suffering that caused, but she was more than willing to execute the plan if it meant keeping Eggy alive.

[Iko]

2 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

It also doesn't make sense to assume the Titans were under The End's control. If that were they case, End could simply have them either suicide on the spot to release itself - or throw each of the fights against Super Sonic to expedite that process.

Whatever it makes sense or not, they had to fight Supreme so that The End could retreat into space, and only at that point (when The End left the titan) Sage was able to control the titan. I don't know how it could make sense but the titans with red glows are in some way controlled or tied to The End and that's why Sage couldn't control them at first.

She made Titan 3 hostile on purpose so that Sonic could destroy it, because she realized that Sonic's plan would have released Eggman as well. That's the point in the game where she said that Sonic met her expectations when he survived against the titan. At that point in the game they're not enemies anymore, Sage is still a bit "tsundere" about it but she's pretty much already on Sonic's side.

2 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Confirmed through dialogs? No, it wasn't. She didn't trap them in cyberspace to keep them safe. She didn't do it so they wouldn't risk their lives. You projecting her reason for keeping Eggman locked away onto Tails Amy and Knux.

There's another dialogue where she explains to Sonic that they are safe and not risking their life. Also, she could have killed them, instead she just trapped them. She also said that the cyberspace is the only safe place in case The End would arrive.

[Diogenes]

10 minutes ago, Iko said:

Whatever it makes sense or not, they had to fight Supreme so that The End could retreat into space, and only at that point (when The End left the titan) Sage was able to control the titan. I don't know how it could make sense but the titans with red glows are in some way controlled or tied to The End and that's why Sage couldn't control them at first.

I think the Titans were just in some kind of automatic defense mode. They're all part of the setup keeping the end sealed; they'd probably attack anyone who tried to mess with the cyberspace systems, Sage just has enough control to point them directly at Sonic.

10 minutes ago, Iko said:

She made Titan 3 hostile on purpose so that Sonic could destroy it, because she realized that Sonic's plan would have released Eggman as well. That's the point in the game where she said that Sonic met her expectations when he survived against the titan. At that point in the game they're not enemies anymore, Sage is still a bit "tsundere" about it but she's pretty much already on Sonic's side.

Eeexcept she's later hoping it kills him.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

6 hours ago, Zoomzeta said:

Well technically that's Cortex's niece, and she hasn't actually appeared in a major role since they started from scratch with Crash 4

She actually does show up in Crash 4.

 

6 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Cortex says: "My daught... err... NIECE!" when Nina is kidnapped in Crash Twinsanity.

It seems intentionally ambiguous. Though the above quote could be implying that Nina is Cortex's niece who he sees as his own daughter.

I honestly always took that line to mean that she's his illegitimate daughter who he disguises as his "niece".

 

6 hours ago, Dr. Mechano said:

Which I suppose isn't totally dissimilar to the Sage situation. Not biologically his daughter, but Eggman treats her like one.

Man, also, I ought to play the Crash series. I feel like I'd like Cortex.

Oh absolutely,  but don't bother with going for full-on completion with 4.

[Zoomzeta]

1 hour ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

She actually does show up in Crash 4.

I honestly always took that line to mean that she's his illegitimate daughter who he disguises as his "niece".

Oh absolutely,  but don't bother with going for full-on completion with 4.

Yeah, but as a cameo. You know what I meant. 

[Sega DogTagz]

2 hours ago, Iko said:

Whatever it makes sense or not, they had to fight Supreme so that The End could retreat into space, and only at that point (when The End left the titan) Sage was able to control the titan. I don't know how it could make sense but the titans with red glows are in some way controlled or tied to The End and that's why Sage couldn't control them at first.

There is nothing to suggest the Titans were under The Ends control and a ton of conflicting evidence that points to that not being the case. 

Sage had trouble controlling them because the ancients tech was several magnitudes more advanced than Eggmans tech. 

If the end had control over the Titans there would have been no need to wait for Sonic to destroy them. There is no arguing that. 

End needed outside help. End couldn't release itself from Supreme. End also wouldn't tell the Titans to try to kill the person she had enlisted to help her. 

It doesn't make sense for Titans to under Ends control because they weren't. 

2 hours ago, Iko said:

She made Titan 3 hostile on purpose so that Sonic could destroy it, because she realized that Sonic's plan would have released Eggman as well. That's the point in the game where she said that Sonic met her expectations when he survived against the titan. At that point in the game they're not enemies anymore, Sage is still a bit "tsundere" about it but she's pretty much already on Sonic's side.

 

This isn't even remotely true. Sage specifically tells Eggman at the end of the game that she never ran any simulations involving Sonic helping because the doctor did not authorize it. 

Which would in turn mean that she never considered Sonic helping prior to that, including all the shenanigans with Knight. 

Tsun or not, she was not on his side yet. 

2 hours ago, Iko said:

There's another dialogue where she explains to Sonic that they are safe and not risking their life. Also, she could have killed them, instead she just trapped them. She also said that the cyberspace is the only safe place in case The End would arrive.

End only cared about Eggman being safe. When End revealed herself, Sage didn't clamor to get everyone back in cyberspace, just her boss. The rest of them would have been left to fend for themselves against certain death. 

 

[Spooky Mulder]

19 hours ago, StaticMania said:

Ya know how Sonic Colors had that one level where you race Motobugs?

Enemies need more variation in their function, to both serve as vital pieces of level design...and for taking advantage of Sonic's moveset.

Big time. Not every enemy needs a big health bar and several hits to be interesting. I'd love to see badniks that require the player to take some specific actions to deal with them. I also think we need to see more "offensive" enemies in the open-world. It's too easy to just run past enemies. There should be more enemies with speed of their own that will attempt to pursue you or target you while escaping.

Either way, the stationary badniks of 2D Sonic games don't translate well to open world 3D design.

[Zoomzeta]

4 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

There is nothing to suggest the Titans were under The Ends control and a ton of conflicting evidence that points to that not being the case. 

Sage had trouble controlling them because the ancients tech was several magnitudes more advanced than Eggmans tech. 

If the end had control over the Titans there would have been no need to wait for Sonic to destroy them. There is no arguing that. 

End needed outside help. End couldn't release itself from Supreme. End also wouldn't tell the Titans to try to kill the person she had enlisted to help her. 

It doesn't make sense for Titans to under Ends control because they weren't. 

This isn't even remotely true. Sage specifically tells Eggman at the end of the game that she never ran any simulations involving Sonic helping because the doctor did not authorize it. 

Which would in turn mean that she never considered Sonic helping prior to that, including all the shenanigans with Knight. 

Tsun or not, she was not on his side yet. 

End only cared about Eggman being safe. When End revealed herself, Sage didn't clamor to get everyone back in cyberspace, just her boss. The rest of them would have been left to fend for themselves against certain death. 

You mean Sage only cared about Eggman? 

[Sega DogTagz]

36 minutes ago, Zoomzeta said:

You mean Sage only cared about Eggman? 

 

Sage's primary function was to keep him safe. Everything she did was motivated by that goal. It was a goal she embraced and was happy to have. Reinforced as she learned more about family and the bonds of friendship. She wanted his admiration. She wanted to be there for him.

 

By the end of the game, she did have some affection/respect/admiration for Sonic as well, but every choice she made was a calculated measure to ensure the best opportunity to keep Eggman safe. Even when teaming up with Sonic at the ending, it wasn't to "Save the World", it was simply her best chance to save Eggman.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

On 11/23/2022 at 11:21 PM, Kuzu said:

Yea, the Crash series pretty much dropped any pretense of being serious by Twinsanity.

That is, until 4 tried to pump in some of the dark vibes again with some characters getting absolutely killed, albeit offscreen.

[Iko]

8 hours ago, Diogenes said:

Eeexcept she's later hoping it kills him.

It's likely just the typical behavior of "tsundere" characters in anime, because that's what Sage is. She can't be honest about that, and at the same time wanting Sonic to cooperate with her to save Eggman (because at that point in the game she already wants that), other than a few other dialogues she had earlier talking about love, feeling bad for Sonic, etc.

8 hours ago, Diogenes said:

I think the Titans were just in some kind of automatic defense mode. They're all part of the setup keeping the end sealed; they'd probably attack anyone who tried to mess with the cyberspace systems, Sage just has enough control to point them directly at Sonic.

Probably, but in that case, since the "barrier between worlds" was already disabled, The End could have just escaped even without need of defeating the titan. From the cutscene instead, they seems to imply that The End was released from inside the titan, and that it retreated in space because of being defeated.

It couldn't be "stuck" into the titan as a sort of prison, because in that case the fact that there was no time and The End was coming soon wouldn't make sense, just don't defeat the titan and it's stuck there. Unless the "it's coming" means that the titan itself is The End, which indeed at some point came, but that's back to my initial point that The End is in control of it.

Though, if The End was in control of the titans, what's the point of telling Sonic to destroy them and then unleashing the titans against him at full force instead of facilitating the process of destruction?

Possibly a plot hole, I don't know.

6 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Sage had trouble controlling them because the ancients tech was several magnitudes more advanced than Eggmans tech. 

Not really... Sage was unable to control them because unlike the guardians and other enemies, with titans there was something preventing her to take control, something she didn't know. Turns out, red glow = no control, blue glow = control. What does red glow mean I don't know, The End, rage mode, self defense, whatever.

[Ratcicle King]

8 hours ago, Iko said:

It's likely just the typical behavior of "tsundere" characters in anime, because that's what Sage is. She can't be honest about that, and at the same time wanting Sonic to cooperate with her to save Eggman (because at that point in the game she already wants that), other than a few other dialogues she had earlier talking about love, feeling bad for Sonic, etc.

Probably, but in that case, since the "barrier between worlds" was already disabled, The End could have just escaped even without need of defeating the titan. From the cutscene instead, they seems to imply that The End was released from inside the titan, and that it retreated in space because of being defeated.

It couldn't be "stuck" into the titan as a sort of prison, because in that case the fact that there was no time and The End was coming soon wouldn't make sense, just don't defeat the titan and it's stuck there. Unless the "it's coming" means that the titan itself is The End, which indeed at some point came, but that's back to my initial point that The End is in control of it.

Though, if The End was in control of the titans, what's the point of telling Sonic to destroy them and then unleashing the titans against him at full force instead of facilitating the process of destruction?

Possibly a plot hole, I don't know.

Not really... Sage was unable to control them because unlike the guardians and other enemies, with titans there was something preventing her to take control, something she didn't know. Turns out, red glow = no control, blue glow = control. What does red glow mean I don't know, The End, rage mode, self defense, whatever.

 

Basically, from what I gathered:

The Ancient Hero who piloted Supreme said he'd ''bind'' The End to his Titan, and from there the other three sacrificed themselves to seal it into Cyberspace, leaving behind the six towers as an extra layer of locks in case the Titans failed. When Sage first interacted with Sonic she summoned the Titan as a warning, which he refused to listen, then had it attack him, as she said, she can't control the Titans, but could ''awaken their rage'', because as we see, the Titans are where the memories of the pilots are, as Sonic kept getting those flashes as he defeated them and said memories were released, so she just messed with those memories to make them see Sonic as their enemy. Sage flat out says she hopes Giganto kills Sonic, and when he doesn't, she lets go, assuming he'll give up, because she's not only unaware of Super Sonic's power, but also sure Sonic would never be able to get the final emerald since she left it on Giganto to power it. Notice Giganto didn't vanish, and also notice the engine in its head is the same the ancients used to power it before their fight with The End. At Ouranos Sage said she brought the emeralds to activate the islands' defenses (that vortex that trapped Sonic and his friends being one of them), and if the last one is always on them, that implies the Titans were meant to wake up and attack invaders, and all Sage is doing is warping them around and pointing them at Sonic, hoping to scare him away or kill him.

The thing about Sage is that she's limited by her directives, to the point where she had to ask Eggman to save his life, so at the start, her directives were ''get Eggman out of Cyberspace, keep Eggman safe, control the ancients' machines, treat Sonic as an enemy''(that last one being best exemplified with how she's privy with information and downright repetitive with shutting Sonic's ideas down, but becomes way more open with her feelings and thoughts around him after Eggman inducts him into the Empire), and she had to try to work around those as she tried to find a solution while also developing emotions and free will. When she saw Super Sonic, more of Sonic's personality and Eggman's respect for him, she started considering the possibility of Sonic beating The End, but couldn't just ask him because of her directives, thus she had to test him, hence the Knight chase, where she sounds downright like she's conducting an experiment to see Sonic's reactions, like she was studying him, and after that she tried to suggest an alliance to get clearance to run simulations, but couldn't run any because Eggman denied it. 

The whole ''not being able to control the Titans'' from what I felt at least, was meant to foreshadow the fact they're not robots like the others, but mechs with pilots inside, she couldn't control them because she didn't understand their nature and also didn't know that they had souls trapped inside and they were following a directive, which Sage could only loophole into making them attack Sonic, as he is an invader.

As for The End, he was 100% piloting Supreme, as Sage calls it ''his shell'', and they had no way of sealing it back, leaving their options at ''letting it rampage on a weaker body that's still stronger than almost anything in this world'' or ''destroy the shell and hope they can kill it before it regains its full powers'', one would lead to the world being brought to ruin, the other at least had a chance of succeeding.

[Silvereyes]

On 11/12/2022 at 4:40 AM, KHCast said:

It was gnawing on me for like an hour why The End felt really ineffective to me in its “foreboding” creepiness, and then I realized…it’s because it basically just gives me the same vibes yaldabaoth did from Persona 5, but not as good. Right down to the slow condescending way in which it refers to sonic and co as mortals. It wouldn’t surprise me if they used yaldabaoth as inspiration for how they wanted to portray The End tbh 

I was thinking of Persona 3's final boss when fighting The End, considering in that game the final boss is the Moon.

I don't have that much to say. I enjoyed the story, I liked the character dynamics. I think what really excites me is what feels like seeds for the future Ian Flynn is sowing, assuming Sonic Team lets him reap them in the future. The idea of Sonic's friends growing as people seems interesting to me. I must admit as well but I really think Sonic and co could always use a redesign, even if just a subtle face lift. I don't know if the character models in Frontiers are brand new or not but they all just look a bit dated and at times ugly, especially Amy's in my opinion.

The implications for the canon really interest me. I think the Sticks reference is simply a nice way of trying to keep her away, rather than basically being achored to the Sonic Boom continuity. And considering Sticks' personality, I don't really see adding her requires much retconning. You could basically say she just hides away in her hole somewhere most of the time, occasionally coming out to spend time with Amy or other people. I certainly don't think it canonises Sonic Boom into the game's continuity.

Tangle is the big one really. I mean, a comic exclusive character getting mentioned in a mainline Sonic game? I mean I guess that mobile game with Tangle and Whisper is what broke the ice, and yes, Ian Flynn is writing, but presumably all of Flynn's writing had to get approved by Sonic Team themselves? Honestly, I think this is a pretty big deal. Whether it amounts to anything in the future, I guess we'll have to wait and see. If Tangle was included as even just an NPC, they'd have to model her, animate her, choose a VA for her etc, which is obviously a lot more work than just referencing her. Still, does make questions about the game continuity. I think it is obvious that the IDW books aren't canon, and I doubt Sonic team would make them canon, especially when I imagine they aren't easy to come by in Japan. Still though, the possibilities... and hopefully it means my girl Whisper isn't far behind. Can't have one without the other if you ask me.

Honestly, this whole thing makes me hope Frontiers 2 or whatever the next game is is a bit like Adventure 1, set somewhere with actual NPCs to talk to, a setting that lets Sonic's friends make cameos in some capacity and lets Ian do stuff with them. I'm excited for the future.