Megathread Sonic Frontiers (2022) | MT | General Discussion (DO NOT discuss leaks here please)

[Shiny Gems]

Eh, to me, the Cyberspace levels are not so bad. Far from perfect, obviously (from controls to the reused assets), but they are playable. Me, I do not think they are that bad, but even if they are required, they don't make up much of the game compared to the actual open-zone. I know people are going to point out that you have to do the Cyberspace levels, they are part of the game, yada yada yada, but for me, I do not spend much time on them after the initial run-through anyway. I find the replay value to be more in the open-zone, personally.

[Zadent]

That weird moment reading the conversation but having been one that actually enjoyed the Cyberspace stages.

 I still need to actually buy the game (i finished it when i borrowed it from my local library), but I had a blast when I played and would gladly play more, which is an odd sensation for me with the open aspect.

I also saw a friend that was on the fence log online on the Switch after he apparently tried the demo. I made the face Spongebob makes when he realizes Squidward likes Krabby Patties

[DaBigJ]

1 hour ago, The Deleter said:

You're not far from the truth tbph. When I get the chance to go over the Japanese interviews again, I'll try and make a follow up post to cover it in detail, since there's an element to them that pretty much everyone didn't make a note of. They had also contradicted info that we thought we knew about the development of the game, so it's kinda egg in our face after going with the leaks as a 100% reliable narrative tbh

No shot I'm not far from the truth. You're pulling my leg here.

[Sonicka]

Cyberspace is certainly not perfect, probably the weakest aspect of the game overall. The controls are not as tight as Unleashed, Generations or Colours as much as they tried. In fact, I think that they locked in separate control settings away from the Open Zone areas was probably a misguided misstep.

That being said, I genuinely enjoyed the SA2 remake levels which functionally fit in quite well, alongside a lot of the original stage designs from Ouranos island.

And despite the lack of themes, anything here is better than Forces level offerings; and that entire game was basically 30 small cyberstage stages in comparison to what Frontiers offers overall. 

[Dummy Bear]

5 hours ago, Sonicka said:

That's fair, I think becaus I just like running aimlessly in this game for periods of time a lot of the issues don't personally peeve me that much, which makes objectives and goals or getting to places mostly a non-issue for me. Sometimes I find stuff by luck, or sometimes by design, sometimes by exploring - it's all ok as far as I'm concerned. But I can appreciate the other perspective. 

Ah yeah, with the Chaos Island's namesake I was just being flippant. I'm more surprised they didn't appropriate spelling the name to something like 'Kaos' Island instead though considering what "Chaos" means in terms of Sonic Lore as you say. Chaos (Emeralds), Chaos (SA1), Chaos (Control), The Chao's... well, that one's slightly different (but related) and spelt the same to a point. There sure ain't no Chao's Garden on Chaos Island in any case.

I kinda understand the annoyances and grievances, though with items constantly flinging you where you don't want to go, even though I like traveling this island, too.

In fact, I wish there was an option to remove objects from the open zones. It gets annoying trying to avoid boost pads after a while.

[Shiny Gems]

8 minutes ago, Slash said:

I kinda understand the annoyances and grievances, though with items constantly flinging you where you don't want to go, even though I like traveling this island, too.

In fact, I wish there was an option to remove objects from the open zones. It gets annoying trying to avoid boost pads after a while.

I am not sure about anything else, but I do wish some of the boost pads worked more like those of Stardust Speedway of Sonic CD; you know, the ones that propel you in either direction instead of one? I mean, I don’t know if that would solve everything about boost pads, but I do think having those kinds of boost pads replace some of the current boost pads would help the issue to a degree.

[Dummy Bear]

40 minutes ago, Sonicka said:

Cyberspace is certainly not perfect, probably the weakest aspect of the game overall. The controls are not as tight as Unleashed, Generations or Colours as much as they tried. In fact, I think that they locked in separate control settings away from the Open Zone areas was probably a misguided misstep.

That being said, I genuinely enjoyed the SA2 remake levels which functionally fit in quite well, alongside a lot of the original stage designs from Ouranos island.

And despite the lack of themes, anything here is better than Forces level offerings; and that entire game was basically 30 small cyberstage stages in comparison to what Frontiers offer

Cyberspace is indeed the weakest part of the game but I do like some of the physics quirks like boosting on a downward incline or after a boost pads to increase your top speed.

[DaBigJ]

I had to literally mash the boost button

My arm hurts

I hate Cyberspace

[Dummy Bear]

I've more or less accepted I'm never gonna S rank that stage and I'm at peace with that.

[Sega DogTagz]

Its not as difficult as everyone makes it out to be.

 

There is an optimal path that can get you there in 53-54 seconds. Past that, you could always just lean on some speedrunning strats to shave off any seconds you fall off of a perfect run. You can trim off a good 5 seconds with well timed rail jumps alone.

[Sonicka]

Good job nonetheless @DaBigJ

It’s still pretty weird that 1-2 has the hardest to grab S Rank time compared to the rest (at least from my experience anyway). Is that intentional? Or did they just make the others easier, or did they forget to the reduce the time down on this one? 

It makes me wonder if there were at one stage in development “super hard” times to unlock (like MK staff ghosts) and this one just got leftover accidentally. 

[Sega DogTagz]

The quality controls on anything timed in this game are naff.

 

You see it all the time in the open zone. Any of the missions that tasked you to "reach a destination in a time limit" were so overbearingly generous that is was insulting. You'd often reach the destination with 45+ seconds to spare and wondering who they designed that challenge for.

 

More than half of the S-Ranks in cyberspace can be earned by pure accident on the first play-though of a level when your not even attempting to "speed-run". That should never happen. I get leaning on the side of being forgiving, to accommodate for less skilled players, but in most of the levels just finding the optimal path is enough to clear the level with 10 seconds to spare.

 

Its not challenging the player at all. Its not even like the levels are that long. Its not too much to ask for 55 seconds of perfection. This isn't unleashed or gens where you can screw up 3-4 mins into a level and be forced to retry the whole thing.

[fia]

1 hour ago, Sega DogTagz said:

The quality controls on anything timed in this game are naff.

You see it all the time in the open zone. Any of the missions that tasked you to "reach a destination in a time limit" were so overbearingly generous that is was insulting. You'd often reach the destination with 45+ seconds to spare and wondering who they designed that challenge for.

 

 

Don't forget about the jump rope challenges where you can just stay in place by holding the parry in mid-air to win, as well as the challenges involving parrying a projectile that you can *also* just hold the buttons down to win. It's so obvious that it was supposed to be timed I wonder how late into the game they changed it.

[Blue Blood]

5 hours ago, silverthepsychic said:

Don't forget about the jump rope challenges where you can just stay in place by holding the parry in mid-air to win, as well as the challenges involving parrying a projectile that you can *also* just hold the buttons down to win. It's so obvious that it was supposed to be timed I wonder how late into the game they changed it.

Also @Sega DogTagz

Absolutely. All of this reeks of being rushed. Not "incompete" rushed like '06 or RoL, nor is it even "development hell" rushed like Forces. It feels like Sonic Team had a vision for Frontiers that they just didn't have the time and money to fully realise in the end. I think that eventually they decided to stop experimenting with new features and mechanics so that they could start finalising the game with what they had already, specifically so that they didn't release another broken, incomplete and comically bad game.

That's why we've got underbaked mechanics like parrying and the drop dash, which have uses but are very confused in their design. And it's why we've got Rhea and Ouranos so obviously unintended to be stand-alone areas. Then there's Cyberspace, which strikes me as "conscious filler". It forms a fairly significant chunk of the game and it shows throughout, unlike filler in other games in which it tends to get lumped together at the end to pad out length. I figure that early on in development they decided to include traditional stages because a Sonic game would be strange without them, and decided the best course of action was to recycle assets from visuals to level layouts to streamline production as much as possible. How they ended up with such awful controls is beyond me though. And of course, all of this is guesswork. 

My faith in Sonic Team isn't as low as it would have been had Frontiers been awful. The game just isn't that bad. But even so, I'm aghast by just now many mistakes Frontiers makes. As in, fundamental game design problems, not just hypersensitive over-critical Sonic fan "flaws". It makes me question the competency of Sonic Team and the leadership. Is Frontiers the best that they can do? Cause that would be a huge problem. 

[DaBigJ]

Eg, I'd say it does feel a little incomplete. 

I had an instance of getting stuck in geometry once, and another time where the flying enemy that steals one of your emeralds clipped me through the floor. They were rare occasions, let me make that clear, but it's bizarre that these weren't noticed during playtesting.

There's also just how barren the Open Zones feel, and yes I get the plot references that a bit, but that doesn't excuse how unfinished all the maps feel. Enemies just randomly sprinkled in places, boost related elements tossed in at random, it's almost kinda comedical how messy it all feels. This should've been given at least another year in the oven.

[Wraith]

8 hours ago, DaBigJ said:

I had to literally mash the boost button

My arm hurts

I hate Cyberspace

This was my favorite level to s rank. Most levels only took one serrious try to S rank but I had to really study this one, like the old days where I would try speed running SA2 or CD. I wouldn't mind if all the tangible rewards for an S Rank were moved down to A, and S became more of a bragging rights reward with perfect play required. 

 

[DaBigJ]

10 minutes ago, Wraith said:

This was my favorite level to s rank. Most levels only took one serrious try to S rank but I had to really study this one, like the old days where I would try speed running SA2 or CD. I wouldn't mind if all the tangible rewards for an S Rank were moved down to A, and S became more of a bragging rights reward with perfect play required. 

I like a challenge too, I just more so had an unpleasant time because Sonic controls like a drunk car and how frame perfect you kind of have to be with those controls.

[Blue Blood]

1 hour ago, DaBigJ said:

Eg, I'd say it does feel a little incomplete. 

I had an instance of getting stuck in geometry once, and another time where the flying enemy that steals one of your emeralds clipped me through the floor. They were rare occasions, let me make that clear, but it's bizarre that these weren't noticed during playtesting.

There's also just how barren the Open Zones feel, and yes I get the plot references that a bit, but that doesn't excuse how unfinished all the maps feel. Enemies just randomly sprinkled in places, boost related elements tossed in at random, it's almost kinda comedical how messy it all feels. This should've been given at least another year in the oven.

I came across few bugs, but nothing major and not regularly either. They seemed like relatively isolated events. Every game will have some bugs, and I've run into a few random ones in even the most polished, stable games.

Frontiers definitely could have done with more play testing from focus groups and QA. Pre-release interviews and comments from Iizuka and Kishimoto imply that even they wanted the game to have more time ultimately, but that SEGA and the budget weren't going to extend any further. However, I argue that the general "game feel" wouldn't have changed with extra time because it was all intentional design. The barren environments populated by randomly placed enemies and assorted boost-related objects is what the game was made for. My conclusion is as follows:

Sonic Team barely designed Sonic to be able to traverse an open world. What they did instead was improve boost Sonic's ability to turn and lower his top speed. They also gave him instant deceleration. Similarly, they didn't design an open world to cater towards Sonic's unique gameplay and abilities.

To make Frontiers, Sonic Team created a sprawling, empty environment that could be run across and almost retroactively made it into a Sonic game by putting objects in. That's why 99% percent of platforming takes place off the ground in generic platforms and rails. Have you noticed how little sonic interacts with the environment itself? Slopes aren't a part of the design, sure. But even more naif things aren't either. The Ancients houses in some areas are borderline impossible to platform on, for example. There are very few paths or obviously designed routes in the open zone that aren't made up of objects. 

I feel like they've been taking this approach to games for a long time, which is why they rely so heavily on springs and homing for jumping, and boosters and splines to script paths. It's not unique to Frontiers. They've forgotten to design their games around the abilities that they give the player (and forgotten to properly refine said abilities as a result). The flat-hallway esque design of games like Colours and Forces means that they could design the visuals first and then build the level to work on that. It got pretty bad at times.

With this approach, it's easy to change layouts on a whim during development. If they come across a problem like something being too hard or Sonic being unable to make a jump, all they have to do is shuffle around a few objects and the level is fixed.

Anyway, yeah this is all how the game is designed. It's been Sonic Team's approach for a while. It feels misguided, but I wouldn't say it was incomplete. And because of that, I also don't think it can get much better.

[DaBigJ]

You also aren't really awarded for exploring things either. It makes me wonder why they didn't just made another boost game.

[Looks at Cyberspace]

Oh.

Jokes aside, your post is pretty on point in all honesty. Even if Frontiers was good, there's no chance it'll get better than what we got here. The track record basically screams this out loud.

[Jango]

So, what are the chances of ST actually not making a sequel/successor to Frontiers in the end? Maybe unlikely since Frontiers did performed well (right?), but it's not unheard for them to simply move on to something completely different again, despite good sales and praise. Not to be cynical, but I will not take SEGA's or Sonic Team's words for granted anytime soon, I know their track record front and back. So the "Frontiers will be the blue-print for the next decade of Sonic!" means close to nothing for me right now. I would welcome a better and improved open-(zone)-world Sonic game, this time actually set in a place that has Sonic stuff and shit, and more momentum based movement. 

 

[DaBigJ]

16 minutes ago, Jango said:

So, what are the chances of ST actually not making a sequel/successor to Frontiers in the end?

I'll eat a shoe if we do. I'll eat two if it's good.

---

An unrelated thing to the quoted reply, but here's something fun.

The grilling mini game can net you coins to spent at the shop, and the number increases depending on the island like the fishing coins...

And it's free.

All you have to do is time and press A.

Happy grinding

[Wraith]

1 hour ago, Blue Blood said:

I came across few bugs, but nothing major and not regularly either. They seemed like relatively isolated events. Every game will have some bugs, and I've run into a few random ones in even the most polished, stable games.

Frontiers definitely could have done with more play testing from focus groups and QA. Pre-release interviews and comments from Iizuka and Kishimoto imply that even they wanted the game to have more time ultimately, but that SEGA and the budget weren't going to extend any further. However, I argue that the general "game feel" wouldn't have changed with extra time because it was all intentional design. The barren environments populated by randomly placed enemies and assorted boost-related objects is what the game was made for. My conclusion is as follows:

Sonic Team barely designed Sonic to be able to traverse an open world. What they did instead was improve boost Sonic's ability to turn and lower his top speed. They also gave him instant deceleration. Similarly, they didn't design an open world to cater towards Sonic's unique gameplay and abilities.

To make Frontiers, Sonic Team created a sprawling, empty environment that could be run across and almost retroactively made it into a Sonic game by putting objects in. That's why 99% percent of platforming takes place off the ground in generic platforms and rails. Have you noticed how little sonic interacts with the environment itself? Slopes aren't a part of the design, sure. But even more naif things aren't either. The Ancients houses in some areas are borderline impossible to platform on, for example. There are very few paths or obviously designed routes in the open zone that aren't made up of objects. 

I feel like they've been taking this approach to games for a long time, which is why they rely so heavily on springs and homing for jumping, and boosters and splines to script paths. It's not unique to Frontiers. They've forgotten to design their games around the abilities that they give the player (and forgotten to properly refine said abilities as a result). The flat-hallway esque design of games like Colours and Forces means that they could design the visuals first and then build the level to work on that. It got pretty bad at times.

With this approach, it's easy to change layouts on a whim during development. If they come across a problem like something being too hard or Sonic being unable to make a jump, all they have to do is shuffle around a few objects and the level is fixed.

Anyway, yeah this is all how the game is designed. It's been Sonic Team's approach for a while. It feels misguided, but I wouldn't say it was incomplete. And because of that, I also don't think it can get much better.

From what we understand, they designed the map first and worked backwards adding Sonic Colors style level design chunks when playtesters said it was boring. The fact that they even ran into that problem, along with the halfbaked solution they came with, has basically killed my faith in Sonic Team as game designers. I don't get how you put in a year's worth of work designing an entire open world map without stopping to think about whether actually traversing it as your title character will be any fun. The "Open zone" as it stands now just reads like a waste of resources to me. Almost nothing is interactable besides the odd rock that fires Sonic off in a random direction.

The fact that they're actually making Sonic games is still an after-thought to them after all these years. I'm done playing Sonic Team lead games until that changes.

 

 

2 hours ago, DaBigJ said:

I like a challenge too, I just more so had an unpleasant time because Sonic controls like a drunk car and how frame perfect you kind of have to be with those controls.

Yeah this is why this game still loses to most of the other 3D games to me. In the traditional 3D Sonic stages the controls aren't reliable in the slightest which is insane given how much time they spent refining the open world controls imo. 3D Sonic has ALWAYS had that problem but it hasn't been this bad since Heroes and I'm just not sure how we got here. 
 

[ZinogreVolt]

5 hours ago, silverthepsychic said:

Don't forget about the jump rope challenges where you can just stay in place by holding the parry in mid-air to win, as well as the challenges involving parrying a projectile that you can *also* just hold the buttons down to win. It's so obvious that it was supposed to be timed I wonder how late into the game they changed it.

Hahaha I never thought to try this, holy shit.

[Blue Blood]

21 minutes ago, Wraith said:

The fact that they're actually making Sonic games is still an after-thought to them after all these years. 

This basically sums up everything. God damn 

[castell-neath]

6 hours ago, Wraith said:

The fact that they're actually making Sonic games is still an after-thought to them after all these years. I'm done playing Sonic Team lead games until that changes.
 

The fact that they made those horrendous cyberspace stages proves this too. Awful control and next to no momentum, boost pads galore, gravity that does not allow any significant air movement and a rehash of old stages...some of which are those awful rail grinding stages that should never ever be seen again in a sonic franchise.

Why, why,why could they just not make a 2d mania / 3d unleashed (day) style game with thier respective physics as the cyberspace stages? I get trial and error in openzone but those cyberspace ones should really have been spot on after all this time...not worse than forces