Megathread Sonic Frontiers (2022) | MT | General Discussion (DO NOT discuss leaks here please)

[Jango]

4 hours ago, Wraith said:

From what we understand, they designed the map first and worked backwards adding Sonic Colors style level design chunks when playtesters said it was boring. The fact that they even ran into that problem, along with the halfbaked solution they came with, has basically killed my faith in Sonic Team as game designers. I don't get how you put in a year's worth of work designing an entire open world map without stopping to think about whether actually traversing it as your title character will be any fun. The "Open zone" as it stands now just reads like a waste of resources to me. Almost nothing is interactable besides the odd rock that fires Sonic off in a random direction.

The fact that they're actually making Sonic games is still an after-thought to them after all these years. I'm done playing Sonic Team lead games until that changes.

 

Yeah this is why this game still loses to most of the other 3D games to me. In the traditional 3D Sonic stages the controls aren't reliable in the slightest which is insane given how much time they spent refining the open world controls imo. 3D Sonic has ALWAYS had that problem but it hasn't been this bad since Heroes and I'm just not sure how we got here. 
 

Never in my life I heard about creating the world first (save for the general idea for the game, genre, vibe) then adding the playable character second. And it's not like Sonic is a new character, they know the basic of how he moves and interacts with stuff since 1991. It's sad honestly seeing those props all badly sticked together forming loops and platforms, pretty much like one of those GTA Online custom levels. While the world bellow barely has any decent slope. 

[Shiny Gems]

Okay, not going to lie...

Spoiler

In regards to the scene on Chaos Island in Sonic Frontiers, where Sage listens to Sonic and Tails' conversation and shed a tear over it...

That made me cry some.

I liked Chaos Island a lot, actually.

 

[DaBigJ]

I hate pinball

I fucking hate this

I hate this so fucking much

[Shiny Gems]

8 minutes ago, DaBigJ said:

I hate pinball

I fucking hate this

I hate this so fucking much

I thought it was going to be a pain too, since I am not that good with pinball. In my point of view though, it wasn't that bad trying to get through it. I got through the pinball section soon enough. It was kinda fun for me at the end.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

54 minutes ago, ShinyGems said:

I thought it was going to be a pain too, since I am not that good with pinball. In my point of view though, it wasn't that bad trying to get through it. I got through the pinball section soon enough. It was kinda fun for me at the end.

Yeah, if you're into pinball well enough, it's an enjoyable part of the game.

Only problem is that the score needed to clear it is much larger than necessary. 

[Shiny Gems]

8 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Yeah, if you're into pinball well enough, it's an enjoyable part of the game.

Only problem is that the score needed to clear it is much larger than necessary. 

Agreed. They definitely could have made the required score smaller when they made the game.

[StaticMania]

19 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Yeah, if you're into pinball well enough, it's an enjoyable part of the game.

A pinball board that basic wouldn't even satisfy an enthusiast, much less a fanatic.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

25 minutes ago, StaticMania said:

A pinball board that basic wouldn't even satisfy an enthusiast, much less a fanatic.

Eh, the sheer addictiveness of pinball would work for some, even with the simple layout. But no, the real problem stems from the absurd height of the required score. Even on a bigger and more complex pinball table, unless it has a very intuitive design to help you carry through with that score, would wear on someone's nerves.

38 minutes ago, ShinyGems said:

Agreed. They definitely could have made the required score smaller when they made the game.

Honestly, at the very least, do that, and then, if someone wants to keep going, let them do so. That would've been the much better solution.

[Sonicka]

I do kinda wish Pinball had more to it like Sonic Adventure 1's table, but this is supposed to be Pinball (but not Pinball) so sure. The score is absurdly high but then it's also designed around obtaining the multiplier as well.

I just wish I had realised I had to propel Sonic through the top of the screen when I reached the score. My dumb brain hadn't clicked it was a door so the light show at the top just made me think I had "completed" pinball so I let the ball drop through the bottom a couple of times. 

14 hours ago, castell-neath said:

The fact that they made those horrendous cyberspace stages proves this too. Awful control and next to no momentum, boost pads galore, gravity that does not allow any significant air movement and a rehash of old stages...some of which are those awful rail grinding stages that should never ever be seen again in a sonic franchise.

Why, why,why could they just not make a 2d mania / 3d unleashed (day) style game with thier respective physics as the cyberspace stages? I get trial and error in openzone but those cyberspace ones should really have been spot on after all this time...not worse than forces

Naaah, the grinding stages (SA2 in particular) are awesome. Final Rush is a real thrill ride when you know what you're doing and how to exploit shortcuts - I was actually disappointed that level wasn't lifted into cyberspace personally. XD

That being said... I dunno if I agree Cyberspace is worse than Forces offerings. Forces at worse was bottom of the barrel automated level design, and at best didn't work with Sonic's nurfed controls. I agree that Cyberspace is unwieldy due to them trying to recapture an era where the physics felt more fluent and they still fall short of this goal - but the new and repurposed level designs on offer are at least more interesting and varied (to me anyway) that it functions well enough to be enjoyable to replay.

[Red Hot Jack]

I think Chaos Island's problems lie in the very basic restriction it gives to the open zone, which has potential of freedom, 2D limits that a lot, especially if I want to rush and run to another side of the island or one of the other small islands (Chaos Island is like an archipelago), I have to go through a lot of 2D corridors and can't go freely in the fastest possible way or in the way I want to go. It's kind of unnerving especially if you have to repeat the 2D phases.

That said I'm someone who likes 2D in Sonic games, I feel like Chaos Island does a lot to bring variety to the table in terms of gameplay, among the Starfall Islands, we have Kronos which is the tutorial and the easiest grass island, pretty basic but it introduces most of the enemies, guardians and concepts of the game; Ares which has a series of cool additions and a new theme, plus interesting story missions, new enemies, etc. Chaos, meanwhile, is perhaps the most unique of the open zones: mostly 2D, with separate small islands interconnected only by rails and traversable by that skeleton bird (which was pretty useless in some cases to me), another cool new theme which is sky/lava mix, more story missions (the infamous pinball), and perhaps the best boss fight in the game: Knight.

Not to mention the story, the interactions of Sonic with Tails and Knuckles are the highlight for me, more interesting dynamics than whatever was with Sonic and Amy, also it's the point of the story where the Sage & Eggman dynamic builds, and also Sonic & Sage.

I don't know about you guys, but to me Ares and Chaos are my favorite islands in the game, the most unique ones, yeah Kronos introduces most of the stuff so I gotta give it that, the scenery is basic but also beautiful, the boss fights are some of the best.

For me: Ares > Chaos > Kronos > Ouranos > Rhea

The game in terms of content, themes, enemies, ideas... just kinda stops after Chaos Island. Rhea is the "lore story dump" I'm not sure it even counts as an island, and Ouranos, is a bit disappointing to be honest, there is barely anything new, it is the best designed in terms of level design and the most challenging one but in general the game is very forgiving, the new enemies are the same most of the time, just variations, and that's it, cyberspace is the best here because of original level design, yeah. But the theme of the island is Kronos 2.0. that is the most disappointing thing, also Supreme is not a top fight IMO.

I wish we got 5 full original islands, I guess I have to settle for 3.

[DaBigJ]

I did it.

By sheer masochism and will power, I both beaten and 100%'d Frontiers.

I bought 5000+ children from Big the Cat's black market, unlocked every move, max upgraded every stat, played and s-ranked every plagiarized and shitty Cyberspace level, cleared all of the islands' maps, saw every bit of the side story stuff, and defeated The End.

It's gonna take me at least a few days to soak up everything, but I plan on writing out a generalized opinion on the whole package in notepad and then post it here.

For now, all I can say is....

I'm never playing a "new" (Post-Frontiers, not a remake/remaster/rerelease) Sonic Team made game until they can prove to me that they know what they're doing, holy shit this was bad. 

[Shiny Gems]

10 hours ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

Eh, the sheer addictiveness of pinball would work for some, even with the simple layout. But no, the real problem stems from the absurd height of the required score. Even on a bigger and more complex pinball table, unless it has a very intuitive design to help you carry through with that score, would wear on someone's nerves.

Honestly, at the very least, do that, and then, if someone wants to keep going, let them do so. That would've been the much better solution.

Yeah. Well, at least the pinball music theme was good in my point of view.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

51 minutes ago, ShinyGems said:

Yeah. Well, at least the pinball music theme was good in my point of view.

Oh yeah. Well, the music in general for the game is fantastic. Might be Tomoya Ohtani's best to date so far, as it combines so many different genres, and each one is either a bop or a relaxing delight to listen to.

[Dummy Bear]

The pinball machine is pretty dull, tbh, but it wasn't too frustrating either. Just really tedious.

I remember playing it the first time and I never once lost a ball. It just takes too long. It's just a basic layout where you grab rings and multiply score. No ramps, no secret areas. Just grab rings and that's it. A table this basic should NOT have a score that high.

It's also the only pinball game in the entire game and you can't replay it.

Also, the music sounds like something from a game show.

Everything about the pinball stage just screams "Big Lipped Alligator Moment".

[Amy2023]

I didn't mind the pinball bit of the game I did pass It on the 3rd go. But I did get vibes from Sonic Spinball game from the Sega Mega Drive that brought back 90's vibes feelings.

[DaBigJ]

If I were to put Frontiers in a tier list...it'd be like this

Sonic Frontiers is a step up from Sonic Forces, but it's still a very painful slog to get through, both casually and completionist wise.

The biggest problem is that it's suffering an identity crisis, in terms of gameplay. It wants so desperately to be another open world game like, I dunno, Breath of the Wild or [Insert Ubisoft Game Here] but it's not confident enough to do that, so it liters the same fucking boostisms and automated bullshit we've been seeing since Sonic Colors back on the Wii, except they're genuinely worthless and only serve as filler.

That's not to mention how abysmal Cyberspace is, which has only four level themes, three of which are from the classics because "hur dur nostalgia" while also borderline plagiarizing levels from actually better games because apparently designing new levels is hard. It's fucking pathetic that a franchise like Sonic is allowed to get away with blatant rehashing yet other franchises would get ass blasted for doing it.

I honestly think there's no potential to be found here, at least with the boost formula. If they want to do more Open Zone stuff, they absolutely need to ditch Boost Sonic and do something else, because combining boost shit with empty fields and boring, repetitive combat a fun game does not make.

It just stinks.

[Shiny Gems]

I am almost to the end. Just have two more bosses to go. I have set the difficulty on hard. I will finish it all tomorrow.

On the way to the Supreme, I developed one complaint.

Good grief, getting memory tokens to give to Sage was a pain.

[Sega DogTagz]

7 hours ago, DaBigJ said:

It's fucking pathetic that a franchise like Sonic is allowed to get away with blatant rehashing yet other franchises would get ass blasted for doing it.

 

 

In what universe is Sonic Team being allowed to get away with the rehashing?

We've been blasting them mercilessly for doing it since Gens or did you somehow miss all the collective groans every time we see another GHZ or CPZ. The general public at large is even starting to take note.

 

They aren't "getting away" with anything. Its a visible detraction at this point. You make it sound like everyone is praising them for Sky Sanctuary Act 274.

[DaBigJ]

They are getting away with it, because if they weren't it wouldn't be in nearly every damn Sonic game since 2011.

[Amy2023]

7 hours ago, ShinyGems said:

I am almost to the end. Just have two more bosses to go. I have set the difficulty on hard. I will finish it all tomorrow.

On the way to the Supreme, I developed one complaint.

Good grief, getting memory tokens to give to Sage was a pain.

I definitely agree with you about getting memory tokens for Sage can be annoying doing that part final part of the game.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

3 hours ago, DaBigJ said:

They are getting away with it, because if they weren't it wouldn't be in nearly every damn Sonic game since 2011.

Except,  that doesn't match up with your insistence that the Sonic series doesn't get critiqued for it.

Newsflash. A lot of times, even when they get critiqued for it, a company will repeat an issue for one reason or another.

Despite Frontiers getting majorly positive reception, one of the main critiques was indeed the cyberspace stages, sans the city stages, reusing aesthetics,  so no, unless it's changed recently, it doesn't fit your definition of them getting away with it from earlier.

[Dummy Bear]

5 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

In what universe is Sonic Team being allowed to get away with the rehashing?

We've been blasting them mercilessly for doing it since Gens or did you somehow miss all the collective groans every time we see another GHZ or CPZ. The general public at large is even starting to take note.

They aren't "getting away" with anything. Its a visible detraction at this point. You make it sound like everyone is praising them for Sky Sanctuary Act 274.

Also, in what universe has a franchise really been ass blasted for rehashing?

[TheZekenator]

10 hours ago, ShinyGems said:

Good grief, getting memory tokens to give to Sage was a pain.

This is definitely annoying. I've noticed the memory tokens are a little harder to get and maybe that's because I'm used to getting them from Big's Fishing spot (which there are two on the island). Though yeah even with all your stats maxed it's a pain to do it by just running your behind off with infinite boost.

[DaBigJ]

Alright, let me clarify 

When I say "getting away", it was a bad choice of wording. What I really mean is "they don't get enough pushback unlike other brands". 

Yes, we as a community push back on it all, but I don't think it's enough. I think more people outside of the community need to put their foot down somewhat. I don't know if it'll help, but maybe it'll at least send the message farther

[LegoFedora]

14 hours ago, DaBigJ said:

It's fucking pathetic that a franchise like Sonic is allowed to get away with blatant rehashing yet other franchises would get ass blasted for doing it.

What? Whenever I see people discuss games reusing assets in a negative light, Sonic is usually without fail the first example they go to. On these forums alone, a major point of contention about Frontiers (and by extension, every sonic game since Generations really) is just how bad Sonic Team has gotten about reusing past stages to a tiring degree, and with it always being the same few stages.

Spoiler

If you want a more cynical answer: That's because Sonic Team knows they'll never surpass what they used to do so they don't even think it's worth trying to be original, and people have accepted that this is the case