Megathread Sonic Origins | MT | General Discussion

[Shane]

It was a common fan explanation for why the prototype music was in the PC version but not the other re-releases. It never held up to actual scrutiny though, both because that's not how licensing generally works (as you said) and because Sonic Jam was a native port that came out the year after the PC version of Sonic 3 & Knuckles.

[Spin Slasher]

That is the point and the Sonic Origins port of Sonic 3&K does not infringe copyright in the Music but I really wish that they get a license to use the MJ tracks in the Game and I might get used to these Remixes.

[Tenko]

It's a little upsetting the release music wont be available regardless of the reason, but good news there's some real effort being put into a workaround using the "original" music no less.

Considering Carnival Night uses "Entrance of the Gladiators" as it's base which was written in 1897 and would I imagine be long since public domain by now we could end up with something pretty close to the original. Ice Cap and Launch Base will be a loss, Ice Cap was such a memorable tune from the release version and without the "Go, Go, Go!" In Launch Base it just won't hit the same for me personally.

If that's what it takes to get a re-release finally and the awesome looking Story Mode then I guess that's how it's gota be.

[Shiny Gems]

Just wondering; the vocals for the Japanese soundtrack for Sonic CD are back in Origins, but in the credits of playable Tails mode in Sonic CD's remaster, a non-vocal version of this song was included.

I wonder if they decide to bring it back for Tails' credits in Sonic CD of Sonic Origins, they will include the vocals to this tune this time around?

[Razule]

Both versions of Sonic 3 I've played (Ultimate Genesis Collection and Sonic Classic Collection) had Sonic 3's MJ music if I'm remembering correctly. Did this copyright thing start during the 2010s?

[JezMM]

I was actually going to mention the Sonic Jam inconsistency in my post but felt like it was getting a bit too overly detailed and getting off-track from what the person asked.  As for the "that's not how licenses work anyway" I assumed it was a similar scenario to TV shows with licensed music, where we've had this issue of shows having songs replaced on streaming services because they weren't accounted for in the original agreements, but home media releases were.  And presumebly something in the agreements' wording means that even though DVDs or Blu-Rays didn't exist at the time, they're covered by whatever was agreed for VHS releases etc.  I assumed it was the same cases for re-releases of the original ROM.

But yeah, even if my assumptions there had truth to them, Jam would remain a huge giant question mark.  Tbh the only assumption I could ever have about that is maybe SEGA in fact did get into trouble behind the scenes but it was kept on the down-low, lol.  (Either that or an agreement was made for Jam, but then attempts for S&K Collection and Origins, the music owners became unreasonable somehow.)

(EDIT: Nope not that second one because Jam came out after S&K Collection it seems, bloody hell I'll just go fuck myself then lmao.)

[Sean]

See the main reason I'm skeptical of this theory is that Classics DS actually had streamed music rather than emulating the games' soundtracks. And not only that but they even remastered the samples used in Sonic 3's music. Here's a pretty clear-cut example:

So basically if I had to guess what happened it's that Sonic 3's music wasn't really problematic for Sega up until around 2011 when S3K saw its final release on Steam; it was soon after that we learned from at least one of the composers that a lawsuit was going on that they didn't want to talk about for understandable reasons. But before that? It's possible that Sega didn't even consider it to be a problem for years.

[Spin Slasher]

I know right because the soundtrack to Sonic 3&K is amazing but We are losing some Tracks but I wish the Lawsuit gets resolved and the original music from the Game by MJ's Team will reappear with permission and Everyone will get use to the music for Sonic Origins' Port of 3&K.

[FReaK]

I grew up with the '97 pc port so..I don't really care for the MJ tracks that much. I'm more curious to hear what changes were made to the "beta tracks" and what instrumentalisation we will get. I doubt Jun will screw this up, I also dont get why people think we will get Sonic 4 styled songs. That would clearly not fit into the rest of the soundtrack, he is surely well aware of that.

[Indigo Rush]

If I can toss my coin into the ring here, my understanding was that they were never supposed to re-release Sonic 3&K with that soundtrack after the initial version according to whatever deal they struck, but... they did it anyway. There were murmurs from the likes of Buxer that SEGA was in a lot of hot water for the Steam version of Sonic 3&K, even. 

I don't know if we'll ever get a definitive answer, but all we know is that the PC version strangely had a different OST and around 2010 Sonic 3(&K) was suddenly off-limits for porting. 

[Sean]

4 minutes ago, Indigo Rush said:

If I can toss my coin into the ring here, my understanding was that they were never supposed to re-release Sonic 3&K with that soundtrack after the initial version according to whatever deal they struck, but... they did it anyway. There were murmurs from the likes of Buxer that SEGA was in a lot of hot water for the Steam version of Sonic 3&K, even. 

I don't know if we'll ever get a definitive answer, but all we know is that the PC version strangely had a different OST and around 2010 Sonic 3(&K) was suddenly off-limits for porting. 

Basically my thinking too. I think Sega was under the assumption that everything was fine and dandy with 3's soundtrack until the composers decided to raise a fuss about it in 2010. And while it is strange that Sega didn't immediately delist the Steam or 360 versions that were still up for sale until recently, it's possible that the composers didn't necessarily demand that Sega take them down or anything. Who knows.

As for the PC soundtrack... I've got no clue why it's the way it is. Based on Sega releasing Sonic Jam and Sonic Classics DS afterwards, my guess is that it was simply easier to work with the demo tracks for the PC's midi arrangements.

[Fyrwudz]

So I'm going to massively oversimplify the situation here, and hold my hands up saying I absolutely know nothing about legal ins-and-outs, but... what exactly could be the likely sticking point in getting the music rights resolved? Obviously it's not in SEGA's interest to drag out a lengthy litigation process but I don't see how we couldn't just have an agreement where [x] percentage of sales of S3&K are paid in royalties to Buxer / MJ's estate. I guess the value of x there could be a big point of contention in itself, or perhaps there's a big can of worms there in crediting other people involved in the composition process...

I guess what I'm saying is, I don't really see who loses if the composers get some royalties and SEGA get to release S3&K intact.

[Blue Blood]

7 minutes ago, Fyrwudz said:

So I'm going to massively oversimplify the situation here, and hold my hands up saying I absolutely know nothing about legal ins-and-outs, but... what exactly could be the likely sticking point in getting the music rights resolved? Obviously it's not in SEGA's interest to drag out a lengthy litigation process but I don't see how we couldn't just have an agreement where [x] percentage of sales of S3&K are paid in royalties to Buxer / MJ's estate. I guess the value of x there could be a big point of contention in itself, or perhaps there's a big can of worms there in crediting other people involved in the composition process...

I guess what I'm saying is, I don't really see who loses if the composers get some royalties and SEGA get to release S3&K intact.

It's all guesswork for us really. There are a number of possibilities.

• SEGA may argue that they own the rights completely, and therefore that don't need to pay any licensing or royalty costs.
• The Jackson estate, Buxter etc might argue that they hold the rights and that SEGA owes them for several years of unpaid royalties, potentially plus compensation. I think that Sirocco specifically mentioned this a few years ago, actually.
• The parties may have already come to an agreement about who owns what, but they don't agree about how much should be paid. 
• Bad blood between SEGA and the other parties could mean that they simply want to cut all ties. That could mean that SEGA doesn't want to work with the people who they are holding their music to ransom, or that the other parties have no interest in my SEGA continue to use their work after years of mistreatment. 

At the end of the day, alternative tracks exist in the form of the PC/beta music. It might just be easier for SEGA to make that the new normal whilst moving forwards. 

[PickleBrows]

If there's any disagreements about how owns what and who's owed what then that might actually explain why the XBLA and Steam listings have been left up all this time.

SEGA in the 2010s might have been avoiding rocking the boat further by not releasing Sonic 3 again, and drawing as little attention to it as possible. Whether they believed they were in any way in the wrong or not, taking down these listings around the time of legal troubles could've been seen as an admission of fault is the lawyers were to start digging. If so, SEGA were basically stuck halfway up the ladder.

The fact that seemingly nothing has really happened since the early 2010s might suggest it's a bigger headache for all involved than is worth. Origins seems to be SEGA's way of future-proofing these games so absolutely expect the S3K soundtrack we get in Origins to be the new default going forward.

 

Spoiler

 

[MetalSkulkBane]

I wonder if they could just publish the game with a new soundtrack and Day 1 release an "anonymous" mod that changes to original music.

[Shaddy Zaphod]

Why would they even need to do that? Even though the different retro engine version + denuvo will prove a challenge, I have no doubt that the original Sonic 3 tracks will be the first mod projects that emerge, probably within days.

[Sonicka]

Just out of interest - is there any word on when the UK Nintendo eshop will have the option to preorder the Digital Deluxe version of this game? 

I’ve been prepared to place my pre-order for quite some time now, but I don’t want to go the way of getting the regular edition game and buying the 2 DLC packs separately - it’s more expensive than purchasing the DD edition with all of it included. 

[Edward850]

1 hour ago, Son-icka said:

Just out of interest - is there any word on when the UK Nintendo eshop will have the option to preorder the Digital Deluxe version of this game?

It's been up for 18 days. Includes Digital Deluxe.

[Sonicka]

6 hours ago, Edward850 said:

It's been up for 18 days. Includes Digital Deluxe.

Weird - I can’t find it anywhere. Not via searching on my Switch or the website..

I know it’s up on the US side - it just seems to be a challenge to preorder this edition in the UK (at least for me it seems)

[Edward850]

Odd. It's up in the Australia/New Zealand region. UK is the same region. Make sure you just search "Origins" on the Switch.

[Sonicka]

1 hour ago, Edward850 said:

Odd. It's up in the Australia/New Zealand region. UK is the same region. Make sure you just search "Origins" on the Switch.

Oddly it's says on the UK Sonic Origins site that this version is "coming soon". I couldn't locate it on the eShop on Nintendo's online website either.

HOWEVER, it appeared this morning when I did a search on my Switch physically again (swear it didn't show up the last couple of days) Bizarre! Oh well! Worked out, thanks!  

[Salamander]

On 6/12/2022 at 9:56 AM, Blue Blood said:

At the end of the day, alternative tracks exist in the form of the PC/beta music. It might just be easier for SEGA to make that the new normal whilst moving forwards. 

Agreed (not least because the Origins releases are likely to form the basis for any further rereleases of the classics going forward).  That SEGA is now, in effect, making new music for the games (even if on some level it's just reworking extant tracks), then that feels like a watershed moment.  They're actually putting fresh work into creating a soundtrack they definitively own, and that says to me that they've given up on the MJ/Buxer/etc. tracks altogether.  In future we might start seeing them frame this as the "original" soundtrack, with the MJ/Buxer tracks having been a "bonus" for the 1994 version of the game.

[Willsy]

I'm a bit torn between whether to keep my Xbox pre-order or move to Switch. On the one hand, I'd have all of the available mainline Sonic games in one place on Xbox. On the other hand, I think it's basically guaranteed Origins will be a good port on Switch and having it handheld would be nice. Plus I have the OLED Switch which Mania at least looks fantastic on. Decisions decisions...

[Indigo Rush]

25 minutes ago, Willsy said:

I'm a bit torn between whether to keep my Xbox pre-order or move to Switch. On the one hand, I'd have all of the available mainline Sonic games in one place on Xbox. On the other hand, I think it's basically guaranteed Origins will be a good port on Switch and having it handheld would be nice. Plus I have the OLED Switch which Mania at least looks fantastic on. Decisions decisions...

The Switch is usually a safe bet for retro games since they're very great to play on the go, and you won't be missing out on any features or visual details on the lower resolution hardware. If you plan on having your Xbox be your one stop shop for Sonic games though, I can certainly see the value in that. 

[Shane]

6 hours ago, Willsy said:

I'm a bit torn between whether to keep my Xbox pre-order or move to Switch. On the one hand, I'd have all of the available mainline Sonic games in one place on Xbox. On the other hand, I think it's basically guaranteed Origins will be a good port on Switch and having it handheld would be nice. Plus I have the OLED Switch which Mania at least looks fantastic on. Decisions decisions...

I'm more confident my Sonic Origins purchase will still be available to me in future generations on Xbox than I'd be if I got it on Switch.