Megathread MT | Sonic Prime (Netflix, TV Series) - General Discussion

[Styx_Linoone]

20 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Like, if you're going to a jungle... why not bring Sticks in?

Really interested to put her next to Gnarly Knuckles and Mangey to see how well she bounces off the two's dynamic. I feel like the latter two are just one halves of Sticks herself.

[Sega DogTagz]

If the point of the shatterverse was to have exaggerated versions of each of the core cast, it wouldn't make sense to bring Sticks in to hang out with hysterical tree people. She'd just be regular Sticks.

 

She'd fit it, but it defeats the concept of the show.

[Strickerx5]

4 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

First, budget. CG shows the need to recycle, it's easier to reuse old models (and voices) than bring new characters.

Second, the whole premise is "Sonic goes to a different dimension and meets an alternative version of his friends. So he can't meet Sticks or Blaze, since the audience wasn't introduced to them in Prime Zone. That's missing the point. Not everyone watching already knows the whole lore.
(And BTW, ironically you picked two characters who are already from a different dimension, so that would be extra confusion.)

First point I won't really argue as I have no idea what they were working with in terms of resources (I know some production pipelines make it a lot easier to include new character assets into shows than some would think but I have no idea if Prime falls into that category).

Though to reiterate on the second point, I typed that all out without knowing about the split personality thing lol. So yeah, it wouldn't make sense in that light. Doesn't really change the fact that I still honestly would've preferred if they had gone with the actual different series continuities over what they're doing currently but that's more of my too far gone Sonic fan side talking. I get why they didn't do that... for multiple reasons (too niche, too much baggage, possible legal bs, ect. ect.).

Though, on a side note, Sticks is canon now so she doesn't technically fall in that different dimension category anymore. Hell, we don't know what the crossover in viewers of this show and Boom but seeing as Sticks is mainly a tv driven character at the moment... might not have been the worst call to introduce her again here. Also, Sega has clearly shown that they'll pull Blaze in whenever and for whatever reason so it wouldn't have been a stretch to just have her in GHZ if they had wanted it lol. Again, I get why they probably didn't want that tho

 

Idk, the more I think about it, the more I really don't jive with the split personalities so far. If they are suppose to be different sides of the characters versus just different dimensional versions entirely then what part of Tails was ever made out to be feral? When did Amy ever show signs of being pirate like? When did Big do anythinghave any moment to show that he has a fighting side to him? It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me with how they're doing this.

Like, crystal cracks; so do their personalities. Ok, that checks. Though with that said, so far a lot of their different versions don't do a good job at showing that and scream more of "we wanted Rouge to be a pirate so here yeah". Which, you know, isn't the biggest deal. Again, I still enjoyed watching the show and some of it does work (Nine and Throny being standout examples imo). But I'm still left wishing they had taken a different approach with some of this.

[Sega DogTagz]

32 minutes ago, Strickerx5 said:

 then what part of Tails was ever made out to be feral?

It could be an extrapolation of his loyalty. There is a part of him that blindly follows the leader and is meek enough to follow the strongest personality in the room. Not to different from a dog.

 

Perhaps the Feral representation is his passive personality in the absence of intelligence.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

1 hour ago, Sega DogTagz said:

1 hour ago, Strickerx5 said:

 then what part of Tails was ever made out to be feral?

It could be an extrapolation of his loyalty. There is a part of him that blindly follows the leader and is meek enough to follow the strongest personality in the room. Not to different from a dog.

Perhaps the Feral representation is his passive personality in the absence of intelligence.

I think that idea might be that the crystal effectively focuses on every section of the victim's consciousness, even subconscious bits buried deep within, and brings them to the surface in each dimension.

[FunkDoc1112]

The movie aside, I've noticed a lot of modern Sonic media emphasize Sonic's aloofness a lot more than the past, at least on the Western side of things. The old 90s cartoons went the route of the typical "radical" showoffy goofball but from Sonic Boom onward he's more of a snarky loner who takes people for granted.

[MetalSkulkBane]

8 hours ago, Strickerx5 said:

Also, Sega has clearly shown that they'll pull Blaze in whenever and for whatever reason so it wouldn't have been a stretch to just have her in GHZ if they had wanted it lol. Again, I get why they probably didn't want that tho

Idk, the more I think about it, the more I really don't jive with the split personalities so far. If they are suppose to be different sides of the characters versus just different dimensional versions entirely then what part of Tails was ever made out to be feral? When did Amy ever show signs of being pirate like? When did Big do anythinghave any moment to show that he has a fighting side to him? It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me with how they're doing this.

Like, crystal cracks; so do their personalities. Ok, that checks. Though with that said, so far a lot of their different versions don't do a good job at showing that and scream more of "we wanted Rouge to be a pirate so here yeah". Which, you know, isn't the biggest deal. Again, I still enjoyed watching the show and some of it does work (Nine and Throny being standout examples imo). But I'm still left wishing they had taken a different approach with some of this.

Considering recent... everything I'm pretty sure they would put much more thought into Blaze showing up. Flynn was a story consultant.

 

As for split personalities, you probably shouldn't think that deeply about it. Jungle world is Amy story, so Thorn is a reflection of Amy. Everyone else is prompt. Scavengers could be a bunch of random Mobians but it's more convenient to use Tails, Rouge and Knuckles.

But if you insist there must be logic, then consider this: Nature Vs Nurture. Those universes are vaaaastly different environments to Prime Zone.
Why Amy became a pirate? Because this is a pirate world, where (as far as we know) 90% of population are pirates. At least she's one least wanting to attack Sonic, so she's still nicer, when Rouge is evil-ish.
Why Jungle Tails is dumb? Because he lives in primitive, harsh and danger environment. He has no time and occasion to develop his smarts. He must be as feral as possible to survive.

[Rabbitearsblog]

At this point, I could care less about how this show is supposed to be canon to the games or not. There's only 8 episodes released, so we really have no idea what's really going on with this show. I would wait until we get all 26 episodes to see where this show actually falls in canon (that's if the show's writers and crew want to explain all that at some point).

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

11 hours ago, Rabbitearsblog said:

At this point, I could care less about how this show is supposed to be canon to the games or not. There's only 8 episodes released, so we really have no idea what's really going on with this show. I would wait until we get all 26 episodes to see where this show actually falls in canon (that's if the show's writers and crew want to explain all that at some point).

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I really don't dig the decision that Netlfix made to chop up the first season into quarters, since I feel that it somewhat messes with the story intake. We're literally receiving an incomplete narrative presented as a "season".

[MGA_Gamer]

11 minutes ago, Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon said:

I've said it before, and I'll say it again. I really don't dig the decision that Netlfix made to chop up the first season into quarters, since I feel that it somewhat messes with the story intake. We're literally receiving an incomplete narrative presented as a "season".

This is common practice with Netflix shows. The Cuphead Show and Oddballs are guilty of this too.

[JezMM]

Finished watching all 8 today.  Putting aside my loathing of binge culture and how it means we have to discuss all these episodes as a big mass instead of individually, yeah it was pretty good!

Very few of the jokes land for me, it's not about to beat out Sonic Boom on funniest Sonic cartoon, but every episode had one or two chuckles.  There's a little bit of a habit for repetitive dialogue that bugs me, like Sonic never shutting up about chilli dogs, or how they'll say "Look what the cat dragged in" for a gag and then have "Look what the hedgehog dragged in" only a few minutes later without it being any sort of callback.  A general reliance on clichés at times but... all of the above is within the realm of "it's for kids and it ain't trying to be universally appealing pixar quality stuff".

The action scenes are actually startlingly good.  Sometimes they get a bit messy or fall into formulaic "let's make sure every character gets one shot of doing A Thing" but for the most part they all feel pretty satisfyingly original with lots of creative ways to use the characters' unique abilities, Sonic especially.

The animation is just wonderful.  Sonic and friends have never looked so full of life and energy and emotion, which makes me really glad the designs are mostly faithful to the games with a few bits of flair here and there.  It's great to see canon Sonic characters moving like this at last.  The "NPCs" could be a little more varied, it feels like there's literally like, 3 of them and they're all so similar.  Even the background NPCs in Forces felt a little more varied, and Sonic Boom runs circles around what's on offer here.  Scenery is definitely a LITTLE static feeling but it's not bad at all.  The flashback sprite art sections are cute in concept but annoyingly low quality.  They could've done with having just one extra "Sonic's world" location to work with other than implying everyone entirely hangs out in Green Hill the whole time, which feels a bit off compared to game canon, which is meant to at least be the start point.  It would have literally been more appealing if they had just used the actual sprite art from the games instead of a cheap imitation of them.

Story-wise I'm enjoying the interlinked nature of the various worlds.  While some stuff feels a little episodic along the way like the jungle arc and the pirates who just party all the time etc, it's never too long until series-wide plot threads are getting touched upon again, and I'm glad worlds have started interacting with each other and the New Yolk City world has become such a throughline as early as these first 8 episodes.  There's a little bit of an over-reliance on in media res and flashback stuff to artificially add intrigue, and the moral aspects of the jungle arc fell a bit flat to me - the plot depended on the scavengers being complete and utter idiots and for Amy to completely and utterly overreact to said idiocy, and the constant callbacks to the time Amy surprised Sonic by... showing him a tree on a day once that everyone had a completely boring and arbitrary story about.  Finally, while the Chaos Council is a fun and unique concept, the utter lack of vanilla Eggman content is pretty strange.  None of them are quite as charismatically fun as him on their own or as a unit, it really doesn't feel like he's around.

Voices are decent, though Tails and Knuckles are so deep it took me a while to get used to them.  I'm getting along with Sonic, Rouge and Amy's voices splendidly though.  It's just great to have more Rouge content in general, although all these alternate versions of characters being quite different from their normal counterparts or living lives that don't allow their normal counterparts to show off what they're known for does cause some awkwardness there.

Overall though, yeah, pretty pleasantly surprised by this, I'm enjoying it a lot!  It's tough to compare it until we've seen the full thing but so far it's probably OVERALL the best Sonic cartoon on offer, even if I feel Sonic X and Sonic Boom handled emotional and comedic elements much better at their best respectively.  Prime definitely has the best action sequences of any Sonic cartoon, no doubt.

[juiceDpunk983]

Anyone know when the next batch of episodes drop? I'm enjoying this show, especially Shadow and how he's trying to get to Sonic because of how he's broken the world. He's like a wise Hedgehog in this show and some what teaching Sonic, like telling him to focus and stop being reckless, plus his voice reminds me of the Heroes era a little bit.

Wonder if the humans were around in Nine's universe and if they were, I wonder if they're under the Egg council too, or is it just New Yoke City, and the Mobians under the council.

Bet at the end of the show, Super Sonic and Super Shadow fix the planet by somehow glueing the shatter spaces into one world again.

[shdowhunt60]

16 hours ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

Considering recent... everything I'm pretty sure they would put much more thought into Blaze showing up. Flynn was a story consultant.

As for split personalities, you probably shouldn't think that deeply about it. Jungle world is Amy story, so Thorn is a reflection of Amy. Everyone else is prompt. Scavengers could be a bunch of random Mobians but it's more convenient to use Tails, Rouge and Knuckles.

But if you insist there must be logic, then consider this: Nature Vs Nurture. Those universes are vaaaastly different environments to Prime Zone.
Why Amy became a pirate? Because this is a pirate world, where (as far as we know) 90% of population are pirates. At least she's one least wanting to attack Sonic, so she's still nicer, when Rouge is evil-ish.
Why Jungle Tails is dumb? Because he lives in primitive, harsh and danger environment. He has no time and occasion to develop his smarts. He must be as feral as possible to survive.

The thing is, is that we don't see that radical of a change in any other character in the Jungle world. I don't think that is working with the messaging the show is working with. Nine and Sails work because at their core they're both still Tails. They're fundamentally the same person. 

Mangey doesn't work because Tails has never shown any sort of proclivity towards feral behavior. And the show even goes out of its way to even show that even when the times were relatively good that Mangey is still participating in the same behavior. They could've shown Mangey working on stuff like traps, simple machines, and other primitive technology (and it would be topical, those videos have been super popular on YouTube in the past year or two).

It just seems like they spun the wheel to chose a character to be feral for the caveman episode and landed on Tails, because hey he's a fox and foxes and dogs are totally the same thing right guys? (they're not) It just feels like a bunch of wasted potential considering how fleshed out and three-dimensional Nine is in comparison. That scene where Sonic told Mangey how to fly had me laughing for the wrong reasons because it totally came out of nowhere, and its like the producers were like "oh shit we forgot that Tails can totally fly, quick get a scene in here".

Also can we talk about how mean of a name Mangey is in comparison to everyone else? I mean, it's one thing to point out and say "hey you got an extra tail", but mange is a pretty nasty skin disease, and naming somebody after that just seems really cruel. Even in a relatively harsh environment like the ones in this universe are supposedly.

[Sonictrainer]

3 hours ago, shdowhunt60 said:

The thing is, is that we don't see that radical of a change in any other character in the Jungle world. I don't think that is working with the messaging the show is working with. Nine and Sails work because at their core they're both still Tails. They're fundamentally the same person. 

If you can ignore that Gnarly Knuckles is literally Sticks.

Also, I liked the Jungle Shatterspace because Sonic had to actually think for himself without Tails or the other to help him.

(Plus, the Shovel Claw Power-Up and green running animation was cool)

[Sega DogTagz]

5 hours ago, shdowhunt60 said:

The thing is, is that we don't see that radical of a change in any other character in the Jungle world. I don't think that is working with the messaging the show is working with. Nine and Sails work because at their core they're both still Tails. They're fundamentally the same person.

 

Mangy is just Tails with his core characteristic cranked down from 100 to 0. If you remove all of something's intelligence, your going to be left with something... a bit feral.

 

When you think about it, its really not any more of a departure than Rusty Rose, whom had all her compassion removed - or Dread who got all his determination nerfed. Its just the total removal of one of the defining qualities of a character.

 

[shdowhunt60]

22 hours ago, Sonictrainer said:

If you can ignore that Gnarly Knuckles is literally Sticks.

Yeah, but Knuckles in the show has demonstrated in all worlds to demonstrate some level of predisposition towards paranoia. So that's consistent. My problem is, is that they don't do anything interesting with it in the Jungle Knuckles episode, and that Knuckles as a person feels like he's really poorly defined. Which feels really ironic considering how much refocusing he's had with the Sonic Movies and Sonic Frontiers.

Some of my issues with Sonic Prime are the ways that it feels really out of step with the rest of the franchise, which an explicit goal stated by Iizuka and others is to tightly bring all the various aspects of the Sonic franchise together, but that's (literally) a different topic altogether.

22 hours ago, Sonictrainer said:

Also, I liked the Jungle Shatterspace because Sonic had to actually think for himself without Tails or the other to help him.

(Plus, the Shovel Claw Power-Up and green running animation was cool)

Sure, and I'm actually totally with that, especially since a lot of the other episodes Sonic can feel really daft. So seeing him having to intuit and navigate things by himself is nice, I agree. I'm complaining about a specific aspect of the story, which I find really lacking and that's Mangey himself. A lot of the other complaints I could make, I feel like I could level at the series as a whole so far.

20 hours ago, Sega DogTagz said:

Mangy is just Tails with his core characteristic cranked down from 100 to 0. If you remove all of something's intelligence, your going to be left with something... a bit feral.

When you think about it, its really not any more of a departure than Rusty Rose, whom had all her compassion removed - or Dread who got all his determination nerfed. Its just the total removal of one of the defining qualities of a character.

The difference between Rusty and the others is that her personality has been forcefully removed. Her personality right now is just robot. That's it. We don't know who Rusty really is, is because her very person is gone right now, and all she is, is an accessory for whoever is using her. This is probably something that down the road is going to be fleshed out as she rediscovers who she is, but I'm going to hazard that its gonna be along the same lines as other versions of Amy.

Black Rose didn't really get the chance to be fleshed out, but Thorn is an interesting subversion of Amy's classic compassion where she invests all her compassion to the Jungle and doesn't extend it to the other survivors... At least on paper, I think the scripting kind of undermines that, but I do like the idea. I just think the execution is kinda underwhelming.

I don't think Knuckles losing his determination is something that's that out of character. I think something intrinsic to Knuckles is that he's inherently risk adverse. So being met with a big loss where he loses pretty much everything, yeah. I can completely see that taking the wind out of his sails (heh). I don't wanna call this underdeveloped, because I think we're going to see more of Dread down the line, but I think what was shown is in line so far.

Mangey doesn't work for me. Unless you're telling me he got hit on the head at an early age, I mean... He's around other people to learn from. I don't think the idea of Tails turning feral is even all that interesting, outside of the shock value, I already pitched an idea of what a Tails in a primitive environment could look like.

There's other stuff I could pick at that I find poorly developed, and that all kind of results in a show that so far is a pretty big mixed bag. I like a lot of the art. I like a lot of the environments. I think the animation is pretty cool, especially coming off of how lacking the action was in Sonic Boom. Pretty neat to see how expressive the characters can be even though they're using similar designs to the main games, would be cool to see Sonic Team work on that. I really like Nine specifically as a character, I think he's exceptionally well executed especially in comparison to everyone else. Hopefully we get more characters stepping up, would be nice to see a version of Rouge or Big get to do something interesting.

I don't like the chaos council, I think the pacing is pretty messy, the script makes me cringe in a way a Sonic game hasn't in a long while, and those are pretty big issues. I like the show, but again. Mixed bag for me.

[Sega DogTagz]

3 hours ago, shdowhunt60 said:

The difference between Rusty and the others is that her personality has been forcefully removed. Her personality right now is just robot. That's it. We don't know who Rusty really is, is because her very person is gone right now, and all she is, is an accessory for whoever is using her. This is probably something that down the road is going to be fleshed out as she rediscovers who she is, but I'm going to hazard that its gonna be along the same lines as other versions of Amy.

It doesn't particularly matter why Rusty is the way she is. She still represents Amy at a compassion level of zero.

Just like dang near every alt character, she had the potential to develop and actually get some of what she's missing back, but that doesn't change the conceptual representation of her character. The same goes for Mangy and the same goes for Dread.

 

 

3 hours ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Black Rose didn't really get the chance to be fleshed out, but Thorn is an interesting subversion of Amy's classic compassion where she invests all her compassion to the Jungle and doesn't extend it to the other survivors... At least on paper, I think the scripting kind of undermines that, but I do like the idea. I just think the execution is kinda underwhelming.

 

Thorn is pretty much Amy with her compassion swung in the other direction. Cranked up to 200% to the point where she becomes fanatical and blind to everything else. She was given enough screen time up front to develop and back off that hill due to exposure to Sonic and a revelation of the harm she was causing her former friends.

 

Prime is fairly consistent in the "main character" alts. Its the same guy/girl you know, minus Sonic's influences and one of the personalty sliders moved all the way to one side.

 

3 hours ago, shdowhunt60 said:

I don't think Knuckles losing his determination is something that's that out of character.

 

Since when was Knuckles the type to give up? Since when did Knuckles let his fear get the best of him? Knux loosing his gumption is very out of character, and that is the point.

 

Dread was a coward who avoided conflict and neglected his duties as Captain. Its the complete absence of his dedication to the role of Guardian and the bravery to face anything and everything that stands in the way of his mission.

 

3 hours ago, shdowhunt60 said:

 

I think something intrinsic to Knuckles is that he's inherently risk adverse. So being met with a big loss where he loses pretty much everything, yeah. I can completely see that taking the wind out of his sails (heh).

 

There is risk averse and then there is cowardice. Dread was far beyond risk averse. Furthermore, he had to be talked out of abandoning his crew when they needed him most.

 

 

3 hours ago, shdowhunt60 said:

Mangey doesn't work for me. Unless you're telling me he got hit on the head at an early age, I mean... He's around other people to learn from. I don't think the idea of Tails turning feral is even all that interesting, outside of the shock value, I already pitched an idea of what a Tails in a primitive environment could look like.

 

You may not like how it is represented, but Mangy is as conceptually sound as both Rusty and Dread.

 

 

[Kuzu]

I dunno, I feel like outside of New Yoke, they just spun a wheel on character traits for the Jungle and Pirate Worlds.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

So, given the concept of the Crystal, I am interested to see potential future worlds (and by extension more different takes on the characters' personalities) to come in later "seasons" of the show.

[HywelAtTheMoon]

Not sure if anyone already said this, but Rusty Rose was made into a cyborg by Nine, not the Council. Take a look at the mechs the Council use (clean, shiny), and compare them to Nine's (scrappy, dirty). 

Also, how do you think Nine reprogrammed her that quickly right before Sonic touched the shard?

That's just my theory. 

Edited December 22, 2022 by HywelAtTheMoon
Missed words out.

[caitash]

The best thing about this show for me is that it could go in so many directions. There’s 16 episodes left, enough time to go to more new worlds and also enough time to be properly stitching them together more. So many theories about both Nine (where he’s going as a character) and Rusty Rose (where she’s been/had done to her before) and I’m enjoying every possibility for both of them. They’re respectively my first and second favourite characters in the show.

Did thoroughly enjoy Batten Rouge’s accent as well. What even is it? The pirate accent has roots in the UK’s south-west accent, but Rouge’s has a slight variation to it. I can swear I hear a little bit of another accent at times in there as well. Possibly Welsh? Either way I love it. Actually - accents aside - I really love that the character’s voices vary a bit with each different world. Nice touch.

I know I said earlier that the tornado line made my eye twitch but I think that was because it was so out of context in that preview clip. There are many small changes like that to make the world work and it kinda ties together a bit more for the purposes of the show.

I need the next batch of episodes in my eyeballs. I see some people have said ‘next month’ for new episodes but no idea what their sources are for that as I can’t find anything official and don’t want to get my hopes up for it being that soon. 

[Sega DogTagz]

I never considered having the alt world bleed over into each other, so the moment when Rusty popped up in the Pirate World was quite a shock.

 

That opens a lot of doors. If they aren't afraid to let alt versions of characters meet themselves, you've really opened the doors to character combo's that can't be done anywhere else. I wanna see a gaggle of Rouge's all try to out-scheme each other. That would be spectacular.

[Blaze]

On 12/18/2022 at 10:14 PM, Strickerx5 said:

Yeah I absolutely did not pick up on that. I mean, it makes sense now that you said it but I also agree that the show really doesn't do a good enough job in explaining it. I guess if others picked up on it then maybe I just didn't pay enough attention but like... yeah I don't think so.

Yeah I think there were two videos on the YouTube channel Filmento that explained how both Sonic movies broke the "video game-movie curse" and that "curse" is possibly entirely to do with the issue at hand here. The problem is not re-establishing relationships in the context of the show itself for both new and returning audiences, and assuming that all knowledge and Easter eggs from the source material will be recognised for important plot points.
 

(The videos went through how the Sonic movies establish knowledge and re-establish relationships in the context of the film, e.g. relation between Sonic & Tails in the film, the drawing of Sanic being used not just as an Easter egg but by someone to confirm sonic's existence and later acceptance by the townspeople. Also they don’t introduce too many characters at once all in the first movie and without context, like yellow sonic, red sonic, lol )

it’s not just important for new audiences, but also for existing audiences of Sonic to reinforce what the characters are like. Especially because we've seen SO many takes on Sonic over the decades lol. I suppose that they wanted to start the show right off on the core premise (the shatter incident), which is a pity because it would have been nice to have some build up.

And haha I also thought the same as you did actually about Tails being feral in the jungle (did not come to mind what part of his personality it was), and completely did not occur for Dread being treasure hunter aspect of Knuckles.

Edited December 22, 2022 by Blaze

[MetalSkulkBane]

Not everyone Alternative version of character will be a well though out reflection of the character.
In Pirate World, Knuckles is main character. Piracy can be seen as different take on Treasure Hunting. But Tails and Amy are here, because... they have to be here. That's it. Don't overthink it. If it fits (Rouge being thief, Big being... sea oriented) that's bonus. But sometimes things just are

 

You know, I really wonder if next seasons can squeeze at least couple more characters. Since Big wasn't in the cave when Prism broke, Chaotix or Cream would have to be just relatively close to exist in those dimension. (Blaze and Silver, sigh, will always be tricky).

I also wonder how many Shatterplaces are left. I know that Paradox Prism had only 4 colors and we already seen 3 shards, but if Grim has last one, this was a very small Multiverse.

Because if we're already done with both topics and next 16 episodes are bouncing back and forth between established characters and places, I'm gonna be disappointed.

[HywelAtTheMoon]

It's also interesting that we haven't seen any alternative Sonics (yet). You could explain why Shadow doesn't have any due to the Chaos Control he did right before the shockwave hit him.