Sonic the Hedgehog 4

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Unless the definition regarding "going back to the roots" has eased up, I don't think this game is going back than it is taking a trip down memory lane in terms of gameplay and style.

Of course with only 25 seconds of footage, and little info afterwards, it could really lean in any direction but taking the 3D route at this moment.

We could very well see some new things in this game to further complement the nostalgia, be it extra unlockable characters, movesets, or stuff like that. Or it could just be exactly like the Classics...I hope it's more the former tho.

[Kiljoy]

I would be happy if by "going back to the roots: meant just game-play and that the game is the next step in the sonic time-line. I just don't want a crappy story and bad characters, like Shadow or that retard Big.

[speedfreak]

Well I hate to break it to you, but if any "modern" Sonic characters make the cut then Shadow is almost certain to show up.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Even if they went with every character in the series, if it's like the Classics then they'll be optional, so there's little to complain about in that regard.

Don't like Big or Shadow, don't play as him. The only problem would be if they pulled an Adventure and made it mandatory to play as all the other characters just to get the usual Super Sonic ending and stuff. The optional they are, the better. Everybody get what they want...well, almost.

[Badnik Zero]

The reason the 16-bit cast is loved above the others is because they made the series. It's not because they're older or whatever. They debuted in what some of us consider to be the best games. So they have that charm. Take the Sonic OVA, replace Knuckles with Rouge, Tails with Chip, and Metal Sonic with Emerl. Would it be fun? It could be, but it would be a different story, and it's not a story that could be told in 1996. With a name like Needlemouse, you really don't expect anything more complicated than that. If Sega wants to boost the popularity of some other cast members, they could feature them in a good game. I'm not saying other cast members are bad, I just don't understand why people would expect them in a retro title. And yeah I'm assuming it's a proper retro game. If it bothers some people, they should notice this whole 90-page thread is assumptions on a teaser trailer.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The reason the 16-bit cast is loved above the others is because they made the series.

Technically Sonic and Eggman made the series, while Tails, Amy, Metal Sonic and Knuckles (in that order) expanded the series followed by the rest of the characters.

It's not because they're older or whatever.

Then why do people keep saying they deserve more because "they came first" in those exact words or similar words? (not saying that you said that)

If it wasn't because of that, we damn sure wouldn't be bringing that up as leverage against them.

They debuted in what some of us consider to be the best games. So they have that charm.

I'm not trying to be a killjoy when I say this, but they lost that charm at the same time the "modern" characters did. Nowadays people still give them more credit than I think they really deserve.

And it's kinda strange how people are such flip-flops nowadays because a lot of these same people considered SA1, 2, and Heroes to an extent to be among the series best games, and then they somehow went back on that and put them in the same bin as the bad games years afterwards. Ah well, anyways...

Take the Sonic OVA, replace Knuckles with Rouge, Tails with Chip, and Metal Sonic with Emerl. Would it be fun? It could be, but it would be a different story, and it's not a story that could be told in 1996.

You're kinda discrediting you're argument when you say that the characters made the series instead of them being around earlier, yet bring up how the OVA wouldn't be a story that can be told in 1996.

Regardless, dates mean nothing. Shakespear wrote greater masterpieces than Sonic has way before he was even concieved and they can outdo plenty of other forms of literature years after its time, so I seriously doubt that it couldn't be a story that can be told in 1996, especially with various other stories before Sonic (retro or not) that have similar structure. I'm pretty sure they could've told a story like that 20 or 30 years before 1996, especially when all you're doing is just replacing 3 characters.

I'm not saying other cast members are bad, I just don't understand why people would expect them in a retro title. And yeah I'm assuming it's a proper retro game.

Well for all we know this may just be a throwback that has more similarities with old-school Sonic than any other game before it, but with added features (characters, abilities, etc.) to make it stand out a lot more than it's predecessors. Wouldn't be much to hype about (to me atleast) if it was exactly the same as the classics before it with nothing new to stand out from their shadow.

Being retro doesn't automatically exclude everything after the classics from setting foot on it, so it's still anyone's guess on it. Not saying that they should, but they just might put in the so called "modern" characters as additions to this retro title, as unlockables, or optional content from the start.

...tho it's kinda funny how this whole thing started simply because someone said that Shadow didn't offer anything new to the table. Ah, we don't change too much, do we?

Edited October 23, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Badnik Zero]

You're kinda discrediting you're argument when you say that the characters made the series, yet bring up how it wouldn't be a story that can be told in 1996.

I meant more like those characters are the classic formula. The clingy sidekick friend and punchy independent friend are classic Sonic. You could replace them, but what you'd get wouldn't be exactly classic. But you said...

This may just be a throwback that has more similarities with old-school Sonic than any other game before it, but with added features (characters, abilities, etc.) to make it stand out a lot more than it's predecessors.

... And I agree with that. I'd be alright with a hybrid, like 16-bit gameplay with modern cast. It just seems like a lot of people are trying to deny classic Sonic. I still think there's a difference between classic and modern.

...tho it's kinda funny how this whole thing started simply because someone said that Shadow didn't offer anything new to the table. Ah, we don't change too much, do we?

Is that how it started? I'd defend Shadow in that case, you can always expand a character. But that'd look like playing both sides. I really just try to love the classics while enjoying the new stuff. Is it so impossible?

[Phos]

Technically Sonic and Eggman made the series, while Tails, Amy, Metal Sonic and Knuckles (in that order) expanded the series followed by the rest of the characters.

Not what Stretchy was referring to. They made the series popular.

Then why do people keep saying they deserve more because "they came first" in those exact words or similar words? (not saying that you said that)

Straw Man.

And it's kinda strange how people are such flip-flops nowadays because a lot of these same people considered SA1, 2, and Heroes to an extent to be among the series best games, and then they somehow went back on that and put them in the same bin as the bad games years afterwards.

Different people.

They're better characters. Simple as that. Regardless, Shadow being in this game would be like bringing an Escalade to the Monterey Historics.

[Blazey Firekitty]

I don't think that extra characters, regardless of who they are, will cause any problems as long as we are not forced to play as them in order to get a "true ending."

Black Knight had optional characters, so perhaps that bodes well for this game.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

It just seems like a lot of people are trying to deny classic Sonic.

Quite frankly I'd like this wall between Classic and Modern to be torn down, but that's not gonna happen any time soon.

But that'd look like playing both sides.

Nothing wrong with being the middle man, Stretchy Werewolf. I play it all the time, like I am right now.

They made the series popular.

Same thing, Sonic and Eggman. It was the gameplay that really made it popular, not exactly the characters.

Straw Man.

Not it's not. That's exactly what people have been saying in regards to the Classic characters: basically they came first, so they get more.

They're better characters. Simple as that.

Then why do they suck? Every character (yes, Tails, Amy, and Knuckles included) in the series nowadays sucks since Sonic Team screwed them over. They've have shitty development, shitty gameplay, shitty personalities, etc. And yet somehow, these three shitty characters that were around during the Classics are better than all the other equally shitty characters? Must've missed that memo.

Such favoritism...

With that, I might as well say Big and Shadow are way better characters than Tails and Knuckles and deserve to be in this game over them. Simple as that, huh Phos?

Regardless, Shadow being in this game would be like bringing an Escalade to the Monterey Historics.

Riiight...and 25 secs of footage told you that?

Edited October 23, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Marcello]

About Shadow using Chaos Control and stuff: doesn't he need a Chaos emerald to do that?

And I think people like Tails and Knuckles most, could also be because of the comics and other media in the 90's. The 3 were on everything. I don't remember lots of things from the 3D games, like lunch boxes and stuff like that. People grew up with the classic 3.

[Phos]

Same thing, Sonic and Eggman. It was the gameplay that really made it popular, not exactly the characters.

I don't think you're giving Sonic enough credit here. If gameplay was all it took to get people to buy a game, we'd still be seeing Vectorman games made by Blue Sky.

Then why do they suck? Every character (yes, Tails, Amy, and Knuckles included) in the series nowadays sucks since Sonic Team screwed them over. They've have shitty development, shitty gameplay, shitty personalities, etc. And yet somehow, these three shitty characters that were around during the Classics are better than all the other equally shitty characters? Must've missed that memo.

Indeed, they've all taken a turn for the worse, but but here's the distinction: Shadow, Silver, and the like were created by the newer incarnations of Sonic Team, meaning that their backstory is rife with the rot that isn't present in the backstories of the characters created back when Sonic Team could actually make something charming. Strip away the cruft off of one of the classic characters, and you still have something left. Do the same with one of the newer characters, and nothing remains.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

About Shadow using Chaos Control and stuff: doesn't he need a Chaos emerald to do that?

Nope. He can do it without a Chaos emerald, but it's less powerful.

And I think people like Tails and Knuckles most, could also be because of the comics and other media in the 90's. The 3 were on everything. I don't remember lots of things from the 3D games, like lunch boxes and stuff like that. People grew up with the classic 3.

I can understand growing up and prefering character, but instantly labeling them as better characters when they're in the same rut as the rest of the cast is something completely different.

I think the whole cast sucks, yet I still like Sonic, Shadow, Tails, Knuckles, Rouge, etc. and think they can do so much better than they are now. I can like a character more than another, but you can't say to my face that X character is an outright better character than Y, atleast not in the way Phos put it. That can work for just about any other character, and then we're right back at square one.

To me, saying you prefer a character over another is far different than saying a character is better than another character.

I don't think you're giving Sonic enough credit here. If gameplay was all it took to get people to buy a game, we'd still be seeing Vectorman games made by Blue Sky.

Hmm...why don't we? Either way, yes I'll admit Sonic did have an attitude and a bit of a personality which helped attract a lot more attention, but the bulk of that came from the gameplay. The attitude, however, was icing on the cake. But aside from Knuckles, you can't exactly say the same for Tails and Amy.

Strip away the cruft off of one of the classic characters, and you still have something left. Do the same with one of the newer characters, and nothing remains.

Haha, bull to the shit. Strip away the backstories that fuck up the characters, but keep the character itself and they still have their abilities. Take away Shadow's past, he still has his Chaos powers; forget Silver came from the future, he still has telekinesis; Ditch the interdimensional bullshit behind Blaze and she still has her pyrokinesis.

Just like if you were to take away whatever character development Tails has (can't put my finger on it, but I know he has it) he can still fly and fight with his tails; take awan the whole guardianship thing with Knuckles and he can still punch through rocks; forget Amy's development and she can still fuck you up with that hammer of hers. The bad stuff's gone, but many of them still have something left.

Again, the same general stuff you can do with the classic characters, you can do with the newer character. Denying that is just blind discrimination against other characters. It's not that black and white, Phos.

Edited October 23, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Marcello]

This may sound weird but: I agree with CSS about not being able to just one character is better than another one, I also agree with Phos about the newer ST people making the backstorys for the newer characters being worse. The games up to SA2 seemed really nicely connected and stuff to me, but nowadays they feel a bit weird...

[Badnik Zero]

That's exactly what people have been saying in regards to the Classic characters: basically they came first, so they get more.

They came first, but that's not why people like them. They were around for all the best games of the series. The Adventure games are good, but all the characters introduced in them went on to star in games that have just been embarrassing to the franchise. If Sega's smart they'll use this game to gain some cred and mainstream Sonic again. Sonic hit his peak popularity in the '90s, so it makes sense to start with stuff that's familiar to people.

As for Shadow (and this goes for others too), I honestly tried to think of how he'd look and feel in a classic game, and they'd really have to reinvent them. They could do it, like the teleport thing we mentioned, but other characters are so much more... safe. I just don't want them to mess it up, because this is an game I've been waiting for.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

They came first, but that's not why people like them.

That's the excuse many throw at me whenever I say something against it...if it were anything what you said in prefering rather than puting them on an all-mighty pedestal, I certainly wouldn't be arguing.

They were around for all the best games of the series. The Adventure games are good, but all the characters introduced in them went on to star in games that have just been embarrassing to the franchise.

Only one character did that, and his one game brought down not just the character himself, but every other character with him as well.

I can understand that they were around for the best of the games, but when two characters come in at different times, but turn shitty at the same time in the future, it another thing entirely to say that X character is better than Y because he was around during the good times.

Not refering to you when I say this, but when that so called character heirarchy starts building up in which character deserves more and which charater "isn't necessary anymore", I'm gonna tear it down. Period. That stuff just isn't called for. If you prefer X over Y, while I prefer X AND Y, that's cool with me. But if you tell me that X deserves more than Y because of Z reason, I'm just gonna laugh and say otherwise and move on. That's just how I am.

Things shouldn't be put into a hierarchy like that.

As for Shadow (and this goes for others too), I honestly tried to think of how he'd look and feel in a classic game, and they'd really have to reinvent them.

That's what I certainly recommend if this game is how we think it is.

They could do it, like the teleport thing we mentioned, but other characters are so much more... safe.

I don't know what constitutes as "safe", but it's not like they bring any harm with them.

I just don't want them to mess it up, because this is an game I've been waiting for.

If they're optional, they're not gonna mess it up. If anything, it's always been the 2D games that gave you the option of playing as a different character. Regardless, while it's more than likely Sonic, Tails, Knuckles, and Eggman are in, we still don't even know who's made the cut.

Edited October 23, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Phos]

Uh, bull to the shit. Strip away the backstories, but keep the character and they still have their abilities. Take away Shadow's past, he still has his Chaos powers; forget Silver came from the future, he still has telekinesis; Ditch the interdimensional bullshit behind Blaze and she still has her pyrokinesis.

Would that really be an acceptable change in your eyes, and would they really still be the same character? I decided to ask the internet what it means to be a character. The definition that seems to fit the best was:

the aggregate of features and traits that form the individual nature of some person or thing.

So I'm going to say they wouldn't be the same character. I'd like to mention that doing a complete reintroduction was going to be an example for Reductio ad Absurdum.

Just like if you were to take away whatever character development Tails has (can't put my finger on it, but I know he has it) he can still fly and fight with his tails; take awan the whole guardianship thing with Knuckles and he can still punch through rocks.

Tails had some nice development in Adventure 1, and Iizuka liked it so much, he decided to have Tails go through the same character arc again in SA 2. In the classic games, he also went from being bullied to being a valuable asset in Sonic's world saving career.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Would that really be an acceptable change in your eyes, and would they really still be the same character?

Not really, and no they wouldn't. Every single character from Sonic to Silver would be puppets with nothing but super powers wrecking any robot that comes in their path.

But it's balanced. If there's something left for Tails and Knuckles when you take their development away, there's still something left for every other character. There's nothing in Tails and Knuckles background or abilities make them superior to any other characters in anyway; Anything you say and use in support for them can also be used in support for other characters. If you can say Shadow has nothing left when stripped of his development, I can easily say the same thing for Tails under the same circumstances. It gets us nowhere but in an endless argument that makes us look silly. (and I like silly. )

They have strengths, they have weaknesses, they have faults, and they have development. While these traits can make one character stand out to someone over another one, none of these traits have anything in them that makes one character better or more deserving of anything over another character.

So I'm going to say they wouldn't be the same character.

Then from the way you put it, none of the characters would be the same character. Take away any of the backstories and development any of the character's have, then all of them, Tails, Knuckles, Shadow, Silver, etc. would be something else entirely.

I'd like to mention that doing a complete reintroduction was going to be an example for Reductio ad Absurdum.

Well it's a good thing we weren't talking about reintroducing characters then. Edited October 23, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Phos]

(You realize that in that second quote I'm saying the same thing you just said, right?)

I'm not posative you're understanding the distinction I'm trying to make here. Basically, Tails and such have spent time as good characters, whereas most of the new cast have not.

Riiight...and 25 secs of footage told you that?

No, the interview told me that. Based on what I've heard in that interview, I formed a set of good ideas for a game, and if it isn't among them, discussing what fits properly is pointless because it would be shit either way.

Edited October 23, 2009 by Phos

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

(You realize that in that second quote I'm saying the same thing you just said, right?)

I wasn't exactly focused on whether the characters would be the same characters without their development at first, as I was just putting your claim in an equal light. So no I didn't realize that.

Basically, Tails and such have spent time as good characters, whereas most of the new cast have not.

So? That doesn't change the fact that they're shitty characters, and it damn sure doesn't make Tails and them better characters than any other ones simply because they were good in the past.

A character who turns shitty will always be a shitty character until fixed. No amount of time as a good character in the past can make up for that in the present.

Just because he was a good character in the Classics that doesn't instantly make him a good character now when something messes him up, and it certainly doesn't make him better than any other character after him. You either fix the problem that's going on now or it remains a problem in the future.

If something's broken, FIX it. It's not rocket science.

Based on what I've heard in that interview, I formed a set of good ideas for a game, and if it isn't among them, discussing what fits properly is pointless because it would be shit either way.

On what grounds would it be shit if your ideas weren't among them?

Edited October 23, 2009 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Indigo Rush]

Keep it up, guys. Maybe if we reach 100 pages, SEGA will finally reveal some more info.

[Flyboy Fox]

Lol, the truth of the matter is that there IS no Project Needlemouse. SEGA just put this out there to divert our attention from all of their poorly protected/leaked info on projects we DO know about

[ArtFenix]

"Project needlemouse" has appeared again on sega FTP site^_^. Lol, do they really think it is so exciting to watch the title being removed and placed there again and again?!

Edited October 23, 2009 by ArtFenix

[Kiljoy]

What made Sonic so popular was not the game play (though it was good). It was the marketing that SEGA threw behind the series, they put the character on everything, from shirts to pins, and then put them into other forms of media.

[Marcello]

"Project needlemouse" has appeared again on sega FTP site^_^. Lol, do they really think it is so exciting to watch the title being removed and placed there again and again?!

Obviously it is. People wouldn't notice and post it if it wasn't, huh?