Megathread IDW's Sonic the Hedgehog - Megathread

[Dr. Mechano]

18 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

So basically sort of like what Paper Mario did with its sidekicks? Minus them being thinner mustached men?

No.

The Paper Mario sidekicks, as well as FLUDD, Cappy, and so on, are comparable to Shahra and Caliburn (who I mentioned in the part of my post you omitted) since they specifically aren't "Luigi-like" (or "Tails-like" in Chip's case) characters.

The entire point of my hypothetical was to imagine a scenario with a new sidekick who was superficially very similar to Luigi, not merely "any non-Luigi sidekick."

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

11 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

No.

The Paper Mario sidekicks, as well as FLUDD, Cappy, and so on, are comparable to Shahra and Caliburn (who I mentioned in the part of my post you omitted) since they specifically aren't "Luigi-like" (or "Tails-like" in Chip's case) characters.

The entire point of my hypothetical was to imagine a scenario with a new sidekick who was superficially very similar to Luigi, not merely "any non-Luigi sidekick."

I dunno about that, because it still seems surface level (I omitted that part to be silly, not to ignore your point)—Chip is just a sidekick who has a different role from Tails much like the other Mario sidekicks have a different role from Luigi.

The closest to being anything very similar to Luigi would be Waluigi.

[Dr. Mechano]

3 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I dunno about that, because it still seems surface level (I omitted that part to be silly, not to ignore your point)—Chip is just a sidekick who has a different role from Tails much like the other Mario sidekicks have a different role from Luigi.

Right, I'm just explaining why people were annoyed at the time. I even said the similarities were superficial.

[Wraith]

Tails is in the comic a lot but he's usually playing tech support so it doesn't feel like he has been. He's never actively been the focus of anything despite being around since #1. Having a story actually focused around him counts as a change of pace.

[Kuzu]

That's really the difference between Tails and Shadow as characters. 

Tails is almost always in a secondary or supporting role, even if he does show up a lot. Anything he does is generally overshadowed by what Sonic does. Which is fine, because that's the point of him being the sidekick. He's kind of designed not to standout and make Sonic look better by comparison. So yea, an arc that is actually about him as opposed to him merely playing second-fiddle is unique. 

Shadow on the other hand tends to be the focus of any story arc he shows up in, if not sharing the spotlight with Sonic. He generally steals any scene he's in, mostly because well...he's Sonic's rival, so he will generally be on Sonic's level of importance more often than not when he shows up. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

16 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

Shadow on the other hand tends to be the focus of any story arc he shows up in, if not sharing the spotlight with Sonic. He generally steals any scene he's in, mostly because well...he's Sonic's rival, so he will generally be on Sonic's level of importance more often than not when he shows up. 

Actually, that’s not really true.

During Archie, Shadow wasn’t the spotlight in Treasure Team Tango, and during Shattered after the reboot he also wasn’t the focus as opposed to Knuckles and Amy—and people have been saying that he and Team Dark would be better off removed from it because they weren’t the focus, even tho they still contributed to the story. And while helpful, he wasn’t the focus in Enerjak Reborn, and I’d hesitate to say he was any more the focus during IDW’s early start—he certainly wasn’t the focus during the Metal Virus arc in IDW.

I could go on with a list of examples where Shadow appeared but didn’t have a central role, but really, characters only receive the spotlight they’re meant to be given, they don’t really steal anything—I notice that’s usually said when the character(s) someone else dislikes gets it over the character(s) they prefer, and Shadow is far too often accused of this. While some do get it more often than others, nothing prevents any of them from taking a backseat while being present in it.

You can have Shadow in story and not have him in the spotlight.

[Kuzu]

7 minutes ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

Actually, that’s not really true.

During Archie, Shadow wasn’t the spotlight in Treasure Team Tango, and during Shattered after the reboot he also wasn’t the focus as opposed to Knuckles and Amy—and people have been saying that he and Team Dark would be better off removed from it because they weren’t the focus. And while helpful, he wasn’t the focus in Enerjak Reborn, and I’d hesitate to say he was any more the focus during IDW’s early start—he certainly wasn’t the focus during the Metal Virus arc in IDW.

I could go on with a list of examples where Shadow appeared but didn’t have a central role, but really, characters only receive the spotlight they’re meant to be given, they don’t really steal anything—I notice that’s usually said when the character(s) someone else dislikes gets it over the character(s) they prefer, and Shadow is far too often picked out over this. While some do get it more often than others, nothing prevents any of them from taking a backseat while being present in it.

You can have Shadow in story and not have him in the spotlight.

Was mainly talking about the games... 

If we're going into the comics...eh, it varies. In pre-reboot Archie, I'd agree that he was sidelined quite a bit but when the series started to veer closer to the games, it started to reverse. I agree that he was in a more supporting role in Shattered. 

But in IDW, he is generally highlighted more there. His first appearance is centered on him fighting Sonic over what to do with Eggman, and his second appearance is showing up to ambush Neo Metal Sonic along with Sonic and Knuckles. And then the issue that pissed everyone off in the Metal Virus. 

 

I'm not saying you can't have Shadow in a more supportive role, but Ian Flynn has gone on record saying that it's kind of hard to balance Shadow because of how powerful he is relative to everyone else. It's kind of the inevitable result of having a character who can functionally do everything the protagonist can do and then some.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I honestly don’t think it’s hard to balance Shadow, even as powerful as he is.

I think the real problem with “balancing” him is that, whether it the fans and the folks at Sega, they don’t want to see Shadow get bested by someone who isn’t as powerful as he is. Which is understandable—he has a hatedom that would love to see him treated as a joke than as anything worthwhile as a character, and I don’t see that as respectful to a character who isn’t meant to be intentionally hated. But that just goes without saying, you don’t have to make him a joke either.

That said, lay off that mindset and allow some ebb and flow—a character who uses Shadow own power against him, for example, or better yet let Ian write the character without that “only interested in strong opponents” mandates, and you’d have a very balanced Shadow. We’ve had one before, and it seems to be outside circumstances that’s preventing that than anything.

Really, if we can have Batman beat Superman, we can have a not-so-powerful character beat Shadow in a way that doesn’t disrespect him as a character.

[Kuzu]

I honestly don't give a fuck what his fans or Sega think. I'm going by what the author has said himself, you don't have to agree but that's what he said about him.

I like Ian's Shadow a lot, but I do get the feeling he doesn't know what to do with him sometimes and that's not even getting into the whole mandate situation.

 

Ian feels much more comfortable writing Shadow when he's in his own story arcs or interacting with characters that aren't Sonic. It was very apparent to me cuz Sonic and Shadow don't interact all that much in Archie when Ian took over I noticed. 

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

I honestly don't give a fuck what his fans or Sega think. I'm going by what the author has said himself, you don't have to agree but that's what he said about him.

I mean, that’s precisely the reason I don’t agree with the author over what he said. I trust Ian that much with his take on Shadow that were it not for those factors we wouldn’t even be having the same discussion about it.

If you ask me, Ian actually does know how to balance Shadow, he’s just not allowed to. At least, that’s just how I see it based on his writing history. You notice he only seemed to have this issue once he was given a stricter mandate on the character, whereas before he had the character down tight.

1 hour ago, Kuzu said:

I like Ian's Shadow a lot, but I do get the feeling he doesn't know what to do with him sometimes and that's not even getting into the whole mandate situation.

Ian feels much more comfortable writing Shadow when he's in his own story arcs or interacting with characters that aren't Sonic. It was very apparent to me cuz Sonic and Shadow don't interact all that much in Archie when Ian took over I noticed. 

Yeah, and I wish we could go back to having that…

Interesting how I felt Shadow was at his best when wasn’t dealing with Sonic.

[Duelistic Nature]

*notices people in a heated debate* boy id love to get examples of what's mentioned.

Suppose I'll get back to this in a week after reading all the IDW issues.

[TransPirate]

Were people particularly upset at how Evan Stanley handled Shadow? She seems to have easier time writing him under Sega's restrictions than Flynn, I'd like her to keep trying.

On topic of writers, I am hyped for Barnes's miniseries! I love Flynn's stuff as much as the next guy but I love variety that annuals and specials offer and I hoped we'd see more writers contributing to the ongoing ever since Stanley took over but a mini is great too.

[MetalSkulkBane]

33 minutes ago, TransPirate said:

Were people particularly upset at how Evan Stanley handled Shadow? She seems to have easier time writing him under Sega's restrictions than Flynn, I'd like her to keep trying.

Character wise I think she did great job. I just don't think there was enough room for him, considering... 10 other characters trough 3 plotlines.

Arc was just a little too stuffed and as much it pains me to say it, Shadow should been the one to go.

[Kuzu]

7 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I mean, that’s precisely the reason I don’t agree with the author over what he said. I trust Ian that much with his take on Shadow that were it not for those factors we wouldn’t even be having the same discussion about it.

If you ask me, Ian actually does know how to balance Shadow, he’s just not allowed to. At least, that’s just how I see it based on his writing history. You notice he only seemed to have this issue once he was given a stricter mandate on the character, whereas before he had the character down tight.

Yeah, and I wish we could go back to having that…

Interesting how I felt Shadow was at his best when wasn’t dealing with Sonic.

Yea, Ian's Shadow is 100% at his best when him and Sonic are as far away from each other as possible.

Sadly, that only worked because there was a book that allowed focus on secondary characters without the need for Sonic. So the only way for secondary characters to get focus is to either be a temporary partner for Sonic for an arc or the character getting a mini-series.

 

That said, its only a matter of time before Shadow gets a mini-series. The scrapnik series seems to be focusing on Knuckles, so it seems we're finally back to focusing on the game characters.

 

Until then, I'm more than fine with not seeing Shadow for a while, especially if uh...well we have to put up with the current version of him lol. That's something I respect Flynn for too because he doesn't feel the need to shove characters into the story just for the sake of their popularity....most of the time. 

Its notable because we haven't seen Knuckles for a while in a major role since Battle for Angel Island (No I don't count All or Nothing, he shows up at the tail end of the Metal Virus arc and doesn't contribute much.)

[Dr. Mechano]

10 hours ago, CrownSlayer’s Shadow said:

I think the real problem with “balancing” him is that, whether it the fans and the folks at Sega, they don’t want to see Shadow get bested by someone who isn’t as powerful as he is. Which is understandable—he has a hatedom that would love to see him treated as a joke than as anything worthwhile as a character, and I don’t see that as respectful to a character who isn’t meant to be intentionally hated.

I really don't think losing to someone who's less physically powerful than he is would necessarily make him a joke, or otherwise be a slight against his character.

Fights don't need to always be won and lost by pure raw power, but also by cleverness and adaptability (things Shadow is adept at too, to be fair). After all, in terms of pure raw power, the final boss of the game - whether it's a heavily-armed mech or a giant monster - is usually the strongest single thing in the game. But Sonic/the other heroes still take them down by out-speeding, out-maneuvering, and out-thinking that enemy.

So I think it's fine for characters to at least be able to lose to someone weaker than they are. I'm all for not having fights always be foregone conclusions that can always reliably be predicted just by whoever's got the highest stats in any given matchup. Shadow can (and sure, should) still get in some wins on a regular basis, but occasional losses (and not just to Sonic) are fine - actively good for a character, even, as it prevents them from being too perfect.

[MetalSkulkBane]

10 hours ago, Kuzu said:

But in IDW, he is generally highlighted more there. (..) and his second appearance is showing up to ambush Neo Metal Sonic along with Sonic and Knuckles.'

(...)

Its notable because we haven't seen Knuckles for a while in a major role since Battle for Angel Island (No I don't count All or Nothing, he shows up at the tail end of the Metal Virus arc and doesn't contribute much.)

If you don't count "All or Nothing" for Knuckles, I don't count "Battle for Angel Island" for Shadow.

In Knuckles's case, he was meant to fight Zazz. Instead, all he got was an epic desperate stand-off punching Zombot Shadow and then few funny moments in the epilogue. Not much, but nice.

In Shadow's case, he got 1 awesome page of punching Neo, then everyone started yelling he's an idiot for doing so. Afterward he does zilch. Not even a cute epilogue in #12 like everyone else had.

[Kuzu]

7 minutes ago, MetalSkulkBane said:

If you don't count "All or Nothing" for Knuckles, I don't count "Battle for Angel Island" for Shadow.

In Knuckles's case, he was meant to fight Zazz. Instead, all he got was an epic desperate stand-off punching Zombot Shadow and then few funny moments in the epilogue. Not much, but nice.

In Shadow's case, he got 1 awesome page of punching Neo, then everyone started yelling he's an idiot for doing so. Afterward he does zilch. Not even a cute epilogue in #12 like everyone else had.

 

I feel like there's a big difference in taking on the main threat and stealing attention away from the other two people fighting him and just kind of being a footnote overall.

I get what you're saying and why you'd see it that way but it kind of still highlights my point about how Shadow is generally stealing any scene he's in.

 

22 minutes ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I really don't think losing to someone who's less physically powerful than he is would necessarily make him a joke, or otherwise be a slight against his character.

Fights don't need to always be won and lost by pure raw power, but also by cleverness and adaptability (things Shadow is adept at too, to be fair). After all, in terms of pure raw power, the final boss of the game - whether it's a heavily-armed mech or a giant monster - is usually the strongest single thing in the game. But Sonic/the other heroes still take them down by out-speeding, out-maneuvering, and out-thinking that enemy.

So I think it's fine for characters to at least be able to lose to someone weaker than they are. I'm all for not having fights always be foregone conclusions that can always reliably be predicted just by whoever's got the highest stats in any given matchup. Shadow can (and sure, should) still get in some wins on a regular basis, but occasional losses (and not just to Sonic) are fine - actively good for a character, even, as it prevents them from being too perfect.

Its all a matter of how its written honestly. Shadow being outsmarted or overpowered is fine, welcome even.

But usually he has to be written as well....dumb, in order for the former to work out. Which leads to things like the Metal Virus arc. 

 

I feel like people pushback against it is because its exaggerating traits Shadow has in order to give him flaws. Which I'm mostly fine with but that's something that fans of the character aren't going to be happy about.

 

Its the same complaints like Knuckles being dumb, and Tails being a coward come from. 

[MGA_Gamer]

2 hours ago, Kuzu said:

The scrapnik series seems to be focusing on Knuckles, so it seems we're finally back to focusing on the game characters.

 

I thought that mini-series was focusing on Sonic and Tails, not Knuckles.

[Razule]

13 minutes ago, MGA_Gamer said:

I thought that mini-series was focusing on Sonic and Tails, not Knuckles.

It said Knuckles at first, but that was a mistake.

[Kuzu]

6 minutes ago, Razule said:

It said Knuckles at first, but that was a mistake.

Oh really? Nvm lol.

 

Get fucked Knuckles.

[WanderingBleats]

Quote

I really don't think losing to someone who's less physically powerful than he is would necessarily make him a joke, or otherwise be a slight against his character.

Fights don't need to always be won and lost by pure raw power, but also by cleverness and adaptability (things Shadow is adept at too, to be fair).

 

Flashback to the time in Sonic X when Tails should have beaten Shadow using his cleverness, familiarity with the ship's layout, and understanding of Shadow's behavior...

...and then Shadow just warps back in like "lol that didn't count"

[Kuzu]

5 minutes ago, WanderingBleats said:

Flashback to the time in Sonic X when Tails should have beaten Shadow using his cleverness, familiarity with the ship's layout, and understanding of Shadow's behavior...

...and then Shadow just warps back in like "lol that didn't count"

Rule of thumb for Anime: if any of the secondary characters go up against the rival and they aren't the protagonist, they're going to get their ass kicked probably.

 

But man, that was so funny. Tails put out every measure he could and Shadow noped through each and every one of them.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

1 hour ago, Dr. Mechano said:

I really don't think losing to someone who's less physically powerful than he is would necessarily make him a joke, or otherwise be a slight against his character.

I don’t either. But I know how fans think when their favorite characters with X power level has the possibility of losing to someone weaker.

Mind you, I’m a Shadow fan myself who doesn’t want to see him lording over other characters like he’s the Broly of the series. So I’m a bit of an exception to that perception among those types. I’d actually love to see Shadow lose a battle against Tails because rather than strength and power, the latter used tactics and strategy to beat the former.

[Kuzu]

God, could you imagine the backlash if that happened...

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

27 minutes ago, Kuzu said:

God, could you imagine the backlash if that happened...

They can suck it up and deal with it, lest they become a meme for how whiny they are.

It’s just one lost fight, not the end of the world.