Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Kellan]

1 minute ago, Tracker_TD said:

SA1 is infact an Adventure game

So you'd still be wrong

-- Sorted, lads --

Even if you'd just said "SA2", your point would still miss because I wasn't saying it was a bad thing; I said it'd only be a bad thing if they went the SA2 route, because SA2's tone is:

 

Ok, I went back a reread the original tweet, and realized that it's only referring to Sonic Adventure. You were right.

[Multikaris]

6 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

No, Sonic can't, because it's not built for it.

I didn't say it was exclusively painfully serious. And tone doesn't work on a point system where you can balance out anything if you just pile on some stuff from the other end of the spectrum.

1) How, exactly, is Sonic an exception? How can serious stuff end up not working at all?

 

2) I know. It should all be woven together.

[Diogenes]

Just now, It's a Very Merry Miru said:

1) How, exactly, is Sonic an exception? How can serious stuff end up not working at all?

It's not that Sonic is "an exception". Many, many things are not designed to be serious. Sonic is one of them.

Be cool, be wild, and be groovy, but don't try to be serious if you're not cut out for it.

[Chris Knopps]

I think Sonic can technically be "built" for any kind of tone/plot so long as the competence to do so correctly and make it worthwhile are there.

Despite the issues found in ALL of the 3D series and their plots, it doesn't matter which game you look at as there was always SOMETHING worthwhile gained from some certain cut scene, or cut scenes, in each title.

Every game has had high and low points, but solid ideas/concepts have been in every Sonic game be them serious or comedy centric. I personally found more to love than hate about the plots of Sonic titles between SA1 and Unleashed, save for Sonic 06 and most of Shadow.

It all depends on which portions of each titles plot you're focusing on. What your preferences are and such. But there hasn't been a Sonic game to exist with an outright bad/terrible plot altogether. They've all been good/solid in their own ways and they've all failed in their own ways.

When you think about it, at its core Sonic CD was likely darker than Sonic Adventure 2 was at any point when you consider just how bad off Little Planet could become without you to save it. You literally watched, at the time, Robotnik completely pollute an entire world with ZERO signs of living creatures in the future, if I remember correctly.

So...

It really doesn't matter how light or dark Sonic gets, what's important is execution. Do it right, the tone will be right, no matter which direction it takes nor' how far it goes. I still say CD is the perfect proof of this, and that's a PRE-3D title!

[DonWaffleleven]

1 hour ago, MudHunter said:

 

Yeah I'll believe it when I see it.

[Shiny Gems]

I thought the tone for Sonic Adventure 2 was good. To me, it was the appropriate level of seriousness for a Sonic game (that is, if a Sonic game ever were to be serious). I probably would not be alright if it was like Shadow's game or Sonic 06. But I thought Sonic Adventure 2 was cool for its tone and story. It was my first 3D Sonic game, and the tone of it, and the story as well, gave a cool feel to it, along with the music. That is just me, though.

[Diogenes]

2 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

I think Sonic can technically be "built" for any kind of tone/plot so long as the competence to do so correctly and make it worthwhile are there.

Nope! Sonic is not suited for a gory horror type plot. Or a raunchy comedy. Or a heist story, probably. Or many, many, many other things.

2 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

When you think about it, at its core Sonic CD was likely darker than Sonic Adventure 2 was at any point when you consider just how bad off Little Planet could become without you to save it.

Maybe the reason CD works is because you're not actually supposed to think about it. You're not supposed to seriously consider the implications of untold years of pollution and a forever expanding robot army beyond "yeah that's bad, better go stop it and save the world like always!"

[Shiny Gems]

1 minute ago, Diogenes said:

Nope! Sonic is not suited for a gory horror type plot. Or a raunchy comedy. Or a heist story, probably. Or many, many, many other things.

Maybe the reason CD works is because you're not actually supposed to think about it. You're not supposed to seriously consider the implications of untold years of pollution and a forever expanding robot army beyond "yeah that's bad, better go stop it and save the world like always!"

To state my opinion on this, there are some things Sonic could never do in terms of plot, some thing you just listed. However, that doesn't mean that if Sonic tries to be something else, it has to be bad. Sonic was not known for being serious when Sonic Adventure 2 came out, but some like myself found it to be good. Sonic may not be everything, but that doesn't mean it has to be one thing only, or can't be good at things other than what it was originally meant to be if it tries to do so. Just saying.

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, CrystalStorm51 said:

.Sonic was not known for being serious when Sonic Adventure 2 came out, but some like myself found it to be good.

And quite a few people did not.

4 minutes ago, CrystalStorm51 said:

Sonic may not be everything, but that doesn't mean it has to be one thing only

Bear in mind, that cuts both ways. Plenty of people make it out like Sonic is supposed to only be like the Adventure games.

[Nepenthe]

"Not considering the implications" of the things that go on in Sonic's world is arguably the problem of a lot of the writing distilled down into a single sentence, especially since these same aesthetics come across differently in a 3D environment where there's a higher threshold of empathy that is automatically attained when comparing the same situations at face value.

[Chris Knopps]

7 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Nope! Sonic is not suited for a gory horror type plot. Or a raunchy comedy. Or a heist story, probably. Or many, many, many other things.

Maybe the reason CD works is because you're not actually supposed to think about it. You're not supposed to seriously consider the implications of untold years of pollution and a forever expanding robot army beyond "yeah that's bad, better go stop it and save the world like always!"

But... Doesn't... The game kind of...

I mean, it's pretty strongly...

...I'm bewildered by your logic here. The game really does push how your failure results in total/absolute corruption of the entire planet.

And by the end of the game, yeah, things look really jacked up in a pretty hopeless kind of way, that there is this whole...

"No matter what you do, win or lose, the planet is lost forever" kind of vibe going on. Robotnik already destroyed everything, there's nothing left.

So at the end of the day I still think Sonic CD is the darkest game in the franchise, if you omit Shadow especially, with Forces potentially on par with CD what with the Modern and Classic stages shown so far, offering the same light/dark balance CD had with its designs.

[Tracker_TD]

I mean

c'mon lads

[Shiny Gems]

Just now, Diogenes said:

And quite a few people did not.

Bear in mind, that cuts both ways. Plenty of people make it out like Sonic is supposed to only be like the Adventure games.

It doesn't have to be only like that, ya know. With some competence and good judgement, Sonic can work as anything. Not everything, but it can work as things other than what it was originally intended to be. Maybe it works best as it was originally intended, but sometimes, you don't have to stick with one kind of tone, if you know what I mean. If you are good at doing something else, and it works out fine, then it should be all good. Of course, if you're not so good at something else, there is the "don't do it", thing, but Sonic, I believe, can work in more ways than one.

[Diogenes]

5 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

But... Doesn't... The game kind of...

I mean, it's pretty strongly...

...I'm bewildered by your logic here. The game really does push how your failure results in total/absolute corruption of the entire planet.

That's what you read into it, by thinking about it too much. The game itself just gives you a "bad end" and asks you to try again.

It doesn't have to be only like that, ya know. With some competence and good judgement, Sonic can work as anything. Not everything, but it can work as things other than what it was originally intended to be.

Anything, but not everything, seems a bit of a nonsense sentiment.

 If you are good at doing something else, and it works out fine, then it should be all good. Of course, if you're not so good at something else, there is the "don't do it", thing, but Sonic, I believe, can work in more ways than one.

Well that's the thing, Sonic isn't good at those things. They've gathered a few fans, sure, but it doesn't play to the series' strengths and it doesn't have wide appeal.

[Shiny Gems]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

That's what you read into it, by thinking about it too much. The game itself just gives you a "bad end" and asks you to try again.

Anything, but not everything, seems a bit of a nonsense sentiment.

Well that's the thing, Sonic isn't good at those things. They've gathered a few fans, sure, but it doesn't play to the series' strengths and it doesn't have wide appeal.

Well, first off, I meant most things, in a potential sense. Sorry if I came across as nonsensical.

Also, that last part seems to be more based on what you think. Like I said, maybe Sonic is best at being what it originally was supposed to be, but having a dark tone or a serious one, and trying to be something else isn't always a bad thing to do or have. Not everyone has to approve, but it CAN be done.

[Celestia]

To be honest I don't think the issue with the last few games has been tone or "seriousness," it's been sincerity. Jokes and lightheartedness aren't a problem in themselves, but the current writing honestly does strictly feel like it's just there to fill time between Acts and not much else (and of course this isn't even getting into all the other issues with the writing). SA1's tone is good and if they're genuinely going in that direction, that's great, but more than that I want that era's sense of actually trying to tell a story.

Also new writer(s), that'd be nice.

44 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

It's like, you can threaten the world with destruction, but don't try to make me believe there's any chance of that actually happening. It's Sonic, we already know he's going to beat up Eggman and save the world, what I want is to see how. The characters can care, sure, but don't weigh them down with it; it's a reason for them to get moving, not something for them to dwell on.

I'm genuinely curious, when have the characters ever dwelled too much on something? One of the reasons I'm fine with SA2's tone is that everyone in the main cast seems way more focused on their personal grudges with their rivals than the world being at stake. I can understand people's problems with that game when factoring in the Final Story, tho'.

7 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

I mean

c'mon lads

Surely there's a middle ground here.

I wouldn't say CD is super dark or anything but I don't see anything wrong with engaging enough with it to take the Bad Futures at least a little bit seriously. Otherwise there's not really much point to 'em.

[Nepenthe]

Just now, Celestia said:

To be honest I don't think the issue with the last few games has been tone or "seriousness," it's been sincerity. Jokes and lightheartedness aren't a problem in themselves, but the current writing honestly does strictly feel like it's just there to fill time between Acts and not much else (and of course this isn't even getting into all the other issues with the writing). SA1's tone is good and if they're genuinely going in that direction, that's great, but more than that I want that era's sense of actually trying to tell a story.

Also new writer(s), that'd be nice.

I'm genuinely curious, when have the characters ever dwelled too much on something? One of the reasons I'm fine with SA2's tone is that everyone in the main cast seems way more focused on their personal grudges with their rivals than the world being at stake. I can understand people's problems with that game when factoring in the Final Story, tho'.

Surely there's a middle ground here.

I wouldn't say CD is super dark or anything but I don't see anything wrong with engaging enough with it to take the Bad Futures at least a little bit seriously. Otherwise there's not really much point to 'em.

All of fucking this, especially the bolded.

[Tracker_TD]

3 minutes ago, Celestia said:

I wouldn't say CD is super dark or anything but I don't see anything wrong with engaging enough with it to take the Bad Futures at least a little bit seriously. Otherwise there's not really much point to 'em.

Oh aye, definitely. 

I was mostly just taking the piss out of the grimdark line of thinking because fuckin' lol, innit.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

How about something both serious and fun? I will admit, I also like the darker tones as well but what I don't like is how sometimes they are over the top about it. Like Shadow's game I wouldn't mind the seriousness if it didn't come out like a parody. 

[Nepenthe]

Also, there's a palpable irony in discussing misinterpreting a video game and then deliberately misinterpreting people's arguments for snark. Let's tone it down.

[Meta77]

34 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Nope! Sonic is not suited for a gory horror type plot. Or a raunchy comedy. Or a heist story, probably. Or many, many, many other things.

Maybe the reason CD works is because you're not actually supposed to think about it. You're not supposed to seriously consider the implications of untold years of pollution and a forever expanding robot army beyond "yeah that's bad, better go stop it and save the world like always!"

Wait after much though who exactly sets these magical rules sonic can not be any of those things is Sega so wished it. It is their property after all. Sometimes I think fans think they hold to tight a grip on what THEY think sonic should be. Not saying id ever want to see a gore like sonic game. Just the thought process

And again to the above point who says you are not actually supposed to think about it?

[JosepHenry]

Just to make it clear in terms of "levels of darkness" in the Adventure games

Water god kills a whole tribe of echidnas is at least in the realm of fantasy enough to feel like it happend in a Sonic game.

Goverment military guns down almost everyone in a space colony, including a little girl, and executes her crazy for revenge grandfather by firing squad...

That's something Metal Gear Solid could do. Not Sonic The Hedgehog. A series made for all ages.

[Bowbowis]

40 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Nope! Sonic is not suited for a gory horror type plot. Or a raunchy comedy. Or a heist story, probably. Or many, many, many other things.

Maybe the reason CD works is because you're not actually supposed to think about it. You're not supposed to seriously consider the implications of untold years of pollution and a forever expanding robot army beyond "yeah that's bad, better go stop it and save the world like always!"

Spoiler

 

 

Yeah... No. When the game flat out shows the results of Eggman's victory on-screen, and has an entire mechanic designed to call attention it, it's pretty obvious that the creators do want you to give at least some consideration to the implications.

At any rate, would you to care to explain why Sonic games can't work with darker story elements? You've repeatedly said that they're incompatible but I've yet to see you make an actual argument backing that up. What makes Sonic less capable of handling dark elements than the likes of, say, Pokémon, Mega Man, Transformers, or the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles?

[Meta77]

1 minute ago, JosepMelloZSM said:

Just to make it clear in terms of "levels of darkness" in the Adventure games

Water god kills a whole tribe of echidnas is at least in the realm of fantasy enough to feel like it happend in a Sonic game.

Goverment military guns down almost everyone in a space colony, including a little girl, and executes her crazy for revenge grandfather by firing squad. And the military made a video of that. That's something Metal Gear Solid could do. Not Sonic The Hedgehog. A series made for all ages.

And yet they did it anyway. What are you getting at with that?

[Tracker_TD]

1 minute ago, Meta77 said:

And yet they did it anyway. What are you getting at with that?

They did do it anyway!

And it sucked! So the point is, don't do the thing that sucked, innit.