Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, Kellan said:

I'm don't know what you're referring to here.

Lost World.

[Shiny Gems]

1 minute ago, Meta77 said:

Another kid friendly idea of thinking. Ok megaman. The original US cartoon. Built for kids of all ages game wise yet the opening shows buildings burning, bombs being tossed every which way. Granted by todays standards we could not get away with some that "wild"

Same goes for sonic. it can be built for all ages yet have some serious moment throughout the series. or are you saying we need a rated K through E game because those sewious moments ruin the game vibe cause sonics showing serious moments

 

Agreed. A few serious moments won't hurt anything, and Sonic is no exception. Plus, I agree with Nepenthe. There were serious moments and dark elements before, like in the OVA, so why complain now? Sonic SatAM was kinda dark, too, and there were plenty of fans of that show, if I recall correctly.

[Nepenthe]

13 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

They did but everyone hated it.

e: like, this is the thing, one of the big problems people had with it was how they tried to inject more complexity into the main characters, and everyone cried "out of character!" They tried to do something more with the main characters, but the characters are just too simple for it!

Maybe people want deeper character writing that's also good on top of it.

[Tracker_TD]

1 minute ago, Nepenthe said:

We had people complain about cities being destroyed in Forces, when CD basically levels the entire planet in the future. And the badass OVA takes place extensively in a fucked up city. Where were the fucking complaints then?

When the Classic games level cities and have giant smog doused factories like Scrap Brain, it's because the game's set up Eggman as a villain and conveys it through the not-so-subtle "nature is good" sentiment. Not subtle; but it's more elegant and meaningful than "here's a city blown to hellfuck, take Eggman seriously now". SA1 did the whole "city blown to hellfuck" thing too, but even that wasn't a ham-fisted attempt at "take Eggman seriously pls," it was "Eggman let a God rampage because he's a muppet". It could absolutely turn out Forces pulls something like that too, but I'm going off what we know.   

That's my hilariously condensed thinking on it anyway. I'm sure I'll probably disagree with half of my own logic tomorrow when it's not 1am anywho.

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

Maybe people want deeper character writing that's also good on top of it.

Considering the reactions to Lost World's characterizations I am very skeptical of that.

[blazefan519]

Just now, Diogenes said:

Considering the reactions to Lost World's characterizations I am very skeptical of that.

Lost Wold's characterizations were awful, lol what are you even on about?

[Diogenes]

3 minutes ago, blazefan519 said:

Lost Wold's characterizations were awful, lol what are you even on about?

I liked them. More than I liked most of this series' characterizations for the main characters.

Can't have that though! Gotta throw out Pontac and Graff now before they poison the series even more with this "giving characters flaws" and "allowing characters to not always be right" nonsense.

e: not that I expect anyone to change their minds on this. No one ever has.

[Multikaris]

21 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

I bet you next up on the chopping block is explosions. Bots cannot explode anymore upon impact with a Homing Attack. It's too dangerous.

Funny, as Lost World did have enemies, organic or mechanical, disappear in a little gray puff of smoke instead of exploding or leaving a corpse. 

[blazefan519]

Just now, Diogenes said:

I liked them. More than I liked most of this series' characterizations for the main characters.

Can't have that though! Gotta throw out Pontac and Graff now before they poison the series even more with this "giving characters flaws" and "allowing characters to not always be right" nonsense.

Oh my... Well that's you then, but majority of people don't like Lost World's characterization, at all. The only thing I liked was Eggman, but the rest was ehhhhhhhh....

[Nepenthe]

10 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

When the Classic games level cities and have giant smog doused factories like Scrap Brain, it's because the game's set up Eggman as a villain and conveys it through the not-so-subtle "nature is good" sentiment. Not subtle; but it's more elegant and meaningful than "here's a city blown to hellfuck, take Eggman seriously now". SA1 did the whole "city blown to hellfuck" thing too, but even that wasn't a ham-fisted attempt at "take Eggman seriously pls," it was "Eggman let a God rampage because he's a muppet". It could absolutely turn out Forces pulls something like that too, but I'm going off what we know.   

That's my hilariously condensed thinking on it anyway. I'm sure I'll probably disagree with half of my own logic tomorrow when it's not 1am anywho.

And now we're getting into the point of contention here.

People are complaining about cities being destroyed in Forces on principle (they have to, because no one has seen the game's story yet).

While I agree with your distinctions, none of that actually matters to people who think Sonic literally shouldn't be doing these kinds of things at all because the franchise is somehow predicated on concepts that run contradictory to any hint of action-adventure/sci-fi/superhero conflict...even though it is fundamentally an action-adventure/sci-fi/superhero franchise due to its base elements. And these are the people who Sega have been listening to, at least from where I'm sitting.

It doesn't feel like the franchise has been leaving just about everything from the Adventure games behind because the natural progression towards more modern and polished games has unintentionally dictated that. It feels like they're being left behind out of some weird, soccer-mom-ish overreaction to anything and everything that appeared in worse games under the guise that they themselves were the reason those games were bad. 

Basically, the logic goes: Sonic 06 had a city on fire. Sonic 06 was bad. Therefore, cities on fire is bad.

It's utter nonsense to me and it's making the games fucking boring, because it's stripping them of a lot of iconography and ideas that made them at least superficially interesting, if not that much more inherently unique over the competition where platformers were and still largely considered affairs of happier and ultimately more meaningless platitudes. Seriously, if I wanted a platformer with basically fuck-all narrative tension, well, I'd play Mario! At least then I could be guaranteed good platforming mechanics to make up for the stark narrative.

4 minutes ago, It's a Very Merry Miru said:

Funny, as Lost World did have enemies, organic or mechanical, disappear in a little gray puff of smoke instead of exploding or leaving a corpse. 

huehuehue

[Kellan]

3 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I liked them. More than I liked most of this series' characterizations for the main characters.

Can't have that though! Gotta throw out Pontac and Graff now before they poison the series even more with this "giving characters flaws" and "allowing characters to not always be right" nonsense.

e: not that I expect anyone to change their minds on this. No one ever has.

This is the first time I've ever seen you say that you liked a Sonic story with dialogue, so I'm curious. What did you like about it?

[Wraith]

I mean, seems like Aaron or somebody sent some feedback to Iizuka because they're leaning into some more Adventure style shit now and the franchise didn't catch on fire over it.

Ironically there's more heat over Classic Sonic and HIS shit now. It's like I'm in the twilight zone.

[JosepHenry]

Eh, post Archie comics is way better than Lost World's characterization....

I not that the character aren't allowed to be wrong, I love when character do things wrong, but I hate the writing of that game!

The D6 are the epidemy of one dimensional and the jokes "BITES"! (IN MY OPINION)

 

 

Also, if I'm in the list of Nepenthe about people complaning about destroyed cities that's a lie cuz I love Forces tone. (My problem is with guns)

[Chris Knopps]

.....

It would be nice when the day comes folks universally agree Sonic is meant to be lighthearted and serious as well as simple and complex and it doesn't matter which it's more of or what tone it has so long as the writers are professional and the execution is spot on...

.....

But that's just my dream...

[Nepenthe]

Just now, Josh said:

Ironically there's more heat over Classic Sonic and HIS shit now. It's like I'm in the twilight zone.

Because he's that friend who keeps showing up every day uninvited. At some point, you wear out your welcome doing that shit.

Don't you have, like, a fucking job or life outside of hanging out with me, Classic Sonic? Like, aren't you supposed to be starring in Mania?

Yeah, stay in your lane.

[blazefan519]

Just now, Chris Knopps said:

.....

It would be nice when the day comes folks universally agree Sonic is meant to be lighthearted and serious as well as simple and complex and it doesn't matter which it's more of or what tone it has so long as the writers are professional and the execution is spot on...

.....

But that's just my dream...

Hoo boy, that'll be a day to remember. But we won't ever remember it because it'll happen. RIP

[Radiant Hero Ike]

Hm... I think, since I grew up with the Adventure games (SA1 was the third game I'd ever played), I never thought of them as very dark.

But like, once people start pointing out some stuff it does end up sounding pretty silly. Specifically the Maria dying bit.

While I personally don't mind EDGE or darker tones, I think something along the lines of Unleashed would be best. Though it was a little lacking in funny moments honestly (I think? It's been years since I've actually played through the story). I mean, yeah, the entire world got split in pieces, but it wasn't all doom and gloom the whole time. There wasn't a news broadcast saying something like "Planet Split; Millions Die" or whatever. I liked it.

I dunno if what I'm saying makes sense or not and really I haven't taken a Sonic story that seriously since I was like, 5 years old (Shadow's death had me in tears, RIP), so whatever they do I'll probably be okay with.

[JosepHenry]

Serious moments need to exist as well as high stakes. That's what keeps you interested on the story!

[blazefan519]

3 minutes ago, Josh said:

I mean, seems like Aaron or somebody sent some feedback to Iizuka because they're leaning into some more Adventure style shit now and the franchise didn't catch on fire over it.

Ironically there's more heat over Classic Sonic and HIS shit now. It's like I'm in the twilight zone.

Gotta agree with that one, yeah. Classic Sonic has really only been my one problem with this game. Boost doesn't offend to the same level it does for some of you guys and as long as the writing is spot on, I wouldn't have much beef with the game. Hopefully that "new element" will make me more interested in his gameplay this time. But know I'm being too hopeful, need to turn back into a pessimist real quick.

[Diogenes]

1 minute ago, Kellan said:

This is the first time I've ever seen you say that you liked a Sonic story with dialogue, so I'm curious. What did you like about it?

Well we got a story that was actually about Sonic and Tails for the first time in basically forever, that's a big plus.

The heroes were allowed to be wrong and make mistakes, and the game explored the consequences. Sonic messed up due to being too cocky and impatient, Tails felt betrayed and got jealous and snippy, and shit got worse until the circumstances shook them out of it. We learned things about the characters.

Plus a fair amount of the gags did land even if not all of them did, while the D6 weren't great they were decent enough instigators for the real focus of the story, and Eggman was solid as usual and actually got one up on everyone until the very end.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

22 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

I liked them. More than I liked most of this series' characterizations for the main characters.

Can't have that though! Gotta throw out Pontac and Graff now before they poison the series even more with this "giving characters flaws" and "allowing characters to not always be right" nonsense.

e: not that I expect anyone to change their minds on this. No one ever has.

Same. I like how the characters messed up and were actually kinda punished for it. But they made it better by owning their mistakes and making things better. Aso tension between the two friends prove that their friendship isn't always sunshine and roses.

I guess the best part is when they used the characters in the story instead of making them side characters in some newcomers story.

[JezMM]

For me I just hated how Lost World's cut-scenes just sorta came out of nowhere.  The biggest offender was Tails getting pissed off at Sonic about teaming up with Eggman, when for 3 or 4 cut-scenes prior he was absolutely fine with it and they were both joking together about how it sucked but was necessary.  Then suddenly Tails turns into asshole of the year and verbally kicks Sonic in the dick about it for no reason.

...And then the conflict is resolved by Eggman saying it's annoying and them telling him to shut up and the entire thing never comes up again.

 

Lost World's story definitely had moments I enjoyed too, but stuff like the above and the Deadly Six in general left an overall sour taste in my mouth.  Also a lot of missed opportunities - I've harped on about this before but Sonic's little lonely moment in Lava Mountain would have been SO much more effective if it happened at the start of the calm, melancholic undersea Act 2 rather than the end - where it is immediately followed by chipper happy map music and Sonic's swift reuniting with Tails at the start of Act 3.

[Kintor]

4 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

Well we got a story that was actually about Sonic and Tails for the first time in basically forever, that's a big plus.

The heroes were allowed to be wrong and make mistakes, and the game explored the consequences. Sonic messed up due to being too cocky and impatient, Tails felt betrayed and got jealous and snippy, and shit got worse until the circumstances shook them out of it. We learned things about the characters.

Plus a fair amount of the gags did land even if not all of them did, while the D6 weren't great they were decent enough instigators for the real focus of the story, and Eggman was solid as usual and actually got one up on everyone until the very end.

Lost World will never be regarded as a good story because it got the characterisations all wrong. When the IQ of every character mysteriously drops by 150 points before the start of the game it's impossible to have any real consequence or learn anything from the experience. At this point Sonic doesn't need a story about being too cocky or impatient, that ground has been covered elsewhere and by better people throughout the long history of the Sonic franchise. If anything it just reveals how Pontac and Graff never bothered to do their research and instead just created a watered-down imitation of a Sonic story based on the most basic of information.

At least with Sonic Adventure 2 the franchise was given an ambitious story that really took advantage of the Dreamcast's technical capabilities. Allowing Sonic Team to provide a level of storytelling that wasn't possible on earlier consoles. Besides that you've got a threat with real consequences and a lot of darker elements but it still remains a fun adventure story above all. It's easy to see why the Adventure era remains a good benchmark of storytelling in Sonic games and I'd be extremely happy if Sonic Team returns to this tone with Sonic Forces.

[Kellan]

6 minutes ago, Kintor said:

At this point Sonic doesn't need a story about being too cocky or impatient, that ground has been covered elsewhere and by better people throughout the long history of the Sonic franchise.

I don't know, I feel like there's still some potential here. Get a competent writer, and this could be some much-needed growth for the character. Though, I might just feel that way because I can't remember what story you're referring to when you say that the ground has been covered.

Edit: As long as we're sharing, one of my problems with Lost World is that Tails looks like he's going to have some character development, and then just doesn't. He's all like, "I'm the greatest, and you don't need to have Eggman turn off the machine he built, because I'll automatically know how to do so because I'm so smart. The fact that you are even bringing Eggman along on the off-chance that I can't do it is a huge betrayal to me for some reason." And then at the end of the game, he's all like, "I'm the greatest. I took out Eggman's machine all by myself, and even reversed it. Eggman couldn't even reverse his own machine, because he is not me and therefore not the greatest".

[Wraith]

Lost World's story isn't very good at all to to me but it's not far enough from the Dreamcast Era stuff quality wise for it to stick out as much worse than those. I guess the Dreamcast stuff was flashier and cared more about context and lore and stuff, but the cheesy dialogue and monsters of the week were still there. I don't see enough of a difference to understand the division over it unless you REALLY don't like the bright and cheery aesthetic over the more grounded one. 

I'm...kinda tired of the tone arguments as a whole because of this. It always comes from someone slamming a game and pretending like it was the worst thing ever and someone else defending it and pretending nothing is wrong with it. There's usually more to it than that and I find there are more similarities than differences when you look at what the actual problems of the stories are. Namely that the writing..just sucks, from top to bottom. There's no tone that's gonna fix that. Sonic Forces is claiming to go back to an "Adventure Era" tone but that just kind of makes me roll my eyes. My prediction:it'll be half-hearted and messily executed enough to put people who don't like Dark!Sonic off of it but have enough interesting ideas for those who do to double down.