Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Blacklightning]

1 hour ago, Blue Blood said:

As we don't yet know the story, I'm pretty indifferent to a Super Sonic final boss. But whatever the final boss is, I'd like it to play like the rest of the game.

I feel like there's a less solid line about it personally. Granted, I would like to see an endgame that's mechanically identical to everything preceding it, but I think there's enough precedent that you can still get away with a few differences as long as they're self explanatory. Doomsday Zone for the most part works because it speaks for itself - you can fly in any cardinal direction, and you run into things to break them. What challenge there is in adapting to that from being otherwise a platformer isn't so much a difficulty spike any more than figuring out how a curveball boss like Gapsule or Guardian works. Meanwhile on the other end of the spectrum you have Unleashed (talking HD here - haven't played the Wii version), which not only bring in so much new bullshit that it literally can't be considered a similar playstyle to anything else prior, in many ways they expect you to play it to near-perfection within minutes of it being introduced, which is a spike so ridiculous it's a wonder that QA didn't catch it.

I dunno, I lost my train of thought somewhere in the middle of writing this but basically what I'm trying to say is that I think there are reasonable mechanical concessions to being this overpowered right at the 11th hour. Some examples are more subtle than others (eg: SA1 with hovering and long, drawn-out acceleration), but as long as I don't have to waste several lives before I'm expected to figure out how anything works I'm cool with it.

4 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

How would you feel about a plot where Sonic doesn't have the Emeralds at his disposal at the climax, but Eggman does?

Make it happen.

[Meta77]

5 minutes ago, Blue Blood said:

So there's no threat unless he needs the 7 Chaos McGuffins? I don't buy that whatsoever. The Emeralds and Super Sonic don't need to be a part of every story. Where's the threat if all takes is for  Sonic to becoming a dashing blonde every time there's danger?

Sonic is more than capable of taking down Eggman. The Emeralds are just one of the ways that he can accomplish it. How would you feel about a plot where Sonic doesn't have the Emeralds at his disposal at the climax, but Eggman does? Would Sonic have to lose that fight?

I maintain that there are other ways to do climactic and threatening. Super Sonic is just one of them. 

Seeing as the emeralds are a ultimate form of a power up yes sonic should lose. Tell me how would he have handled final hazard.  Metal overlords. Perfect dark gaia in the earth core with no platforms over .molten magma. Or the biggest threat Solaris.  when in that last one not even super sonic actually beat him.  sonic strong but let's not pretend 5he could have say given chase to eggman in unleashed opening or fought time eater. Its on to not like ss I guess but his power is needed many times

3 minutes ago, Blacklightning said:

I feel like there's a less solid line about it personally. Granted, I would like to see an endgame that's mechanically identical to everything preceding it, but I think there's enough precedent that you can still get away with a few differences as long as they're self explanatory. Doomsday Zone for the most part works because it speaks for itself - you can fly in any cardinal direction, and you run into things to break them. What challenge there is in adapting to that from being otherwise a platformer isn't so much a difficulty spike any more than figuring out how a curveball boss like Gapsule or Guardian works. Meanwhile on the other end of the spectrum you have Unleashed (talking HD here - haven't played the Wii version), which not only bring in so much new bullshit that it literally can't be considered a similar playstyle to anything else prior, in many ways they expect you to play it to near-perfection within minutes of it being introduced, which is a spike so ridiculous it's a wonder that QA didn't catch it.

I dunno, I lost my train of thought somewhere in the middle of writing this but basically what I'm trying to say is that I think there are reasonable mechanical concessions to being this overpowered right at the 11th hour. Some examples are more subtle than others (eg: SA1 with hovering and long, drawn-out acceleration), but as long as I don't have to waste several lives before I'm expected to figure out how anything works I'm cool with it.

Make it happen.

It wasn't like you had to learn a million things. Dodge rocks fly forward.  block beam. Fly forward. Dodge rocks.  Fly forward. Quick time. Sonic. Fly forward get rings. Fly forward. Get rings. Fly around shield  . Ram snake heads. Quick time event. Then last button mash.

Dang Sega went full dark souls/ nioh difficulty on us there lol

[Auroxen]

8 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Seeing as the emeralds are a ultimate form of a power up yes sonic should lose.

Then how did he defeat Perfect Chaos in Sonic Generations?

[JezMM]

If you want a boss to feel big and threatening just make it a series of smaller bosses where you slowly weaken it's defenses before going in for the kill.

Which frankly is a perfect setup if we're dealing with testing three different gameplay styles, and honestly, I feel "level" type bosses are always the perfect way to cap off a game ever since Mario 3D Land and World did so well with them.  There's no better climax for a platformer than a dramatic test of platforming.

 

 

EDIT: Spectacle can also go a long way to making a boss feel threatening.  The final attack of Big Swell in Sonic Rush Adventure made me genuinely sweat - the music and the enclosing lasers feel SO threatening due to their visual design with no way out in sight - then at the last second the boss collapses and it's weak point comes in reach again.  As long as you follow your intuition, most players won't die... but they sure as hell will feel like they're about to the first time they play, which honestly is enough for me for a final boss.

Having one hit kills that are fairly easy to overcome goes a long way to making a boss threatening, or attacks that are hard to avoid but don't kill you outright - but DO put you in a temporary state of serious jeapordy.  I always think of the Poison Headcrabs from Half-Life 2.  Director commentary mentions how they're great for jumpscares, because they drain your health to 1 without ever killing you.  You rarely face them with other enemies around, but the first time you play the game you won't know that and it makes every single time one gets you a panic moment during the brief moments before your suit administers an antidote and your health regenerates back to what it was.  Drawing from that pool of "fuck with the player without ever being outright unfair" is a perfect starting point to make a threatening final boss fight without arbitrary power-up sequences.

[Meta77]

That mess of a story plot hope still baffles me. The best I can think of was sonic knew his brain was a weak spot.  Plus he was like the first boss

[Pawn]

24 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Seeing as the emeralds are a ultimate form of a power up yes sonic should lose. Tell me how would he have handled final hazard.  Metal overlords. Perfect dark gaia in the earth core with no platforms over .molten magma.

The battle could just not take place in mid-air/space? I mean the only reason they do in the first place is to justify the use of Super Sonic. It usually has very little to do with the perceived strength of the final boss.

[Meta77]

3 minutes ago, Pawn said:

The battle could just not take place in mid-air/space? I mean the only reason they do in the first place is to justify the use of Super Sonic. It usually has very little to do with the perceived strength of the final boss.

OOK I'll raise you one. After final hazard while atm is crashing how would they have stopped it. How would have shadow moved the black comet.  Solaris would have wiped out all existence.  yes some fights do not need him cause the stakes are not as high. If sonic isn't super typically I take it he views the threat as small enough to why bigger and is playing around

On topic I'm hoping sonic goes super at some point in forces

30 minutes ago, JezMM said:

If you want a boss to feel big and threatening just make it a series of smaller bosses where you slowly weaken it's defenses before going in for the kill.

Which frankly is a perfect setup if we're dealing with testing three different gameplay styles, and honestly, I feel "level" type bosses are always the perfect way to cap off a game ever since Mario 3D Land and World did so well with them.  There's no better climax for a platformer than a dramatic test of platforming.

 

 

EDIT: Spectacle can also go a long way to making a boss feel threatening.  The final attack of Big Swell in Sonic Rush Adventure made me genuinely sweat - the music and the enclosing lasers feel SO threatening due to their visual design with no way out in sight - then at the last second the boss collapses and it's weak point comes in reach again.  As long as you follow your intuition, most players won't die... but they sure as hell will feel like they're about to the first time they play, which honestly is enough for me for a final boss.

Having one hit kills that are fairly easy to overcome goes a long way to making a boss threatening, or attacks that are hard to avoid but don't kill you outright - but DO put you in a temporary state of serious jeapordy.  I always think of the Poison Headcrabs from Half-Life 2.  Director commentary mentions how they're great for jumpscares, because they drain your health to 1 without ever killing you.  You rarely face them with other enemies around, but the first time you play the game you won't know that and it makes every single time one gets you a panic moment during the brief moments before your suit administers an antidote and your health regenerates back to what it was.  Drawing from that pool of "fuck with the player without ever being outright unfair" is a perfect starting point to make a threatening final boss fight without arbitrary power-up sequences.

Big swell? All you literally do is jump.

A boss that employs terror is one that hurts super sonic like the original big arms. The first time your slammed you think since your super your ok. Hell no it boss takes everything from you. Super sonic has always been written as a the stakes are now to high to keep dishing out corney jokes and I need to get this done.  If not for super eggman would still have the master emerald.  the future games he toyed with taking it.

[Auroxen]

17 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Big swell? All you literally do is jump.

That's the point, a lot of tension from very little actual gameplay effort.

18 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

A boss that employs terror is one that hurts super sonic like the original big arms.

Wasn't that a glitch? I don't think it's relevant to this discussion.

[Meta77]

11 minutes ago, Auroxen said:

That's the point, a lot of tension from very little actual gameplay effort.

Wasn't that a glitch? I don't think it's relevant to this discussion.

Not really tension is final hazard dumb lasers Pushing you back at 15 rings and you rushing to switch.  jumping from mild speed lasers.  not so much then again. After 26 years of sonic games non really even tense me up besides doomsday zone

 

No I thought that was legit hurting him. No it's on topic. If sonic goes super in forces I want him to a really get hurt. I want him to win but actually struggle to win for once

[JezMM]

Super Sonic has just lost his luster for me.  I'm bored of final bosses where basically every attack just knocks you around and wastes your time rather than actually having a chance of killing you.  It makes every Super Sonic fight kind of just feel like two rubber balls bouncing off of each other.

 

In that sense I actually get what they were going for when they made the odd decision in Unleashed to give Super Sonic a regular health bar instead.

[Nepenthe]

1 minute ago, JezMM said:

Super Sonic has just lost his luster for me.  I'm bored of final bosses where basically every attack just knocks you around and wastes your time rather than actually having a chance of killing you.  It makes every Super Sonic fight kind of just feel like two rubber balls bouncing off of each other.

This. Granted, half of my issue with Super Sonic is that he never really has to go to any great lengths to earn the power. There never is and never was any actual build-up to Sonic attaining the form, so even discounting predictability there's rarely any catharsis when finally attaining the form.

Really, if they can't find a way to make him bad-ass, why not just make him an automatic in-game unlockable when you beat the final boss while delegating other collectibles like Red Rings to unlocking new levels?

[JezMM]

Yeah, I absolutely don't want Super Sonic to be the final unlockable again.  I really hope Red Rings unlock something actually interesting like in Generations, but secret levels would be ideal.

I'd even take a Hard Mode over Super Sonic, I want a reward that provides additional content, not makes the game easier.

[Meta77]

3 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

This. Granted, half of my issue with Super Sonic is that he never really has to go to any great lengths to earn the power. There never is and never was any actual build-up to Sonic attaining the form, so even discounting predictability there's rarely any catharsis when finally attaining the form.

Really, if they can't find a way to make him bad-ass, why not just make him an automatic in-game unlockable when you beat the final boss while delegating other collectibles like Red Rings to unlocking new levels?

That's what I'm saying why not have a boss that actually makes super struggle. Hell have a boss fight so intense he falls out of super and you have to reearn the power.  Or the emeralds won't activate until sonic shows he's worthy. 

[Nepenthe]

I mean, you can do that, but I'm so over Super Sonic that I'm not invested in trying to fix him. If they did that, or if they just made the final boss a fight that actually relied on previous skills you learned (assuming Forces will actually have a difficulty curve), I wouldn't particularly care either way.

[JezMM]

Actually, here's another idea: the chaos emeralds are involved in the finale, but only Eggman gets his hands on them.  Eggman's mech is fully powered up and Sonic has to beat it or retrieve the emeralds with his normal power.  Now that'd make for a threatening fight.  Once Sonic gets the emeralds (if at all), the final push is a cakewalk and you just get to go to town on that bitch, but the leadup to that point is a real struggle.

It'd make for a kind of fun cut-scene moment if Sonic and team actually mentioned "ugh if only we had the chaos emeralds, I'd have the power to beat this guy easily" and Eggman, his gloaty self, could be all "Oh... that's a point... you mean THESE emeralds!?" and whips his pants off reveals himself to be in possession of them, adding to the intimidation factor before the battle.

[Meta77]

4 minutes ago, JezMM said:

Yeah, I absolutely don't want Super Sonic to be the final unlockable again.  I really hope Red Rings unlock something actually interesting like in Generations.

Super sonic is fine as a end game unlock for speed runs or just for fun. Better than unlockable music or art

[Muscles Maximum]

I have to agree about Super Sonic being played out and being relied on way too much. My favorite final boss is actually the Egg Nega Wisp from Colors. I love how the Chaos Emeralds weren't present at all in the story. The ending felt so satisfying, and Sonic in his base form is really very capable. I mean yeah, I understand he has limitations, and sometimes Super Sonic might be necessary. But I really like Sonic doing things with his own power.

To be honest the DB fanboy within me believes that Sonic has grown stronger over the years. Or I guess over the span of the games since it isn't clear how much time passes. Hence why he could defeat Perfect Chaos in base in Generations, while he needed Super Sonic for that in the past. Also as a DB fan, Super Sonic has become way too obvious and is a lot less special nowadays. I've always felt like the Boost is basically an evolution of the Peel Out, being better in every way. Stuff like that. I understand that bit kind of delves more into headcanon territory but I wanted to bring it up anyway.

Speaking of DB. What if the Chaos Emeralds are not present here/have been destroyed/have gone missing at some point so no one could have relied on them to defeat Eggman, leading to the events we've seen in the game?

[Meta77]

1 minute ago, JezMM said:

Actually, here's another idea: the chaos emeralds are involved in the finale, but only Eggman gets his hands on them.  Eggman's mech is fully powered up and Sonic has to beat it or retrieve the emeralds with his normal power.  Now that'd make for a threatening fight.  Once Sonic gets the emeralds (if at all), the final push is a cakewalk and you just get to go to town on that bitch, but the leadup to that point is a real struggle.

That be fair. Long as you can't hurt the next but only remove the emeralds since there supposed 5oto be all powerful than yes whail away on him

[JosepHenry]

A final boss with only normal Sonic and a giant Eggman robot flying around to kill you sounds cool. Something like that Sonic Chrono Adventure fangame with that terrifing Eggman thing watching over you (Without Super transformations)

They can give you only one ring in every phase or something like that to make it harder.

Or they could even give you exactly 50 rings in the level so if you collect them all you can turn Super Sonic right at the end

[JezMM]

"Super sonic is fine as a end game unlock for speed runs or just for fun. Better than unlockable music or art"

^{(Messed up quoting this and it seems I can't edit it in by copy/pasting it from a new post lol)}

I just don't see the appeal really.  I used to play with Super Sonic on Sonic 3 & Knuckles back when I wasn't so good at it, but now that I am I find it way more fun to play regular Sonic the whole way through.

Super Sonic should absolutely be in the game for those who enjoy him, but considering he makes the game easier, I think everyone should get to play him as a post-credits unlock rather than him being a reward for the best players - who probably want a further challenge as their reward for doing everything else in the game.

[Meta77]

1 minute ago, Strong Guy said:

I have to agree about Super Sonic being played out and being relied on way too much. My favorite final boss is actually the Egg Nega Wisp from Colors. I love how the Chaos Emeralds weren't present at all in the story. The ending felt so satisfying, and Sonic in his base form is really very capable. I mean yeah, I understand he has limitations, and sometimes Super Sonic might be necessary. But I really like Sonic doing things with his own power.

To be honest the DB fanboy within me believes that Sonic has grown stronger over the years. Or I guess over the span of the games since it isn't clear how much time passes. Hence why he could defeat Perfect Chaos in base in Generations, while he needed Super Sonic for that in the past. Also as a DB fan, Super Sonic has become way too obvious and is a lot less special nowadays. I've always felt like the Boost is basically an evolution of the Peel Out, being better in every way. Stuff like that. I understand that bit kind of delves more into headcanon territory but I wanted to bring it up anyway.

Speaking of DB. What if the Chaos Emeralds are not present here/have been destroyed/have gone missing at some point so no one could have relied on them to defeat Eggman, leading to the events we've seen in the game?

That or eggman has them. Simply using the plot normal sonic can do everything is just silly.  he is talented a d strong but eggman smarter than that than to keep making Willy cowotte mechs that he knows sonic will trash in his sleep lol

[Kellan]

2 hours ago, Auroxen said:

Then how did he defeat Perfect Chaos in Sonic Generations?

Actually this always bugged me. While the Generations Perfect Chaos boss fight is fun, I really don't like that you're not Super Sonic for that fight. Two reasons, one minor, one major:

1. It retroactively makes Perfect Chaos seem like less if a threat. This isn't that big of a deal, since it can easily be explained by "Sonic has gotten more powerful since Sonic Adventure".

2. It completely ignores the story of Sonic Adventure. In the original boss fight, they make a big deal of saying that simply killing Perfect Chaos is not the answer, as it would just reseal him in the Master Emerald with all of his hate, forever. So, Sonic had to go Super and use the positive energy of the Chaos Emeralds in order to purge Chaos of his hate. But because you don't have the Chaos Emeralds in Generations, you just murder him instead. That really cheapens the climax of Sonic Adventure, and goes against what they've already established. Plus, now I don't know which timeline is real. Is Chaos healed through the power of Super Sonic, or did regular Sonic just kill him at Station Square?

My point, that I'm making in a desperate attempt to keep this rant on topic, is that they should use the Chaos Emeralds if it helps make the story better.

[Radiant Hero Ike]

Man all I want is for Super Sonic to work in normal stages without glitches for once, he had some strange graphical errors in SLW (unless his spines were supposed to go back down whilst parkouring) and his boost flight in Gens got me stuck in walls several times.

I think he was okay in Colors but it's been years since I've picked that game up, so I don't remember.

I like cinematic Super Sonic final bosses but they've gotta do something to spice it up this time around. I liked how Unleashed did it, where you started off as normal Sonic. It'd be cool if there was like, a dramatic reverse situation where you start as Super, but then Sonic couldn't beat it in time and runs out of energy, and then you fight the second phase ringless (like in the old games, which was super hard for me and I still need save states to beat them, but).

Although since Classic and Bubsy are a thing I doubt this'll happen. :V

[Meta77]

32 minutes ago, Kellan said:

Actually this always bugged me. While the Generations Perfect Chaos boss fight is fun, I really don't like that you're not Super Sonic for that fight. Two reasons, one minor, one major:

1. It retroactively makes Perfect Chaos seem like less if a threat. This isn't that big of a deal, since it can easily be explained by "Sonic has gotten more powerful since Sonic Adventure".

2. It completely ignores the story of Sonic Adventure. In the original boss fight, they make a big deal of saying that simply killing Perfect Chaos is not the answer, as it would just reseal him in the Master Emerald with all of his hate, forever. So, Sonic had to go Super and use the positive energy of the Chaos Emeralds in order to purge Chaos of his hate. But because you don't have the Chaos Emeralds in Generations, you just murder him instead. That really cheapens the climax of Sonic Adventure, and goes against what they've already established. Plus, now I don't know which timeline is real. Is Chaos healed through the power of Super Sonic, or did regular Sonic just kill him at Station Square?

My point, that I'm making in a desperate attempt to keep this rant on topic, is that they should use the Chaos Emeralds if it helps make the story better.

Damn I agree with all this XD

[Blue Blood]

Normally I'm bothered by continuity screw ups in the series. With things like Blaze, Nega, the Wisps, the whole is Lost World and S4's supposed story, you know that Sonic Team has basically just not given a crap about the plot inconsistencies and other questions incurred. But Generations is a special case. It's an anniversary game first, celebrating some of the most memorable moments from Sonic's then 20 year history. The narrative quite reasonably plays second fiddle. It doesn't matter that Crisis City exists only in the future of an alternative timeline or that the Perfect Chaos fight makes no sense plot wise; they were important and memorable moments, so they got remade and tweaked to work within Generations narrative and gameplay.

Forces has a lot more to answer for on that particular front. Why is Classic Sonic returning? Why is Green Hill now filled with sand? How did Eggman even end up taking control? I'm certainly not asking for a deep plot with numerous twists, surprises and mature themes (almost the opposite in fact), but I do want them to have made an effort. Any of these elements being handwaved will be really disappointing.