Sonic Forces | PS4, Xbox One, Switch, PC "The Next Generations"

[Nuggets]

Big ass post incoming, so spoiler:

Spoiler

1 hour ago, Diogenes said:

Here's talking about Forces: I don't want Forces' tone to be like SA2's because SA2's was bad. Sonic is better when it doesn't take itself painfully seriously; have dramatic stakes and big action scenes and all, but don't try to play it like you're being serious. You're not going to wring real drama out of a hedgehog fighting an egg-man.

You've said this a couple times throughout this thread. Sonic is better when it doesn't take itself seriously, yeah, but that's only because for the most part, every time the franchise has tried to do anything remotely serious, it's turned out stupid, for one reason or another: Sci-fi government conspiracy and child murder amongst the silly adventures of colorful animals? Kind of hard to swallow. Alien warfare, copious swearing, machine guns and a convoluted backstory being told amongst the silly adventures of colorful animals? Laughable. A bestiality-ridden romantic "save the princess" plot with confusing time-travel and multiple twists and death and post-apocalyptic angst amongst the sill- I mean, you get it. It's all been kinda stupid. It doesn't play by the rules of "hedgehog fights scientist who turns animals into robots with magic rocks". But I don't think that means you can't "wring real drama" out of these characters.

if you don't like toy story then you can stop reading here but who doesn't like Toy Story? It's fuckin toy story.

Pixar is a cliche as fuck example, but take Toy Story. At it's core, it's a story about some fuckin' toys that can talk. By your logic (correct me if I'm wrong here- I am a lot) there's nothing to be wrung from that dramatically. And if Toy Story's plot involved Woody and Buzz banding together with the toys of children of dangerous drug dealers to bust a worldwide crack cocaine operation and ended with some moral about how Ronald Reagan was evil, I'd wholeheartedly agree with you that that's... Well, fucking stupid.  But Toy Story never really goes beyond it's scope - everywhere the plot moves to makes sense and never really goes beyond it's own set of rules - and at the core is just a story about jealousy and the fear of being abandoned. The premise of the characters being toys is novel, but what got Toy Story it's critical acclaim was it's ability to connect to audiences on a deeper level and be serious when it needed to. That's what all stories (the good ones, anyway) are based in: emotion.

You are correct - Sonic is silly, and it's premise lends itself to not being serious. But if you boil something down to base elements like that, everything sounds stupid. A kid that finds a giant robot during the Cold War sounds stupid. A vampire kid wandering around the apocalypse with an old guy who can control ice sounds stupid. A kid falling in love with a fish - look, it all sounds dumb as shit, but the way most of those were executed resulted in what most people agree are poignant, beautiful stories. Like the Chris Knopps guy said earlier, it's not really about the premise you're writing with - I'd argue that that almost doesn't matter at all - it's the execution, what you're mining from. And Sonic's has just been notably poor. While I like SA2, I would say that  aside from Unleashed, Adventure is the only time the series ever really truly hit the mark, staying in it's own lane, expanding on already established lore and rules, and keeping a consistent, not totally serious tone, but competent enough. But when shit does get serious - when Tikal's dad is about to trample the Chao? When Gamma blows himself up? When Tails realizes he needs to man up because there's nobody else to do it for him? WHEN BIG LOSES FROGGY? I don't know if it worked for you, but damn did it work for me. And while I know you're a fan of Pontaff's stuff, I'd like a series that at the very least tried for something beyond corny jokes on a static background and a semblance of a plot. Colors and Lost World were cool for what they were tho.

Perhaps it's just because for so long, the word "serious" in this franchise has been synonymous with poor games and mind-fuckingly stupid plots (or in the case of SA2, just sort of hard to swallow), but I think if Sonic just worked to make a good, solid plot that stays within the boundaries of what Sonic established in the classics and certain 3D games, that you could get some really cool, heartfelt shit. It doesn't have to be all silly, all the time. And it doesn't have to be all heavy, unbelievable dark shit all the time. There's a middle ground that even this series can walk. Even beyond the stakes, the big action set pieces, egg shaped Death Stars, and lasers, we can care about these characters and become invested in them and their world. I don't think it really matters that he's a blue hedgehog fighting a man with an obesity problem. With good writing, you can make anything believable. You just have to stay inside the set of rules you've given yourself. 

Now, will Forces do that? I have little to no hope that it will. But the note of a tone closer to Adventure gives me hope.

whew

[Meta77]

Just now, Tracker_TD said:

They did do it anyway!

And it sucked! So the point is, don't do the thing that sucked, innit. 

How did it suck. Tell me how any of that ruined the games. Tell me how no one bought the games nor bought the games upon re release because of those things. Hell kids saw darker things in courage the cowardly dog.

[Nepenthe]

I remember when Pokemon The First Movie basically did SA2's story first and nobody complained about there being an irreconcilable tone clash. Hell, I don't even remember the outrage for Sun and Moon's story.

[JosepHenry]

9 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

And yet they did it anyway. What are you getting at with that?

Even when I played SA2 first time when I was 10 (Right after Heroes) I asked myself... What the hell this is doing in a Sonic game?

I don't care if the game was made in 2001, that kind of plot doesn't fit Sonic at all. And if I was in charge of the plot, I would certainly tone down certain moments of the game.

Quote

I remember when Pokemon The First Movie basically did SA2's story first and nobody complained about there being an irreconcilable tone clash. Hell, I don't even remember the outrage for Sun and Moon's story.

Well, I think that the story was quite dark for Pokemon standards. But I didn't saw Amber getting shot by miltary, and her grandfather getting executed.

[Wraith]

Sonic Adventure 2's problems were always more of a technical problem than a tone one for me. A character like Shadow who has a bit more emotional baggage shouldn't be limited from existing, imo. There was just a lot of mishandling going on in terms of both how they delivered his story and how they followed up on it. 

But if they found a way to implement it in a way as elegantly as Sonic CD's destruction of Little Planet, or Mario Galaxy's storybook I wonder if people would still be turning their noses up at it, y'know? 

[Tracker_TD]

3 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

How did it suck. Tell me how any of that ruined the games. Tell me how no one bought the games nor bought the games upon re release because of those things. Hell kids saw darker things in courage the cowardly dog.

Are we doing the "it sold well so it must be good!" argument again. Are we reeeeeeeeeeeeeeally doing that again.

In a world where Sonic the Hedgehog (2006 Video Game) became a Platinum Family Hit for the Xbox 360 console, we are arguing it sold well so it was good.

I now choose to invoke the words of SSMB legend, and say,

Nah.

[Diogenes]

4 minutes ago, CrystalStorm51 said:

Also, that last part seems to be more based on what you think. Like I said, maybe Sonic is best at being what it originally was supposed to be, but having a dark tone or a serious one, and trying to be something else isn't always a bad thing to do or have. Not everyone has to approve, but it CAN be done.

I really can't think of any case where it's legitimately worked out in the series' favor.

3 minutes ago, Celestia said:

I'm genuinely curious, when have the characters ever dwelled too much on something? One of the reasons I'm fine with SA2's tone is that everyone in the main cast seems way more focused on their personal grudges with their rivals than the world being at stake. I can understand people's problems with that game when factoring in the Final Story, tho'.

Shadow's whole deal in SA2, for one. That's not the kind of story that the series needed.

I mean, real talk, I don't hate everything about SA2's story. It's even got some of my favorite moments for Sonic himself. But the good parts are pretty much all separate from the "serious", "dramatic" parts. Sonic and Shadow trash talking each other feels way more "Sonic" than "a crazy man turned his test tube hedgehog into a weapon to destroy humanity because the government killed his granddaughter".

3 minutes ago, Celestia said:

I wouldn't say CD is super dark or anything but I don't see anything wrong with engaging enough with it to take the Bad Futures at least a little bit seriously. Otherwise there's not really much point to 'em.

I take it seriously to the extent of "oh man Eggman's bein' a dick through time, better go stop that shit and make a Good Future!" and I think that is, more or less, how the game is meant to be taken.

Just now, Meta77 said:

Wait after much though who exactly sets these magical rules sonic can not be any of those things is Sega so wished it. It is their property after all.

Sure, they could do literally anything with the series if they wanted to. But not everything is going to work, honest intent or not, because no property is infinitely flexible. A series has to define what it is and what it isn't, it may be wide or it may be narrow, it may be fuzzy around the edges, but there are boundaries.

Just now, Meta77 said:

Sometimes I think fans think they hold to tight a grip on what THEY think sonic should be.

Shit man you and me both, now why can't those Adventure fans just let go...

[Meta77]

Whew some of these post are making my temples throb haha

How I think a day at sega goes.

[Tracker_TD]

3 minutes ago, Meta77 said:

Whew some of these post are making my temples throb haha

How I think a day at sega goes.

I mean, I do like Sonic. I've got plenty of good things to say about the series; the music's always great, aesthetically I think it's done a good job of being pretty much consistently appealing, and the likes of the Classics, or SA1 are still generally good times. 

Likewise, I can also say Sonic Adventure 2's tone is shit, because Sonic Adventure 2's tone is pretty shit. Innit. 

[Dee Dude]

This won't mean anything or even matter since it's just a simple opinion but I've been playing SA2 recently and I think the dark tone story was handled pretty well, is Sonic usually meant to be dark? No, but SA2's shows that dark and serious tones can work in Sonic. I could say the same applies to "raunchy comedy." It was kinda weak at first sure, but that's just a case of bad writing.

But here's my real question: What do you WANT Sonic to be if being serious or goofy doesn't fit for it?

[Tracker_TD]

1 minute ago, Dee Dude said:

This won't mean anything or even matter since it's just a simple opinion but I've been playing SA2 recently and I think the dark tone story was handled pretty well, is Sonic usually meant to be dark? No, but SA2's shows that dark and serious tones can work in Sonic. I could say the same apply to "raunchy comedy."

But here's my real question: What do you WANT to Sonic be if being serious or goofy can't work for it?

...not particularly either of those extremes? 

[Nepenthe]

4 minutes ago, JosepMelloZSM said:

Well, I think that the story was quite dark for Pokemon. But I didn't saw Amber getting shot by miltary, and her grandfather getting executed.

But I bet you haven't complained over a decade and a half later that Pokemon the First Movie basically was the beginning of the end and the people who liked it are abnormal.

And true, but it did have implied child abuse, blatant unethical animal experimentation, and body horror. Since we're directly equating scenarios without much reasonable regard for the execution, it's like the Plague Dogs mixed with The Thing... and child abuse.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Response to someone else about the Adventure games sucking: It sucking is clearly yours and others opinions. Let's not act as if it is a fact and because of this "fact", the series shouldn't do something serious. They can do something serious if it is written WELL.

[Tracker_TD]

2 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

But I bet you haven't complained over a decade and a half later that Pokemon the First Movie basically was the beginning of the end and the people who liked it are abnormal.

Probably because we're not in a Pokemon community, we're in a Sonic community, innit. Like if my dude Josep's a huge Pokemon fan sure, but I ain't seeing the evidence for that. 

[Dee Dude]

I honestly thought the seriousness was already done well up until you-know-what.

[JosepHenry]

Just now, Nepenthe said:

But I bet you haven't complained over a decade and a half later that Pokemon the First Movie basically was the beginning of the end and the people who liked it are abnormal.

And true, but it did have implied child abuse, blatant unethical animal experimentation, and body horror. Since we're directly equating scenarios without much reasonable regard for the execution, it's like the Plague Dogs mixed with The Thing... and child abuse.

What?! I'm not judging! Nobody here is abnormal for liking something that I don't! I like SA2, is just those very dark moments that I didn't like.

 

Rrrrright.... Okay point taken...

[Nepenthe]

I didn't say you were judging. I'm clearly referring to the backlash in attitude that Adventure fans receive.

I'm also poking at the idea that the military stuff in SA2 was some particularly egregious Call of Duty serious political intrigue shit.

[Tracker_TD]

Also yeah, saying any of us are implying "you're abnormal!" for actually liking SA2's stuff is hilariously overreactive innit. I think the day I start calling anyone "abnormal" over Sonic outside of random claims that I am is the day I've lost track.

Sheesh, I like Sonic Drift. I don't get to make an "abnormal" call.

Same goes for this "that's your opinion!" thing. Like, y'think? 

[Nepenthe]

5 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

Probably because we're not in a Pokemon community, we're in a Sonic community, innit. Like if my dude Josep's a huge Pokemon fan sure, but I ain't seeing the evidence for that. 

I have literally never even seen this sentiment in any notable capacity in the Pokemon community so there you go.

2 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

Also yeah, saying any of us are implying "you're abnormal!" for actually liking SA2's stuff is hilariously overreactive innit. I think the day I start calling anyone "abnormal" over Sonic outside of random claims that I am is the day I've lost track.

Sheesh, I like Sonic Drift. I don't get to make an "abnormal" call.

If you're going to poke at people for thinking that any engagement with the weird-ass and sometimes sad shit in the Sonic series beyond "cool, let's go stop Eggman!!!" is somehow wrong, even in jest, I get to point that out, don't I? Let's also not act like Adventure fans don't get shit on in general. They're probably only above Sonic 06 fans in the pecking order at this point. We're adults here...I think. Yeah, I think we're all adults. So we can be honest. =P

[Tracker_TD]

6 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

I have literally never even seen this sentiment in any notable capacity in the Pokemon community so there you go.

Good for you? I guess? 

I mean, Idk what to tell you. "This other community doesn't mention this opinion-based thing, so neither should this community!" I mean like... alright then? 

Quote

If you're going to poke at people for thinking that any engagement with the weird-ass and sometimes sad shit in the Sonic series beyond "cool, let's go stop Eggman!!!" is somehow wrong, even in jest, I get to point that out, don't I?

If you're going to take my comic about average people stopping mid-playthrough to consider the socio-environmental consequences of Sonic CD particularly in explicit detail completely seriously, then

Well, I get bemused and that's about it 

[JosepHenry]

10 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

I have literally never even seen this sentiment in any notable capacity in the Pokemon community so there you go.

Frankly, I'm not that big of a fan of Pokemon... I just watched the movie twice. 

11 minutes ago, Nepenthe said:

I didn't say you were judging. I'm clearly referring to the backlash in attitude that Adventure fans receive.

I'm also poking at the idea that the military stuff in SA2 was some particularly egregious Call of Duty serious political intrigue shit.

Is that I'm just not used to that kind of plot being used in a kids friendly game, that's all...

(Also, I have a "fear" of seeing people getting killed by gunshots so seeing Maria getting shot mortfied me as kid maybe that's that)

 

Anyway, getting off topic...

[Diogenes]

36 minutes ago, Nuggets said:

Pixar is a cliche as fuck example, but take Toy Story.

The thing about Toy Story is that it could build these things in at the base level. They weren't adapting some existing property and trying to put a more serious twist on it, they could form the entire world around the story they wanted to tell. Woody's attachment to Andy, and to his position as Andy's favorite toy, and his fear of abandonment when Buzz shows up and Andy shifts his focus to him, are fundamental to the character. They are a big part of what makes Toy Story what it is.

That's not what's happened with Sonic. Sonic was simple and silly at the start. Cocky little spiky dude bops robots to stop a mad scientist and save his friends/the world. That's about all there was to it. And I'm not saying new elements can't be introduced, but it should all tie into the fundamental rules that the early games established, and there's just not much there to work with as far as being serious goes. Like, notice how practically none of the "serious" stories put the focus on Sonic himself? His rivalry with Shadow in SA2 is about the only time I can think of that they've accomplished anything substantial with him. That's not by accident, it's because he's not made for serious drama, he never had some fundamental flaw built into him from the start the way Woody did, and it's far too late to smoothly introduce one. So practically every attempt to be serious has had to revolve around some other character, and usually (after blowing their load with Tails's independence, Amy's independence, and Knuckles' history in SA) using new characters created specifically for that game, which has led to stories that aren't even really about Sonic, where at best he's stumbled into some new guy's problems and at worst he's just there to fight Eggman while the real story happens around him.

This is why I keep calling for a reboot. So maybe they can actually build some meaning into the characters and series from the start. But, y'know, Sonic is cursed, so fat chance of that working out even if they tried.

Quote

And while I know you're a fan of Pontaff's stuff, I'd like a series that at the very least tried for something beyond corny jokes on a static background and a semblance of a plot.

They did but everyone hated it.

e: like, this is the thing, one of the big problems people had with it was how they tried to inject more complexity into the main characters, and everyone cried "out of character!" They tried to do something more with the main characters, but the characters are just too simple for it!

[Nepenthe]

17 minutes ago, Tracker_TD said:

Good for you? I guess? 

I mean, Idk what to tell you. "This other community doesn't mention this opinion-based thing, so neither should this community!" I mean like... alright then? 

My point is that people are fans of things at the same time, and knowing this in general I don't see how people reconcile watching basically any bit of animation nowadays outside of Care Bears and then getting really triggered when Sonic does some of the same shit. Like, half of the reasoning I ultimately see for not allowing Sonic to actually be cool for coolness' sake anymore is that "It's a bloody cartoon hedgehog, why the fuck do you care about anything that happens?! Stop caring about cartoons!"

Well, I don't fucking know, maybe because we live at a point in society now where something being a cartoon isn't an impediment to engaging with things beyond a base level of generic conflict and excuse plot. I mean we just had a fucking Disney animated film with talking animals in it give one of the most poignant treatises on institutional racism in awhile, and that's counting live-action films too. Now I don't want Sonic to be Zootopia before anyone fucking quotes me on this ("Penth wants Sonic to talk about race because she's a dumb Adventure fan!") if for no other reason than I don't think any Japanese company, much less Sonic Team, would be able to get and parse American racial dynamics on that level anyway and thus it'd be an absolute embarrassment, but it's gotten to the point where we can't have guns, military, implied death, and even gotdamn destroyed cities anymore, stuff that exists in franchises people are undoubtedly fans of in similar magnitudes.

Note that last one: destroyed cities.

The most basic image for "things are bad!" ever is now something in contention as to whether or not it's appropriate for the franchise now. A franchise centered around what is ultimately a super hero who is up against a mad scientist/engineer dude with loads of fucking robots and weapons and airships that would probably leave some collateral damage behind.

We actually had people complain about cities being destroyed in Forces, when CD basically levels the entire planet in the future. And the badass OVA takes place extensively in a fucked up city. Where were the fucking complaints then?

I bet you next up on the chopping block is explosions. Bots cannot explode anymore upon impact with a Homing Attack. It's too dangerous.

[Meta77]

Another kid friendly idea of thinking. Ok megaman. The original US cartoon. Built for kids of all ages game wise yet the opening shows buildings burning, bombs being tossed every which way. Granted by todays standards we could not get away with some that "wild"

Same goes for sonic. it can be built for all ages yet have some serious moment throughout the series. or are you saying we need a rated K through E game because those sewious moments ruin the game vibe cause sonics showing serious moments

 

[Kellan]

12 minutes ago, Diogenes said:

They did but everyone hated it.

I don't know what you're referring to here.

Edit: Oh, wait. Do you just mean the serious parts of the series as a whole?