Sonic Mania (August 15th 2017, Christian Whitehead, PS4, Xbox One, PC, Switch) - The New Classic

[FReaK]

I really don't think the music is going to be a problem regarding Ice Cap Zone. If they want to do it, they probably will do it. Maybe the licensing problem was a time restricted problem? S3K collection came out 1997 iirc, that marks 20 years this year..and 23 years after the original release, the license may not be that big of a problem after all this time.

[Milo]

Interesting bit about the licensed Ice Cap remixes. Prow'd has the familiar main chorus at first, but after the first minute and a half, it very much sounds like a different tune. Antifreeze sounds very much like the original song though. So maybe there may be hope for latter half of Sonic 3 levels getting representation after all. 

As for the Sonic & Knuckles PC Collection, while it did change some tracks for the Sonic 3 half, it's also worth noting the Sonic Jam compilation on the Sega Saturn was released some four months later; and that is a very puzzling anomaly in that it has a port of Sonic 3 (as opposed to emulation in most re-releases) that also has the original music intact.

[Psychicmoose103]

honestly, if I'm being honest, I'd rather have launch base than ice cap zone. I just always liked the music more, the gimmicks more, and the theme and visuals more. However, I know more people would rather have icecap, so I'm cool if that gets in rather than my pick. As long as I get Hydrocity

[TheBlueGuardian]

If they choose Carnival Night, they better add that barrel that gave people the most trouble. However I would love to see Ice Cap Zone in Mania.

[FReaK]

14 hours ago, Gabe said:

Interesting bit about the licensed Ice Cap remixes. Prow'd has the familiar main chorus at first, but after the first minute and a half, it very much sounds like a different tune. Antifreeze sounds very much like the original song though. So maybe there may be hope for latter half of Sonic 3 levels getting representation after all. 

As for the Sonic & Knuckles PC Collection, while it did change some tracks for the Sonic 3 half, it's also worth noting the Sonic Jam compilation on the Sega Saturn was released some four months later; and that is a very puzzling anomaly in that it has a port of Sonic 3 (as opposed to emulation in most re-releases) that also has the original music intact.

that's true, didn't think about that. maybe they only changed the music in the pc version because of midi problems after all.

[Kintor]

47 minutes ago, TheBlueGuardian said:

If they choose Carnival Night, they better add that barrel that gave people the most trouble. However I would love to see Ice Cap Zone in Mania.

If they choose Carnival Night Zone they should find a way to make that barrel the miniboss in Act 1.

[CleverSonicUsername]

Launch Base opens with a little snowy area, implying it's in proximity to Ice Cap. What if you snowboarded into Launch Base rather than burrow your way there?

I mean I don't really know in the end, I kinda messed with my list to mention that Ice Cap is now a bit more likely, but I think I lean more on the side that it's a surfing sprite (as it was originally) and that you could possibly surf your way into (or surf during a section of) whatever water themed level we get. I saw someone mention it could be a rail grinding sprite and I guess that's another possibility. The pose seems a bit off to me if it is used for snowboarding, but also I don't snowboard or surf so what the fuck do I know.

[TB100]

On the topic of Special Stages, I wonder if the special stages will be inspired by this in some fashion? this was going to be in Sonic 3 remastered, and it would have been an extension of the Blue Spheres minigame, featuring new gimmicks and shit, considering that they're taking the Sonic 3 & Knuckles route with the special stage locations (Giant rings hidden in every zone.) and the fact that Blue Spheres 2 aligns perfectly with the idea behind Sonic Mania. (Old but new.) it'll make a lot of sense to put this idea to use. (I would prefer a new special stage, but i'll take Blue Spheres 2 over another Half-Pipe clone.) Plus a Tee Lopes remix of the Sonic 3 Special Stage music would be pure bliss to the ears.

[Milo]

Maybe a simplified version of Sonic 3's Special Stages could be implemented as a Bonus Stage, but I'd rather we get an entirely new Special Stage format. Especially one that doesn't follow on Sonic 2's half-pipe setup, that one has been as overused as Green Hill/Seaside Hill, if not moreso.

[Psychicmoose103]

Also, I am sure most of you have noticed, but there seems 2 be to tiers of running for all the characters. A normal speed and super speed state. I made an image for those who want to compare them.

 

Sorry if the Tails ones are not that good, they were the hardest to find.

[Badnik Mechanic]

Ok so... this... is probably wrong but.

You know how in Studiopolis we have that dancing Eggman who looks like he's from a black and white silent movie? 

Well... Tomy are releasing this later this year.

There is also a Tails figure like this too, no sign of Knuckles, it is not listed as a 'Sonic Mania' toy, but 'Classic Sonic'.

You don't think that maybe... in the other act we might get a Silent Movie Era Sonic?

[LongcrierCat]

Oh boy. Felix the Cat Sonic here we come?~ 

I mean, that'd be super nice to continue in on the 1930s film vibe here. 

[Jango]

A whole act with a black and white gimmick would be so AWESOME. I can imagine something like a switch/button (like Carnival Night) you jump on, and things become shades of grey. Oh please!

[TheOcelot]

3 hours ago, Jango said:

and things become shades of grey.

"Studiopolis Act2: 50 Shades of Grey". An erotic tale about a Hog and his Egg 

I prefer the idea of the Special Stages being completely new and the bonus stages (yeah we could have more than one, S&K did) being inspired by previous special stages or stage gimmicks, such as:

• Something similar to Choatix blue sphere hexagonal special stages.
• A bonus stage based off-of one of the the levels from Sonic Spinball such as Toxic Caves.
• Bring back the slot-machine from the S&K bonus stage/Casino Night.
• A bonus stage based off-of 3d Blast's (Saturn) special stage. Dat music!
• Maybe something similar to Sonic CD's special stage.
• Something based off-of Wacky Workbench's bouncy floor gimmick.

 

Edit: Over on Retro Stealth commented about Sonic 3's music issues regarding the S&K PC collection. Thought I'd post it here.

Quote

Ok, it's showing up enough that I feel like I have to step in on this. To my knowledge, there is absolutely no solid basis whatsoever for the claim that S&K Collection features different music for some zones because of sound samples or how the original song would otherwise sound in MIDI form. To the best of my recollection, I was the dumbass that started that rumor.

This was waaay back in like 97/98? I posed the possibility on probably the first incarnation of the "Sonic the Hedgehog: Area 51" messageboard because it was the only explanation I could come up with, not then being able to fathom the idea of complicated and insufficient third-party contracts, and for the same reason, people ran wild with it. Unless somebody can actually trace the same idea back to another source, I'm confident in taking responsibility and asserting that it's baseless.

Besides, plenty of people have made good MIDI conversions of those songs by now, and given (that I feel) that some of the ones that actually were in the game don't sound very good, I think this is practically proof-positive that the differences between MIDI/SMPS were a non-issue when considering only SEGA's perspective.

On the flip-side, there is enough evidence to support the idea that there's a legal problem, mostly in the form of interviews with people who would know, as well as others who could attest to a discrepancy between how video game companies and the music industry handle/handled legal matters, particularly back then. The split between normal and replaced songs in S&K collection even follows directly with the split between music produced in-house and music produced by third-party.

Anyway, the MIDI thing is crap. I know because my own idiocy spawned it.

 

[Nightly]

Ok this is suuuuuuuper nitpicky, but if they're really aiming to capture the design of old 20's and 30's cartoons they should've really coloured him like this.

This kind of face design is much more in line with characters like Oswald the Lucky Rabbit, Mickey Mouse, and Felix the Cat. If Sonic were actually a cartoon made back then his muzzle would've been white instead of grey as it's more clearly readable which was really important for designs like this.

That said though it's really cool that there's an old-timey Sonic figure at all and I'd be so down for Act 2 of Studiopolis being like that.

[mikeblastdude]

Just wanted to chime in - I'm pretty sure we've already seen a small portion of Studiopolis Act 2. If I'm not mistaken, we haven't seen that lottery ball part form the initial trailer anywhere in Act 1, so I always figured that was going to be in Act 2, which kind of dismisses the idea of the entire act being silent movie styled. Although it's still possible that it could be implemented for a specific part of the level. I do really like that concept.

[Psychicmoose103]

9 minutes ago, mikeblastdude said:

Just wanted to chime in - I'm pretty sure we've already seen a small portion of Studiopolis Act 2. If I'm not mistaken, we haven't seen that lottery ball part form the initial trailer anywhere in Act 1, so I always figured that was going to be in Act 2, which kind of dismisses the idea of the entire act being silent movie styled. Although it's still possible that it could be implemented for a specific part of the level. I do really like that concept.

Definitely from act 2. Another glimpse of it is in the second drop dash clip.

[CleverSonicUsername]

We have definitely seen small portions of Act 2, and it's certainly not in black and white. If there is a 30's style Sonic, I would expect it to be on projection screens like Robotnik in Act 1. They also said there would be a variety of filters for the game, so a greyscale filter could be possible.

That music thing blows, but I'm glad Stealth cleared it up. Assuming it is preventing any levels from being included, I would be more than happy to settle for new tracks. I wonder how much the developers of Sonic Mania now know about any legal issues related to specific levels, or if the most information they've got is pitching levels to SEGA and just having them go "nope."

edit: As far as special stages, I do hope it's something new, though I'd have to assume it will still use that behind-the-back perspective, as has been tradition. But hey maybe they'll go for something even fresher than that, I wouldn't be opposed to it. If they do reuse a special stage style, I would prefer blue spheres. I think most special stages in Sonic games blow. The stages in 1 feel like you're wrestling with the level, the ones in 2 are all about rote memorization, and CD's (while my favorite in terms of visual style) always felt clunky, even in the remake. Blue Spheres felt real good, though, so good that I kinda like playing it on the side.

[Jango]

I wish I'be alive to see the day where SEGA finally clears up this music mess... Wonder if they told something to the Mania Team that nobody else knows, because well... They are working for/with SEGA. Like "-So, we want to re-imagine Ice Cap" and SEGA goes like "-Nope, can't do that".

[expansivelovestories]

It's possible that any restrictions about the second half of Sonic 3, either external or self imposed (for example if the Mania team itself would like all of the reimagined zones to include their original music in some form) have indeed been a blessing only slightly in disguise, allowing transformations of zones that might have otherwise been left out!  

Those three are some of the best zone layouts/designs/graphics even out of the whole of S3K.  Although I understand what people say sometimes about Ice Cap's layouts, it excels in following in the spirit of Star Light and Sky Chase as a faster paced, more simple zone that leads to Eggman's current stronghold, whether terrestrial or airborne. 

In many ways, to keep them as zones exclusive to the original game would be as special as being able to remake them! 

This does somehow make me wonder whether the zones are placed chronologically, and they probably aren't!  This could be something that won't be revealed until either the game's release or any preview-reviews. 

 

 

 

 

 

[Chris Knopps]

1 hour ago, Jango said:

I wish I'be alive to see the day where SEGA finally clears up this music mess... Wonder if they told something to the Mania Team that nobody else knows, because well... They are working for/with SEGA. Like "-So, we want to re-imagine Ice Cap" and SEGA goes like "-Nope, can't do that".

Do they have the financial means to fix things like this? I'm kind of surprised we're still getting another game on the scope P17 seems to be going for. I'd expect titles like Mania to be the norm of the franchise by now to save money.

I'm just assuming they're that broke, but it doesn't seem like it'd be too far a stretch to say resources might not be there. Not for game related things mind you.

[Kintor]

17 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Do they have the financial means to fix things like this? I'm kind of surprised we're still getting another game on the scope P17 seems to be going for. I'd expect titles like Mania to be the norm of the franchise by now to save money.

I'm just assuming they're that broke, but it doesn't seem like it'd be too far a stretch to say resources might not be there. Not for game related things mind you.

It might surprise you to learn that Sega Holdings is actually one of the biggest corporations in Japan, with a huge amount of money and resources in areas beyond retail games. Everything from children's toys to sprawling resort complexes are owned by Sega and managed by one of its sub-divisions. Even companies you might not realise like Atlus (Persona and Megami Tensei) and TMS Entertainment (Lupin the 3rd and Detective Conan) are wholly owned by Sega. So, this means that Sega has plenty of money to throw at the problem, to sort out the issues with Sonic 3's music, but it probably isn't that simple.

If it's a legal issue then getting to the truth behind Sonic 3's music could be next to impossible, regardless of how much money Sega spends. I mean, the rights to those tracks could have ended up in legal limbo since the 90s and no one has any real idea who owns the music today. This sort of legal confusion happens more often than you think in the entertainment industry, when you have multiple artists all contributing to a single project. Heck, for all we know the death of Michael Jackson has complicated matters further and his estate simply doesn't care enough about Sonic 3 to tell Sega if they have any legal rights to the music.

[Chris Knopps]

1 minute ago, Kintor said:

It might surprise you to learn that Sega Holdings is actually one of the biggest corporations in Japan, with a huge amount of money and resources in areas beyond retail games. Everything from children's toys to sprawling resort complexes are owned by Sega and managed by one of its sub-divisions. Even companies you might not realise like Atlus (Persona and Megami Tensei) and TMS Entertainment (Lupin the 3rd and Detective Conan) are wholly owned by Sega. So, this means that Sega has plenty of money to throw at the problem, to sort out the issues with Sonic 3's music, but it probably isn't that simple.

...Then what the heck is the deal with the Sonic franchise and why are they letting themselves seem like they're near deaths door in the rest of the world then? In regards to their funds of course I'm speaking based on assumptions, but if they're so well off overseas, they really need to start putting all they have into the Sonic franchise again, and perhaps into other games so they aren't known for "just Sonic" basically.

[CleverSonicUsername]

36 minutes ago, Chris Knopps said:

Do they have the financial means to fix things like this? I'm kind of surprised we're still getting another game on the scope P17 seems to be going for. I'd expect titles like Mania to be the norm of the franchise by now to save money.

I'm just assuming they're that broke, but it doesn't seem like it'd be too far a stretch to say resources might not be there. Not for game related things mind you.

SEGA's business is more broad than video game distribution, and they seem to be operating quite comfortably right now, so I don't think financials is something to worry about. I seriously doubt they're at a point where they need to cut back on production costs so much that they can only make games like Mania to save costs.

Edit: beaten

 

 

[JezMM]

Something I didn't even consider until now, rather than using the obscure PC tracks or new compositions to allow Carnival Night/Ice Cap/Launch Base... why not do that "loyalty-free" shtick instead?  Compare Mecha Green Hill = Green Hills, Sea Gate = Seaside Hill, Sylvania Castle Act 2 = Aquatic Ruin, Dragon Slayer = Volcano Valley (Saturn), Dreams of an Absolution = Green Hill, Believe in Myself = Bridge.

Obviously not all of those examples were actual intentional homages, and some of the intentional ones 100% lift parts of the melody from the original, but y'know what I mean... cartoons do it all the time when they want to parody a particular movie scene with memorable music etc, hell, Sonic Boom did it just an episode or two ago with the Kill Bill theme for some reason (the fight scene wasn't even vaguely a parody of Kill Bill so... I dunno maybe the musicians weren't feeling so creative or were misdirected lol).

Basically compose something that has all the same instruments, pacing, mood, key, etc... but the actual melody is just that slight bit different.  I reckon Tee Lopes could pull it off, Studiopolis is already bordering on homaging Stardust Speedway in it's stylings y'know?  Just do that homage thing but like, up to 11.