Pontaff Retrospective: What's Up with all the Hate?

[Nepenthe]

I don't know; taking the concepts of how to convey narrative and character from the medium that runs circles around gaming in that regard seems like a swell idea to me, especially if games are going to continue using cut scenes which are...you know...fucking movies.

Also because this shit is fucking clockwork in nearly every story-based discussion that goes on long enough, I propose a new term for this general discussion: The Misguided Consumer Principle. Rather than realize that one has the right to demand and expect a product whereby all aspects are good, gamers will rationalize or invoke an unnecessary dichotomy where the quality of one aspect of a game must be sacrificed for the sake of another. I also propose we invoke it like Godwin's Law so we can stop entertaining arguments like these as a logical point.

[Salamander]

People who enjoy Mario games are not enjoying it for the story, they're enjoying it for the gameplay. Mario has never been a story based series, but very gameplay "rich". As such it's fans are people who care mainly for the gameplay and not at all for the storyline.

Well, that very much depends on which Mario it is.  Arguably there are quite a few games under the extremely broad "Mario" umbrella which have stories worth attending to, most notably various of the RPG spin-offs - and that's not even starting on unconventional approaches in games like Wario Land 3, where the ever-evolving geography of the world map effectively plays the role of a story.

[Fake Hedgehog]

Well, that very much depends on which Mario it is.  Arguably there are quite a few games under the extremely broad "Mario" umbrella which have stories worth attending to, most notably various of the RPG spin-offs - and that's not even starting on unconventional approaches in games like Wario Land 3, where the ever-evolving geography of the world map effectively plays the role of a story.

It always "depends" and there are always "Well, technically"'s to pull out. There are "quite a few" Sonic games that have good gameplay and weak story aswell; Sonic 1-3, CD. Advance maybe.

The general rule is still that the Mario franchise is weak on story and strong on gameplay, Sonic the opposite. The respective audiences, community content and corporate management reflect this.

Nobody who likes Mario over Sonic does so because of the narrative.

And of what, some Waluigi side-baloney

[Nepenthe]

You can't complain about examples that refute your narrow and somewhat-false stereotypes because they're inconvenient. 

[FriendBot]

 There are "quite a few" Sonic games that have good gameplay and weak story aswell; Sonic 1-3, CD. Advance maybe.

Bruh, just because it doesn't tell you what the story is about doesn't mean it's a "weak" story, hasn't FNaF taught you anything?

It's the themes that were prominent in the classic games.

Sonic 1 and CD has themes of nature vs technology but CD also had themes of nature coinciding with technology, cue the Good Future versions of the levels. Sonic 2 can be considered the "weakest" in storytelling by default for me atleast since the story doesn't really come up until Oil Ocean. Sonic 3 though probably has the best story visually since it has very short cutscenes, it tells a basic story but how its presented is pretty amazing similar to Super Metroid even.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

It always "depends" and there are always "Well, technically"'s to pull out. There are "quite a few" Sonic games that have good gameplay and weak story aswell; Sonic 1-3, CD. Advance maybe.

 

I thought they were shitty games in gameplay to but others can disagree. 

For me I want a game thats fun but shows off Sonic in ways we havent seen,

[Roger_van_der_weide]

For me I want a game thats fun but shows off Sonic in ways we havent seen,

Uh, both previous Sonic Boom games did that. And Lost world. And Runners. And...

I think Sonic desperatly needs a new core Default game first instead of headfirst bumbling into a new crazy idea.
Sonic's way too bouncy between genre's and concepts.
It does nothing but shatter the fanbase into more and more sub-groups.
 

Edited October 2, 2015 by Roger_van_der_weide

[Fake Hedgehog]

Bruh, just because it doesn't tell you what the story is about doesn't mean it's a "weak" story, hasn't FNaF taught you anything?

It's the themes that were prominent in the classic games.

Sonic 1 and CD has themes of nature vs technology but CD also had themes of nature coinciding with technology, cue the Good Future versions of the levels. Sonic 2 can be considered the "weakest" in storytelling by default for me atleast since the story doesn't really come up until Oil Ocean. Sonic 3 though probably has the best story visually since it has very short cutscenes, it tells a basic story but how its presented is pretty amazing similar to Super Metroid even.

I knew you would say this. "It does have a story, you just have to read the manual and theories and imagine while you play!". They always say this.

What I think is that because you like the gameplay of these games, you are willing to excuse the lack of engaging narrative or even rationalize that there is one.

Just as I and many others are willing to excuse Adventure up to Black Knight's subpar gameplay or even rationalize it as good because the narrative and characterization satisfied me.

 

You can't complain about examples that refute your narrow and somewhat-false stereotypes because they're inconvenient. 

There are exceptions to every rule. That doesn't disprove the rule.

[FriendBot]

I knew you would say this. "It does have a story, you just have to read the manual and theories and imagine while you play". 

What I think is that because you like the gameplay of these games, you are willing to excuse the lack of engaging narrative or even rationalize that there is one.

Just as I and many others are willing to excuse Adventure up to Black Knight's subpar gameplay or even rationalize it as good because the narrative and characterization satisfied me.

 

Did you even read I said? I didn't even use the manuals, I used what was presented in the game. Sonic 3 literally shows you the story, Sonic 1 and CD indirectly tells you its story, you know kind of like what Five Nights at Freddy's did, or atleast its environmental themes.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Freddy Fuckboy

[Fake Hedgehog]

Hidden Content

Did you even read I said? I didn't even use the manuals, I used what was presented in the game. Sonic 3 literally shows you the story, Sonic 1 and CD indirectly tells you its story, you know kind of like what Five Nights at Freddy's did, or atleast its environmental themes.

I didn't say these games don't have stories. They have very simple stories, that provide you with a basic premise to give an obligatory, explanatory framework to the gameplay.  This is the case for most of the classics I mentioned; they're quite barren story-wise and that the player is to fill in the blanks themselves. 

This is why nobody who likes these games likes them for the story.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

True that not alot like the gens cames for the story but the nostigia 

[FriendBot]

They may have simple stories but what made them stand out to me is how its presented, Super Metroid doesn't have a lot of depth to it either but its presentation was well-praised, Sonic 3 does that well. And FNaF was praised for how it tells its story within the game and guess what games does that? Sonic 1 and CD, so yeah. The classic games are well-made games but these small touches make them great games as well.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Don't forget about Sonic 4. It has a very simple story but the game rocks for the gameplay in my opinion. 

[Fake Hedgehog]

They may have simple stories but what made them stand out to me is how its presented, Super Metroid doesn't have a lot of depth to it either but its presentation was well-praised, Sonic 3 does that well. And FNaF was praised for how it tells its story within the game and guess what games does that? Sonic 1 and CD, so yeah. The classic games are well-made games but these small touches make them great games as well.

 If you think the stories were good, I can't tell you that this is not your opinion.

What I state firmly and objectively is that the classics weren't at all impressive or engaging in terms of narrative when taken at face value, and those who claim otherwise are almost certainly making excuses and filling in blanks for what the games lacked because they enjoyed the ganeplay.

 

Don't forget about Sonic 4. It has a very simple story but the game rocks for the gameplay in my opinion. 

S4E2 was something sweet. Top 3 Sonic games of all time I would say.

 

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

 

 

S4E2 was something sweet. Top 3 Sonic games of all time I would say.

 

Ah!! Sonic 4 was my first 2D Sonic game and it was awesome! Simple story but fun gameplay.  I think all 2D Sonic games need to be like Sonic 4's episodes. Maybe a boost as a bonus. 

[FriendBot]

 If you think the stories were good, I can't tell you that this is not your opinion.

What I state firmly and objectively is that the classics weren't at all impressive or engaging in terms of narrative when taken at face value, and those who claim otherwise are almost certainly making excuses and filling in blanks for what the games lacked because they enjoyed the ganeplay.

It's not even my opinion? Then what is it?

Its presentation is what made the story, it's quite impressive for its time and it still holds up just like games like Super Metroid and FNaF! All those games all had a basic story but how it presented its story was what made it great! 

[azoo]

Okay, we've veered way off topic. Get back on it, kiddos. This topic is about Pontac/Graff's writing and observation of what they do in comparison to other games in the series. Not Sonic 4 Episode 2, or anything else like that. If you guys want to discuss that, you have statuses and other topics dedicated to them.

I will say one thing while we're here though,

 What I state firmly and objectively is that the classics weren't at all impressive or engaging in terms of narrative when taken at face value, and those who claim otherwise are almost certainly making excuses and filling in blanks for what the games lacked because they enjoyed the ganeplay.

Bullshit.

While story was left to the instruction manuals for the most part in Sonic 1 & 2 (which is still perfectly valid as a point I'd say), 3K and CD manage to carry a narrative through the gameplay itself; the former through cutscenes and events happening and rising to multiple climaxes as the game progressed, and the latter through your decisions made in the game, which shaped the outcome of the environments as well as the game's ending. 

Just because it doesn't have a script doesn't mean it's not engaging. What makes it matter is if you feel like you (or the main characters') decisions and actions throughout the game mean anything to the experience.. which they do, and both games make use of that, repeatedly.

Now, let's start turning this train back towards the tracks please.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Azoo

[Fake Hedgehog]

Okay sir. I think people will need a refresher though so allow me:

In the summer of 2009, 2 men known as Ken Pontac and Warren Graff, were summoned from the depths of the underworld by SEGA of America. 

On November 4, 2010 "Sonic: Free Riders" came into existence, cursed by the wicked ink of this devilish duo, and sealed with the breath of none other than Roger Craig Smith. 

It was on this day that the Sonic series was truly destroyed. The next day, snakes began to manifest in Yuji Naka's house physically.

Again, does anyone else think the writer and voice switch was only a temporary test for Boom? All the evidence points to it.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Fake Hedgehog

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I'm sorry for the off topic stuffs. They mention games with no story and I wanted to join in.

 

Ive already made my voice heard on this topic and said that I am a huge fan of Mr Pontaff's writing and I am very sad that they wont be writing more Sonic games. 

[FriendBot]

I'm sorry for the off topic stuffs. They mention games with no story and I wanted to join in.

 

Ive already made my voice heard on this topic and said that I am a huge fan of Mr Pontaff's writing and I am very sad that they wont be writing more Sonic games. 

Who said they aren't writing anymore? They're writing for Fire & Ice.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Who said they aren't writing anymore? They're writing for Fire & Ice.

They are not writing for modern Sonic anymore. I want them to write for modern Sonic. 

[FriendBot]

We don't even know jack squat about the next main series game, I wouldn't jump to conclusions if I were you. I mean if we had heard that, Donnie would've made an article about it already. XD

[Amomynous]

For me a distaste for the current writing actually started with Sonic Colours, Sonic Lost world and Shattered Crystal kinda just kept it going.

I can't remember Shattered Crystal for the life of me, it's that unremarkable, so lets move on.

Both Sonic Colours and Lost World don't follow up on events in a way I expect a story to:

Yacker is introduced, Yacker disappears ,Sonic and Tails are worried about Yacker, this seems to be an attempt at introducing some emotional investment but Yacker simply reappears, making it seem like a dropped plot point. There's a similar issue when Tails gets blasted with a mind control device. Eggman invents what is potentially a plot element and it kind of just comes to nothing. Let me just emphasise this; Eggman gained enough leverage to make Sonic uneasy and present him with a major problem and then it's gone. What's the point of that?

The jokes strike me as repetitive or too long,I find the translation joke amusing the first time, I might have found the "special delivery" joke entertaining if Sonic didn't take a minute to deliver it, never mind the fact I find the lots-and-lots-of-bragging take on Sonic out of character and I'm not going to find that funny. Sonic does stuff, he doesn't monologue his enemies to death. There's also the fact Tails is written almost as if he's Sonic's missing sanity and needs to "bring him down a peg."

Also I think it's fairly easy to assume Sonic learnt to not shout at people like their stupid when he travels the world as he so often does.

Sonic Lost World doesn't seem to quite add up either. At first it seems like Sonic's problem is his recklessness, he kicked a thing and he didn't know what it was, that's not a good idea.

But the story revolved around something else; the idea that Sonic doesn't listen to Tails, and I don't think this premise is particularly well established, the only time I'd say he actually didn't listen to Tails was well...when he kicked a thing (which honestly seems due to recklessness rather than a lack of respect for Tails). Otherwise it just seems like Tails again being presented as if he needs to supervise Sonic, when Sonic does something Tails doesn't agree with then Tails gets a free pass to dump salt on him.

Scriptwise; Who talks like that? Seriously, like I know the old writing team were notorious for long-time-no-see and all that jazz, but this is something I feel they largely managed to avoid since Sonic and The Secret Rings.

"I'll eat your black hearts!" Really? I honestly couldn't take that threat particularly seriously because of the oddity of it, I highly doubt Eggman intends to eat the Deadly six.

Some other utterences like "That was a mistake."  and "Since when is foiling your plans a mistake Egghead!" Just strike me as off. Wouldn't a hothead like Eggman just call Sonic an idiot? The latter also strikes me a bit awkward, like Sonic's intending to make a witty retort but it's too long-winded.

"Two words, diet and exercise!" Excuse me if I just find this insult completely and utterly out of the blue, but every insult to the other Zeti was a response to something they said or did. I'm not particularly inclined Sonic would just tell someone what to do with their body when it has fuck-all to do with anything.

As for why people actively hate Pontac & Graff, yeah it's more or less that people have a name to stick it to, though the writing amounts to much more than just their work and there is evidence to suggest Sonic Team are not doing a stellar job of direction; I believe Ken Pontac agreed that Sonic Team basically did fuck all (paraphrase) to fill them in on how to portray characters or what the lore was. I think it's fair to say direction is a problem.

Edited October 3, 2015 by Amomynous

[azoo]

Okay sir

It was on November 4, 2010 that the Sonic series was truly destroyed. The next day, snakes began to manifest in Yuji Naka's house physically.

Okay, we need to quit this. I mean, it's not really supporting any sort of discussion. And it wouldn't honestly be grating if you only did it once and were going somewhere with it, buuuut yeah, all it's doing is painting Pontac/Graff/whoever as the devil again whenever we've already been over how there's more fault to go around than just one or two people, so let's just stop doing this.

Actually, what did it even have to do with what I was saying before anyways? Just... what? I'll let it slide for now, but let's cut it out or I'll do something about it.

Again, does anyone else think the writer and voice switch was only a temporary test for Boom? All the evidence points to it.

I do think you might somewhat be going somewhere with this though.

Hear me out, everyone.

It was mentioned that in Boom's development, there was a TV show pitch that came first and was in planning not long after 2010-2011 or so, and that Boom came around afterward, near 2012. It was also mentioned that at some point Iizuka or whoever said they should take the show and the Boom initiative and blend them together. 

Note that in 2010 (the same year or so that the TV show was mentioned), we also got a voice cast change and stories that focused more on lighthearted comedy that didn't really go anywhere.. which is a lot like the Boom tv show is now. For that reason, we can probably assume that at some point the TV show might've also been based on the gameverse. Which would make sense, because don't Graff and Pontac have something to do with writing stuff for Boom? They're also the writers for the 3DS games, now.

It really makes you think. Considering that Iizuka has also said that there's going to be a distinct difference between the game universe and the Boom universe (at least I'm pretty sure he stated that somewhere), what if the series is going to go through another tone/style change, and the type of stories we've been getting in the recent games with those writers are being moved into Boom?

I'm not saying this is true, nor is there much else besides speculation to paint this theory out until we see the next Sonic game, but it sounds plausible. I wonder if it'd have to do with another VA cast change, too..

Edited October 3, 2015 by Azoo

[FriendBot]

I always did thought that the Pontaff games were sort of a "prototype" to what Boom is so I guess with Boom out, maybe, JUST MAYBE, we can go back to what the main series was originally about?

Dammit Azoo, why do you have to make something so intriguing from nothing?!