Sonic Runn..er wait... "SSMB YOU CREATED A TIME PARADOX!"

[Scar]

Lost World is running the Hedgehog Engine though, it uses the same lighting engine but just isn't as noticeable in most stages. Plus there are typically far more moving models on screen at once in SLW, where enemies and such aren't as common in Unleashed and Generations. Granted those games were pushed because of their speed and as a result the amount of backgrounds that had to load quickly, but there's no reason to believe the next Sonic game will need to do that either?

Whether or not Lost World is using the Hedgehog Engine isn't really the issue here. The issue is that it has much simpler lighting than Generations, which has much simpler lighting compared to Unleashed. Gens and Unleashed had the added problem of rendering a ton on-screen (probably more than in most stages in Lost World, which were largely big empty sky-boxes with the exception of Silent Jungle) and at a much faster rate (hence the loading issues in some stages).

 

I'm just not sure why the Wii U version of the 2015 game having 60fps automatically means that the other versions are shit? If they all get fair treatment there's no reason they can't all be 60fps, especially if SEGA are already more used to developing with Wii U by that point.

It doesn't, its just the gulf in power between the Wii U and the other two systems is great enough, for there to be considerable room for graphical upgrades. In other words, if the next game was 1080p @ 60fps on the Wii U, SEGA could add a ton more visual effects and graphical improvements on the PS4 and XB1, while maintaining that 1080p @ 60 FPS Performance.

[Jolt_TH]

Because that is what it is comparable too?

The Wii U may be more powerful than the ps360 but not by much.

[SuperLink]

It doesn't, its just the gulf in power between the Wii U and the other two systems is great enough, for there to be considerable room for graphical upgrades. In other words, if the next game was 1080p @ 60fps on the Wii U, SEGA could add a ton more visual effects and graphical improvements on the PS4 and XB1, while maintaining that 1080p @ 60 FPS Performance.

I'm not debating that, I'm debating Discoid's notion that the Wii U version shouldn't have 60fps.

 

There's no doubt that the PS4/One versions will look considerably better, but putting care into the Wii U version doesn't necessarily mean those two versions are lacking care in comparison

[Jolt_TH]

Infact why shouldn't all three versions be optimised to be the best they can be for each console?

[Sami]

You speak of it as if the Wii U is exactly the same, if not worse than the 360/PS3.

 

Fair enough, upon thinking about it I'm not sure how much CPU power a Sonic game would need to begin with. RAM would definitely be important, and the Hedgehog Engine's lighting scheme would use up the GPU's power.

 

Hm... well, if the Wii U's GPU is roughly 1.5 times more powerful than the Xbox's, I suppose Generations could work, sure. Unleashed I'd doubt, though.

 

 

I'm just not sure why the Wii U version of the 2015 game having 60fps automatically means that the other versions are shit? If they all get fair treatment there's no reason they can't all be 60fps, especially if SEGA are already more used to developing with Wii U by that point.

 

It's not necessarily that they're shit, per se, it's just that I don't want them to have to hold back more than necessary on account of being Wii U compatible.

 

Look at it like this - remember when Metal Gear Solid 4 came out? How it was one of the most visually stunning games of its time and did a ton of new things that simply weren't possible before? Compare that to the newer Ground Zeroes, which, while still good, isn't as "WOW" as the games before it were at their time. That's because the PS3 and 360 inherently limit the design scope of the game. The crazy new things they could be doing can't be rudimentary parts of the game's design because it has to be able to run on hardware less than half as powerful.

 

Limiting the game to 30fps on Wii U could allow them to do some more things on a rudimentary level, like more advanced lighting and game design, as it'll take almost half as much power to run at a stable framerate than a game pushing 60fps.

 

tl;dr - Cross-gen is lame, I want the eighth gen to be doing cool new things without being chained down. 30fps is less of a limiter than 60fps. It's an even bigger difference than Unleashed and Generations' visuals. 

 

 

Sorry if I'm coming across as harsh or dismissive towards Wii U owners. It's just... well, my opinion. I want to be wowed like I was with Unleashed. 

Infact why shouldn't all three versions be optimised to be the best they can be for each console?

 

They absolutely should. The Wii U is the lowest common denominator here and as such I want it to be pushed to its absolute limit so that the game can be as impressive as possible. That's why I'm hoping for 30fps.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

ImplYing that 30 fps is the best the Wii U could solidly pull off.

[SuperLink]

But.. there's no reason the Wii U version needs to chain down the others on a technical level. As a system, while the technical power of the others is far greater, there's not really much the Wii U isn't capable of in terms of pure gameplay.

 

It's not like the Wii / PS360 situation where Wii discs were comparatively tiny and couldn't have the huge game areas its competitors had, nothing a Sonic game would do gameplay-wise is beyond what the Wii U is already capable of. Literally all the difference there needs to be is for the PS4 and One versions to look far superior.

 

Also, I'm kind of doubting we'll get that kind of "wow" anymore anyway. End-gen PS3/360/Wii U games can look so good that PS4 and One games sometimes look like a natural progression more than a huge jump in visuals like the PS3 and 360 saw. If MGS5 doesn't have the same kind of wow factor MGS4 did, I kinda doubt anything will? Because I don't see visuals suddenly jumping from MGS5-quality to something so much better it hits you in the face with wow factor either, things are gonna keep being mostly gradual from here on if the first year of PS4/One is anything to go by.

 

Plus it's a Sonic game, it's gonna be cartoony. It's not going to push the gen to its limits, even if it were a PS4 exclusive it would most likely not look too far beyond anything we've seen before.

[azoo]

60fps is nice and wonderful on the eyes but even then I can't even give a single poop if it's 30 as long as the gameplay and visuals are incredible while the framerate stays 100% stable.

 

But even so, with the PS3 version of Unleashed able to run a staggering 60fps compared to Wii U's power over them, it shouldn't be a stretch to imagine a game with Unleashed-level visuals on Wii U running a smooth 60.

 

I don't think the graphical jump to this gen from the last was that large, anyways, and like SuperLink said, since Sonic is obviously cartoony I can't see it chugging too much from PS4/Xbone that the Wii U couldn't handle. Maybe with a few shinier polished areas and some splotches of extra detail, but nothing quite like making a shitty Wii port of a 360 game.

[Sami]

ImplYing that 30 fps is the best the Wii U could solidly pull off.

 

Um, no? But fps is inherently taxing on the graphics card, and as such sacrifices have to be made. I don't want those sacrifices to be made on Wii U, as regardless of what it does the PS4 and Xbox will be perfectly capable of doubling the frame rate.

 

 

But.. there's no reason the Wii U version needs to chain down the others on a technical level. As a system, while the technical power of the others is far greater, there's not really much the Wii U isn't capable of in terms of pure gameplay.

 

It's not like the Wii / PS360 situation where Wii discs were comparatively tiny and couldn't have the huge game areas its competitors had, nothing a Sonic game would do gameplay-wise is beyond what the Wii U is already capable of. Literally all the difference there needs to be is for the PS4 and One versions to look far superior.

 

Also, I'm kind of doubting we'll get that kind of "wow" anymore anyway. End-gen PS3/360/Wii U games can look so good that PS4 and One games sometimes look like a natural progression more than a huge jump in visuals like the PS3 and 360 saw. If MGS5 doesn't have the same kind of wow factor MGS4 did, I kinda doubt anything will? Because I don't see visuals suddenly jumping from MGS5-quality to something so much better it hits you in the face with wow factor either, things are gonna keep being mostly gradual from here on if the first year of PS4/One is anything to go by.

 

Plus it's a Sonic game, it's gonna be cartoony. It's not going to push the gen to its limits, even if it were a PS4 exclusive it would most likely not look too far beyond anything we've seen before.

 

The reason we're not seeing the "wow" is because we're still playing upgraded PS3/360 games. Wait for games to begin being natively developed and you'll see the difference and for developers to optimize better over time (just like with every previous generation), and we'll see it. 

 

And I disagree - the larger hard drive space on PS4 and Xbox One allows for games to be fully installed, for instance, allows for data to be accessed at a much faster rate than it would be using the disc drive alone. This isn't possible on Wii U. They both have four times the RAM, meaning levels and textures could be much more elaborate and detailed, which would have to be held back to be Wii U compatible. The CPUs in both are many times more capable than Wii U, meaning enemy AI, physics, etc. would all have to be held back in order to remain compatible.

 

Make no mistake, this gen is just as much of a jump as the last one. Look at Tomb Raider - comparing a very late last gen game to a near-launch current gen one, you get over double the resolution (meaning 1080p takes 2.5x more power to render), double the framerate (another 2x more power), completely redone lighting, vastly more advanced physics, and more. And yet, this is still just an upgraded PS3/360 game, at the very beginning of the generation. It's the tip of the iceberg. The seventh generation went on for so fucking long that we don't need bleeding edge machines to be exponentially better.

 

I don't expect Sonic Team to be breaking boundaries, no. But despite being "cartoony", Sonic Unleashed is an outright beautiful game, despite its age. It was very impressive at the time. I want that kind of ambition and fidelity with the new generation. I doubt Sonic Team will recode the lighting just to give the other two systems a nice boost, and that's a shame. If they do, super. But if not, the Wii U will be holding them back, and yeah, that's disappointing to me. Mind you, 30fps is still holding them back, but at least they won't have to sacrifice as much as they would for 60fps. 

 

 

60fps is nice and wonderful on the eyes but even then I can't even give a single poop if it's 30 as long as the gameplay and visuals are incredible while the framerate stays 100% stable.

 

But even so, with the PS3 version of Unleashed able to run a staggering 60fps compared to Wii U's power over them, it shouldn't be a stretch to imagine a game with Unleashed-level visuals on Wii U running a smooth 60.

 

I don't think the graphical jump to this gen from the last was that large, anyways, and like SuperLink said, since Sonic is obviously cartoony I can't see it chugging too much from PS4/Xbone that the Wii U couldn't handle. Maybe with a few shinier polished areas and some splotches of extra detail, but nothing quite like making a shitty Wii port of a 360 game.

 

I agree with the bolded. That said, I am satisfied that the PS4 and Xbox One are practically guaranteed to get 60fps. 

 

Unleashed on the PS3 had a 60fps cap, but it rarely actually hit it. It wasn't at all stable and the game generally hovered anywhere between 20-40. It may as well have just been capped at 30.

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

I still say that Wii U won't be at a notable disadvantage with the Sonic games even at 60 fps.

Until I see actual execution that suggests otherwise.

[Sami]

I still say that Wii U won't be at a notable disadvantage with the Sonic games even at 60 fps.

Until I see actual execution that suggests otherwise.

 

I'm confused what you mean by this. Could you elaborate, please?

[Jovahexeon Jax Joranvexeon]

I refer to the fact that it's been said by some that the Wii U wouldn't be able to handle an 8th gen standard Sonic game at 60 fps without being heavily nerfed. Such has yet to be proven with actual results though.

[Wraith]

Y'know, I don't really care if the Wii U version is less graphically impressive(and odds are it WILL be, no way around it.)  as long as all versions play the same and don't miss any content. Go crazy on the other systems if you want, just don't strip any content.

[SuperLink]

I disagree, because while we saw games like this in 2005,

 

RE4 being widely considered to be one of the best looking games of Gen6, just a year later we had this;

 

That's a pretty huge jump, and I haven't seen anything at all from PS4 or One yet that look considerably more amazing than The Last of Us or MGS5. We started seeing games like Oblivion for 7th gen consoles pretty quickly after the 360 launched, but where are the 8th gen games that are meant to "wow" me? Sure games like Killzone and Destiny are looking great, but there's no big jump, I can't see any games releasing any time soon giving us the "wow" factor when amazing-visual games like MGS5 and Last of Us are running flawlessly on old hardware. Maybe I'll be wrong, but I don't believe the "graphics jump" will come with nearly as much force as it has in past gens.

 

Games look better, of course, there's no doubt about that but they're less instantly-noticeable things like running smoother and more comfortably, physics, lighting, etc. Those things are difficult to capture in trailers and screenshots, whereas in previous gens the graphics jumps were easy to see in anything. That's what I mean, pretty much.

[Autosaver]

That's because the power gap is less impressive.

 

[SuperLink]

That's because the power gap is less impressive.

 

You explained in a line what I wrote 2 paragraphs about 8(

 

But yea my point is that, while there is a big jump in power, it's not nearly as noticeable to the average gamer as they have been in the past.

[Sami]

That's a pretty huge jump, and I haven't seen anything at all from PS4 or One yet that look considerably more amazing than The Last of Us or MGS5. We started seeing games like Oblivion for 7th gen consoles pretty quickly after the 360 launched, but where are the 8th gen games that are meant to "wow" me? Sure games like Killzone and Destiny are looking great, but there's no big jump, I can't see any games releasing any time soon giving us the "wow" factor when amazing-visual games like MGS5 and Last of Us are running flawlessly on old hardware. Maybe I'll be wrong, but I don't believe the "graphics jump" will come with nearly as much force as it has in past gens.

 

Games look better, of course, there's no doubt about that but they're less instantly-noticeable things like running smoother and more comfortably, physics, lighting, etc. Those things are difficult to capture in trailers and screenshots, whereas in previous gens the graphics jumps were easy to see in anything. That's what I mean, pretty much.

 

The problem is your comparisons aren't actually the same. Destiny, despite looking lovely, is still an upgraded PS3 game. Killzone, despite being leagues beyond what the PS3 is capable of, is still just a launch game. 

 

For comparison, have a look at this launch game -

 

 

Like Killzone, a marked improvement, but not anything groundbreaking. You just have to give it some time. I'm sure once Uncharted 4 and Halo 5 roll around, the difference will be very clear.

 

 

That's because the power gap is less impressive.

 

 

There's far, far more to visual fidelity than the number of polygons. 

 

 

This is not possible on PS3.

 

Y'know, I don't really care if the Wii U version is less graphically impressive(and odds are it WILL be, no way around it.)  as long as all versions play the same and don't miss any content. Go crazy on the other systems if you want, just don't strip any content.

 

I'm cool with this, yeah.

[Wraith]

Also, people, we have to keep in mind. Not only is this Sonic Team. This is Sonic Team after their last game bombed. Next generation development is expensive. They probably wont be pushing the systems as hard as Deep Down(At least I think that's Deep Down? Correct me if I'm wrong) up there.

[azoo]

I think the bigger point to make in this argument is that the next Sonic's not gonna have to require the same level of visual fidelity as Deep Down to look fantastic. The Wii U version may get a 30fps framerate instead of 60 or something like that, but I'm almost definitely sure it'd still look amazing, since Unleashed is still the most visually impressive Sonic game out there, and all three next-gen consoles can handle better than that.

[Jolt_TH]

In the end I don't really care about resolution or fps, in with wraith, as long as all the versions are the same I couldn't care less. I've had long enough missing games or getting the downgrades

[Sami]

I think the bigger point to make in this argument is that the next Sonic's not gonna have to require the same level of visual fidelity as Deep Down to look fantastic. The Wii U version may get a 30fps framerate instead of 60 or something like that, but I'm almost definitely sure it'd still look amazing, since Unleashed is still the most visually impressive Sonic game out there, and all three next-gen consoles can handle better than that.

Very true.

Honestly? I kind of hope they just ditch the Hedgehog Engine at this point. It's unbelievable they expected it to be licensed and sold for use by other developers when it runs horrendously, lol. The Wii U can at least handle Unleashed at a stable 30 (unlike PS3/360), so that's what I'm hoping for. Another downgrade on the level of Lost World would be really disappointing, IMO.

We're in a new generation now for Christ's sake, lol. That a game exclusive to one of the new systems is technically inferior to a multiplat from 2008 is kinda... sad. I think I'm being pretty damn reasonable expecting 1080p/60fps Unleashed on PS4. Anything less is downright pathetic. :V

[Autosaver]

 

That a game exclusive to one of the new systems is technically inferior to a multiplat from 2008 is kinda... sad.

 

Why are you comparing a 60fps/new art style game to a sub-30fps barely HD game?

 

Sorry, but I'd rather take the "inferior" game over the powerpoint animation.

[Wraith]

We're in a new generation now for Christ's sake, lol. That a game exclusive to one of the new systems is technically inferior to a multiplat from 2008 is kinda... sad. 

 

Optimization plays into technical superiority too. Just because a game tried to do more technically impressive things doesn't make the fact that it still can look pretty shit when it's running any less relevant. Lost World looks fine and takes advantage of it's artstyle to do a consistent 60fps for the whole ride. Unleashed being technically superior is pretty damn arguable.

[Hero of Legend]

I disagree with that notion. If the Wii U can run games with looks like 3D World and Mario Kart 8 at 60 fps, I see no reason to single it out for 60fps Sonic exclusion.

Exactly. A Sonic game with Mario Kart 8's graphics and framerate would look spectacular.

 

Also throw in Sochi's art style, it's by the same art director as the Adventure era. Another art director filled those shoes for all main games since Unleashed (Unleashed, Colors, Gens, Lost World).

 

Frankly I prefer the former, plus the use of color and whatnot actually looks better in my eyes, have a look:

 

[Sami]

Why are you comparing a 60fps/new art style game to a sub-30fps barely HD game?

Sorry, but I'd rather take the "inferior" game over the powerpoint animation.

Optimization plays into technical superiority too. Just because a game tried to do more technically impressive things doesn't make the fact that it still can look pretty shit when it's running any less relevant. Lost World looks fine and takes advantage of it's artstyle to do a consistent 60fps for the whole ride. Unleashed being technically superior is pretty damn arguable.

Lost World came out half a decade later, and was exclusively optimized for more powerful hardware.

It shouldn't be arguable, it should be very clearly better. There's really no excuse, and it'll only become more immediately evident how piss poor of a developer they are if they still haven't managed to clearly top a game they made in 2008.

When the competition is a horribly optimized 2008 multiplat, it shouldn't be arguable.