Super Smash Bros. for Wii U/3DS - Settle It In Smash!

[Chaos Warp]

"It's easier to update a character from Brawl than it is to create a character from scratch, and people who liked Toon Link would be disappointed if he was cut", maybe?

This isn't the ideal situation, maybe, but I hardly see reason to get angry about it.

You're not gonna please everyone, and clones are never beneficial to the game. I mean, Toon Link is one of my mains so I can't be that mad but still clones should not be in the game. 

[Diogenes]

and clones are never beneficial to the game.

I'd rather have Toon Link as a clone than not at all. That's a pretty clear benefit in my eyes.

[Chaos Warp]

I'd rather have Toon Link as a clone than not at all. That's a pretty clear benefit in my eyes.

But wouldn't you rather have Toon Link not be a clone at all, or have another character who has a completely original moveset and who's not Faster Better Link?

[Indigo Rush]

Right, no clones allowed.

 

Let's cut Luigi and Falco while we're at it.

 

Said almost no one ever.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Indigo Rush

[Chaos Warp]

Right, no clones allowed.

 

Let's cut Luigi while we're at it.

Luigi is not a clone. Almost all his moves are different from Mario, and the ones that are function quite differently. 

 

I'd be fine with Toon Link having that level of difference between him and normal link, actually. 

 

EDIT: And neither is Falco. Falco has quite a few different moves from Fox, and while it may not be as drastic as Luigi, the point still stands. 

Edited September 27, 2013 by Chaos Warp

[Indigo Rush]

So why can't Toon Link?

Edited September 27, 2013 by Indigo Rush

[Chaos Warp]

So why can't Toon Link?

I said I'd be fine with Toon Link being the Luigi to Link's Mario.

From the screens it doesn't look like that'll be the case though. 

[Solkia]

I have to say, I'd rather the reveal veterans over newcomers.

 

Revealing newcomers takes the fun out it for me. When Melee was out and cheat lists mentioned " Mr. Game & Watch" I had no fucking idea who he was, so I was really motivated to unlock him before his profile was put on Melee's website.

[JezMM]

Guys

 

How about we have one topic about a character-centric game

 

Where we don't assume

 

That every character

 

Has somehow stolen development time from other potential characters

 

Because the whole point of clone characters

 

Is they are quick to make

 

And allow iconic and beloved characters to get representation

 

When if they weren't there we'd probably only get 1 or 2 characters if any at all for the time put into about 5 clone characters.

 

We've been through this in Sonic Transformed's lead up already c'mon.

Edited September 27, 2013 by JezMM

[Indigo Rush]

Whenever I wanted to play as Link, I was never burdened with not knowing which iteration to chose - I always picked Toon Link. He handles quite differently and his moves, while they look and function similarly, have different behaviors to them. Adult Link was slower but had some more powerful moves. There was a strategy to it.

 

I don't see how Toon Link is any less different from Adult Link than Luigi is from Mario. 

 

Y'know, except for a sissy slap and a farting dash.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Indigo Rush

[Chaos Warp]

Guys

 

How about we have one topic about a character-centric game

 

Where we don't assume

 

That every character

 

Has somehow stolen development time from other potential characters

 

Because the whole point of clone characters

 

Is they are quick to make

 

And allow iconic and beloved characters to get representation

 

When if they weren't there we'd probably only get 1 or 2 characters if any at all for the time put into about 5 clone characters.

And honestly? I'd rather have less characters that are really well made then more characters that are clones. It's not just about representation, although that's a part of it. It's also about what the character brings to the game as a fighter rather then just franchise representation. 

Whenever I wanted to play as Link, I was never burdened with not knowing which iteration to chose - I always picked Toon Link. He handles quite differently and his moves, while they look and function similarly, have different behaviors to them. Adult Link was slower but had some more powerful moves. There was a strategy to it.

 

I don't see how Toon Link is any less different from Adult Link than Luigi is from Mario. 

 

Y'know, except for a sissy slap and a farting dash.

But with Luigi, the moves not only function very differently, they look different too. And also Luigi is slippery. 

 

Most of Toon Link's normal moves are just almost exactly like Adult Link's in terms of animation. I will agree that TL is infinitely better then regular Link though. 

Edited September 27, 2013 by Chaos Warp

[Indigo Rush]

So the only thing you really want is for Toon Link to have different traction and different animations? If not, let him burn?

 

'kay. 

[Chaos Warp]

So the only thing you really want is for Toon Link to have different traction and different animations? If not, let him burn?

 

'kay. 

No, I want him to be like Luigi to Link's Mario.

 

Which basically means almost all his moves are different but he shares some attributes with Link. His faster speed and agility already serves as his unique handing trait. 

Edited September 27, 2013 by Chaos Warp

[Diogenes]

But wouldn't you rather have Toon Link not be a clone at all, or have another character who has a completely original moveset and who's not Faster Better Link?

I said it's not the ideal situation, didn't I? If I could wiggle my fingers, shout abracadabra, and give Toon Link a whole new moveset, I probably would. But I can't, so I'll take this. And I don't think cutting a clone or an existing character maps one-to-one with adding an entirely new one.

In the case of clones, I think the most likely alternative to having them is simply losing a character from the roster. I think it's more likely that they'd be cut entirely than given a full reworking or replaced with a whole new character. If having a couple clones lets them squeeze in a few more characters and a few more ways to play (even if not entirely unique ways) that we wouldn't get otherwise, I'd rather have them than not.

Luigi is not a clone. 

He was. Would Smash 64 have been a better game for not having him?

[Chaos Warp]

Replies in bold

I said it's not the ideal situation, didn't I? If I could wiggle my fingers, shout abracadabra, and give Toon Link a whole new moveset, I probably would. But I can't, so I'll take this. And I don't think cutting a clone or an existing character maps one-to-one with adding an entirely new one.

In the case of clones, I think the most likely alternative to having them is simply losing a character from the roster. I think it's more likely that they'd be cut entirely than given a full reworking or replaced with a whole new character. If having a couple clones lets them squeeze in a few more characters and a few more ways to play (even if not entirely unique ways) that we wouldn't get otherwise, I'd rather have them than not.

Well personally I'd rather have them cut those few clones and give me one completely unique way to play instead. Cutting 2 or 3 clones must allow for at least one original character right?

 

He was. Would Smash 64 have been a better game for not having him?

Well Smash 64 is a different situation. The character roster was incredibly small so having one or 2 clones was okay. But when you get to Melee and Brawl-sized rosters, where there's more then enough characters to carry a fighting game, I don't think losing 2 or 3 clones would hurt. 

[Solkia]

He was. Would Smash 64 have been a better game for not having him?

 

Clone or not, removing Luigi would be a sin.

[Indigo Rush]

This is literally the dumbest

 

Okay, if a character is a clone, that implies that not a lot of effort went into making them, yah?

 

Then if they didn't make 2-3 clone characters, how many new exciting characters would make it in? 2? 3?

 

Probably none. They have a budget, and if they want to include Toony Toony Toon Link, Emperor Weegee and Falco "hand off my bread" Lombardi, and only change one or two values to their moveset, then darn it I'll take it, because in place of 3 clone characters (almost clone characters if you really want to drag this nonsense on) we'd get nothing.

 

I'm happy to see Toon Link, and I don't care if he plays like Adult Link. He's different enough for me.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Indigo Rush

[Chaos Warp]

This is literally the dumbest

 

Okay, if a character is a clone, that implies that not a lot of effort went into making them, yah?

 

Then if they didn't make 2-3 clone character, how many new exciting characters would make it in? 2? 3?

 

Probably none. They have a budget, and if they want to include Toony Toony Toon Link, Emperor Weegee and Falco "hand off my bread" Lombardi, and only change one or two values to their moveset, then darn it I'll take it, because in place of 3 clone characters (almost clone characters if you really want to drag this nonsense on) we'd get nothing.

 

I'm happy to see Toon Link, and I don't care if he plays like Adult Link. He's different enough for me.

Only one character in this list is actually a clone though.

 

And honestly I'd rather have no TL at all then have him be such a clone, like I said the least they can do is give him new moves like Luigi and Falco, then I'd be fine with him.

 

I guess we just agree to disagree at this point. 

[Diogenes]

Well personally I'd rather have them cut those few clones and give me one completely unique way to play instead. Cutting 2 or 3 clones must allow for at least one original character right?

If that's your opinion you're welcome to it, but you'll have a hard time convincing me that it's universally better to trade 3 characters for 1.

Well Smash 64 is a different situation. The character roster was incredibly small so having one or 2 clones was okay. But when you get to Melee and Brawl-sized rosters, where there's more then enough characters to carry a fighting game, I don't think losing 2 or 3 clones would hurt.

That seems a little backwards to me. With less characters total, a clone is a bigger percentage of the cast. Smash 64 was 1/12 clone, and Brawl...how many characters in Brawl were clones, by your criteria? Just Toon Link, Ganondorf, and Lucas? So 3/39 (counting swappable characters like Zelda/Sheik separately), which is proportionally less than 64 had...

[Indigo Rush]

Your definition for clone is weird, though. See, Falco isn't a clone?

I implore you to Landmaster your way out of that argument. His moves handle ever so slightly differently - he's really no different from Toon Link. I can understand how Luigi isn't a clone, but I seem to recall people actually getting worried that he'd control too differently from Mario at one point, whatwith being "green mario" and all. But Toon Link can't be tiny Link because... reasons.

 

I still don't agree with you. The idea that a character should be cut because they're too similar is ridiculous. If there were, like, 3 or 4 Link clones, we'd have something worth cutting. But here, you're really blowing Toon Link's saminess out of proportion.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Indigo Rush

[Blacklightning]

For what it's worth, I did at least hope Toon would have a usable Deku Leaf and/or Wind Waker, if not a tool or two from the 3DS ALttP thing, to help differentiate him. As long as they're basically porting movesets wholesale anyway it seems like it would be fairly trivial to add something like that.

[Solkia]

I kind of want Toon Link to use that pot thing from Minish Cap

[Chooch]

Luigi's, for all intents and purposes, is already insanely different from Mario in Smash Bros. That doesn't mean that don't I wish there was more done to wholly differentiate him in this game now that there's even more to work with and implement into his move list.

 

Looking at the roster to Brawl, I'd honestly consider removing Melee veteran Falco before Brawl newcomer Wolf. Outside of the laughable Final Smash mechanic, there was far more done to differentiate Wolf from base character Fox than was done to Falco to make them less comparable. I also feel like the series needs more antagonists in general. (Keeping both is fine, but I'm just making a general point here)

 

I don't see why people are having such a fit at someone wanting characters to have more differentiation. I guess this is what happens when you have priorities set more so on fan service than gameplay.

Edited September 27, 2013 by Chooch

[Diogenes]

I don't see why people are having such a fit at someone wanting characters to have more differentiation.

We ain't the ones throwing a fit, dude. And I don't think anyone's been against the characters having more differentiation, just that they'd rather not throw a character out entirely if they aren't revised.

[Kuzu]

I wouldn't mind clones as much if there was more done to differentiate them; Like there's no reason for why Falco still has Fox's moveset, when Wolf had more done to deviate him from Fox.  Luigi is getting more differentiated from Mario with each installment. At this point clones are superfluous.