Official Sonic 2006 topic

[DBZHedgy]

 I think its awesome to like the game but it isnt flawless

Same Here.

It seems as though people think I'm saying the game is perfect

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Same Here.

It seems as though people think I'm saying the game is perfect

You do seem to defend alot of its flaws. I am not for people giving their opinions like its fact and anyone who disagree is wrong but still. People do get angry when they see someome defend something they dont like. It happe with me and Sonic 4. I think Tails is awesome there and my opinion is treate like its wrong.

[DBZHedgy]

Re: Sonic Riders and Silver boss fight. It doesn't matter if you loose in a cutscene, you NEED to win, it wouldn't make any sense in the cutscene afterwards of you had lost, sonic going from last on gameplay to first in the cutscene is reasonable or else you might aswell sit there and do nothing. Same thing with silver , in the cutscene following sonic actually WINS and only gets caught by silver due to being distracted by Elise. Wing kidnapped again, so 1) you are MEANT to win and 2) silver doesn't look powerful he uses an opening created by another person

People are comparing the running speed of the characters, that's it, not talking about anything like jumping or sliding, in a 100m dash omega and Blaze would beat sonic in 06.

It's like me saying I could beat my friend running but he's faster because although he has to spend time unlocking his car that makes him look slow, in the end he will speed past me.

This statement right here shows to don't do for homework, the later games use the Havock engine aswell because that is the PHYSICS engine, the hedgehog engine developed for unleashed was purely for the lighting, it's a lighting engine, unleashed and gens would play exactly the same without it.

Yea, that was what I was trying to explain.

However with Silver's power i'd disagree. Later in the game when Sonic confronts Silver he is caught by silver with absolutely no distractions. This shows as well as in the first fight that Silver is stronger than Sonic.

 

Yes, I've already enunciated my point to further reflect this. I'm still not quite sure about Blaze though, she seems to be on par with Sonic and Shadow. Sonic is clearly platform oriented if he isn't that fast, whereas Omega just rushes enemies and blows crap up.

Blaze is about the same as Sonic, more platform oriented, so she doesn't run as fast as Omega either.

 

Seriously? Wow, I was clearly in fault then. That explains why Sonic Unleashed Wii was so low poly...

Taking that evidence into account, that would then mean that every game after 06 really is a set goal to improve the gameplay styles and mechanics of Sonic and completely ignoring other character.

[Komodin]

Same Here.

It seems as though people think I'm saying the game is perfect

 

Let's not put words in people's mouths. The problem isn't that you like the game -- it's that your arguments are, frankly, obnoxious, overly apologetic and too blame-shifting for their own good. Just because the numerous flaws this game has are present, to varying degrees, in other games, doesn't justify their presence in this game.

[DBZHedgy]

You do seem to defend alot of its flaws. I am not for people giving their opinions like its fact and anyone who disagree is wrong but still. People do get angry when they see someome defend something they dont like. It happe with me and Sonic 4. I think Tails is awesome there and my opinion is treate like its wrong.

Yea, I defend some, but not all, some things are just downright stupid. Silver's Ball Puzzle was really irritating and it is impossible to get it on your first try. Ironically people use a glitch to get past it. Something that people gripe about being a bad thing. 

I found Tails in Sonic 4 Ep 2 to be pretty awesome too. I didn't know that people hated it...

[Komodin]

Silver's Ball Puzzle was really irritating and it is impossible to get it on your first try. Ironically people use a glitch to get past it. Something that people gripe about being a bad thing. 

 

That's because it is a bad thing. Having to further muck up the game in order to get past a poorly programmed puzzle is just terrible design.

[DBZHedgy]

Let's not put words in people's mouths. The problem isn't that you like the game -- it's that your arguments are, frankly, obnoxious, overly apologetic and too blame-shifting for their own good. Just because the numerous flaws this game has are present, to varying degrees, in other games, doesn't justify their presence in this game.

I said it seems as though people think that I think the game is perfect. People have brought up things that I've already stated hating, as well as making it seem as though I was trying to defend said problem. 

 

Overly Apologetic? How many times have I agreed with a statement given by the forum? 2-3 times. Is that really alot? Especially considering that they were minor issues and I've been discussing for like 20 pages now...

 

What I'm trying to point out with this is that in other games their "minor annoyances" yet in this game there this huge blown up problem that everyone talk about when discussing it. It's Nit Picky, simple as that. And to top it off, if anyone is capable of enduring or dealing with them in other games then it shouldn't be as big of a problem as it is in this game.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

Yea, I defend some, but not all, some things are just downright stupid. Silver's Ball Puzzle was really irritating and it is impossible to get it on your first try. Ironically people use a glitch to get past it. Something that people gripe about being a bad thing. 

I found Tails in Sonic 4 Ep 2 to be pretty awesome too. I didn't know that people hated it...

that puzzle... 9 tries later i got it hahah i hate that puzzle.

 

it had a glitch???

[Gabz Girl]

Oh wow is this discussion STILL going?!

DBZHedgy, you are clearly grasping for straws now and trying to prove people wrong time and time again. You can love Sonic 06 as much as you bloody want, but you have to remember that you are in a minority and that most Sonic fans including myself really hate this game. It's our opinion that Sonic 06 sucks, it's your opinion that Sonic 06 is great but don't go and shove some pretty bad examples in our faces to why the game is that great. Not to mention randomly comparing it to other games which play nothing like Sonic 06.

I think you need to just stay away from the topic, or deal with the fact that something you like won't always be liked by others. Hell I think Sonic Colours is a fun game but there are members here (including yourself!) who think it's mediocre. I don't go around the forums trying to defend the game and telling people who don't like it "NO! NO! YOURE WRONG!" because I understand it's their opinion and I accept it.

[DBZHedgy]

That's because it is a bad thing. Having to further muck up the game in order to get past a poorly programmed puzzle is just terrible design.

My point exactly. Why break a game that's already broken? Why stoop to the level of the game? Why fight fire with fire? What point would that prove to yourself or others?

 

Having to abuse a glitch to make something simpler adds to the fun doesn't it? Just like the numerous in several other games, be it good or bad. If there's a shortcut then people tend to use it, whether or not the game was programmed for it. 

that puzzle... 9 tries later i got it hahah i hate that puzzle.

 

it had a glitch???

Yea, a glitch that lets you skip it. 

 

I can't recall how many tries it took me to get it on my first try...

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

I agree. I love Sonic 2006 but I dont defend it like that. Both Sonic 2006 fans and haters can both be annoying. Fans or defending this game and haters to getting upset for someone liking this game and saying their opinion is fact/

 

lets just let fans love the game and haters hate the game.

[Jolt_TH]

Yea, that was what I was trying to explain.

However with Silver's power i'd disagree. Later in the game when Sonic confronts Silver he is caught by silver with absolutely no distractions. This shows as well as in the first fight that Silver is stronger than Sonic.

Yes, I've already enunciated my point to further reflect this. I'm still not quite sure about Blaze though, she seems to be on par with Sonic and Shadow. Sonic is clearly platform oriented if he isn't that fast, whereas Omega just rushes enemies and blows crap up.

Blaze is about the same as Sonic, more platform oriented, so she doesn't run as fast as Omega either.

Seriously? Wow, I was clearly in fault then. That explains why Sonic Unleashed Wii was so low poly...

Taking that evidence into account, that would then mean that every game after 06 really is a set goal to improve the gameplay styles and mechanics of Sonic and completely ignoring other character.

That is irrelevant, that's a different fight later in the gane, doesn't change the fact that at the first confrontation he lost.

Well officially Blaze is slightly slower with a higher jump, still doesn't detract that Sonic (the titular character) isn't even the fastest in the game, even though that is his thing.

How does that explain that? Unwiished was done by a different dev team aided by DIMPS I do believe and had a different or watered down hedgehog engine, that's about my limits of knowledge on the subject though. Unwiished is lower poly as the Wii/PS2 are less powerful systems.

Yeah pretty much, it was practically stated by Izukia that they wanted to "perfect sonic's gameplay" before adding other characters

[DBZHedgy]

Oh wow is this discussion STILL going?!

DBZHedgy, you are clearly grasping for straws now and trying to prove people wrong time and time again. You can love Sonic 06 as much as you bloody want, but you have to remember that you are in a minority and that most Sonic fans including myself really hate this game. It's our opinion that Sonic 06 sucks, it's your opinion that Sonic 06 is great but don't go and shove some pretty bad examples in our faces to why the game is that great. Not to mention randomly comparing it to other games which play nothing like Sonic 06.

I think you need to just stay away from the topic, or deal with the fact that something you like won't always be liked by others. Hell I think Sonic Colours is a fun game but there are members here (including yourself!) who think it's mediocre. I don't go around the forums trying to defend the game and telling people who don't like it "NO! NO! YOURE WRONG!" because I understand it's their opinion and I accept it.

Yes, it is apparently.

 

How? We were discussing stuff, and I thought it was a good idea to bring up the silver boss fight's glitch counter. Then people started discussing it, so i started discussing it as well. I don't care if anyone hates it or loves it, the topic is discussion and as such we discuss things. I'm simply giving reasons as to why I've enjoyed these parts of the game. The exact opposite occurs with the many people who don't like the game, and I'm ok with that. I like hearing both sides of an argument to better my perspective on the subject. 

 

It wasn't random...

The same situation occurs in both games whether they play the same or not. It was a viable subject and as a result I brought it up.

 

For the record, I've never directly stated whether someone was directly incorrect. I've provided information that contradicts their statements, but i never sat there like a baby and said things such as "I'm not Listening, or Your wrong because I'm right" I've said quite a few times that it all boils down to opinion. And when I posted the Silver Boss fight glitch counter, people asked questions and posted responses to better understand my opinion. I don't recall ever saying "Look, I just like it ok" It isn't a guilty pleasure. I've enjoyed it for several reasons and that's why I'm providing them.

 

I feel it's a bit different for 06 though. People have literally stated several times that whoever likes the game are "Delusional, Mentally Ill, or just plain Stupid", it's nonsense. You don't hear that for anyone who hates colors do you? I'd be a bit more vocal about my opinion if the game was praised for everything, but it isn't. I'm keeping my statements about it on hold until the time someone wishes to discuss it comes up. 

 

I've accepted that people hate the game as well. Have I ever said (outside of my original statement) That anyone who doesn't like it is stupid or being an ignoramus of some kind?

That is irrelevant, that's a different fight later in the gane, doesn't change the fact that at the first confrontation he lost.

Well officially Blaze is slightly slower with a higher jump, still doesn't detract that Sonic (the titular character) isn't even the fastest in the game, even though that is his thing.

How does that explain that? Unwiished was done by a different dev team aided by DIMPS I do believe and had a different or watered down hedgehog engine, that's about my limits of knowledge on the subject though. Unwiished is lower poly as the Wii/PS2 are less powerful systems.

Yeah pretty much, it was practically stated by Izukia that they wanted to "perfect sonic's gameplay" before adding other characters

Not neccesarily... It doesn't change the first confrontation, this is true, but it goes further into detail about how Sonic lost. It's just another piece to add to the picture. In the first one it seemed like Sonic lost because of distraction, but it was reveiled that Sonic is clearly inferior in the later battle.

 

Well, yea. In Standard Speeds, anyway. I was originally referring to Silver and Sonic though. They are the only two to go against each other besides Shadow. Silver has an overpowered advantage, and Sonic has a speed advantage. That Cheapness wasn't fair, sure, but it helped the player realize not to screw with silver.

 

It was a general question that I had when comparing the two games. Since the hedgehog Engine is too powerful for the PS2 and WII they had to use a different graphics engine to substitute for it. It isn't a big deal, just something I had been pondering.  

 

Maybe that was their original intention at first... but it's been like 4-6 years since multiple chars were playable. Sonic's Gameplay couldn't be any more perfected than in Sonic Generations, many other fans would agree.

[Rey Skywalker-Ren]

 

I found Tails in Sonic 4 Ep 2 to be pretty awesome too. I didn't know that people hated it...

there is a sonic 4 thread if you want to talk and defend tails in the game

[Komodin]

What I'm trying to point out with this is that in other games their "minor annoyances" yet in this game there this huge blown up problem that everyone talk about when discussing it. It's Nit Picky, simple as that. And to top it off, if anyone is capable of enduring or dealing with them in other games then it shouldn't be as big of a problem as it is in this game.

 

The problem I'm seeing here is that your arguments seem to be missing the forest for the trees. They focus so pointlessly close on the "minor annoyances" and trying to call out those who "don't mind them as much in other games" as being hypocrites for whatever reason, that they're not addressed these possibilities:

 

1) That people do find those "minor annoyances" to be legitimate issues, but since they're not the focus of the argument, they choose to omit their thoughts on them in those other instances.

 

2) How those "minor annoyances" add up as the whole program and how those annoyances make an already bad game even worse as compared to those games.

 

My point exactly. Why break a game that's already broken? Why stoop to the level of the game? Why fight fire with fire? What point would that prove to yourself or others?

 

Having to abuse a glitch to make something simpler adds to the fun doesn't it? Just like the numerous in several other games, be it good or bad. If there's a shortcut then people tend to use it, whether or not the game was programmed for it. 

 

Again, read what I said. Having to utilize a flaw in the game's programming in order to get past a poorly programmed puzzle is just not good design.

[The Tenth Doctor]

Yikes it's gotten heated in here. I'll just leave something if you have 20 minutes and need a laugh.

 

 

Made this last year. May not be good art but hey, it gets a few laughs in. It's kinda rare for someone who likes 06 to make a parody of it. By the way, if it says you can't watch it in your country, let me know where your from. Damn copyright laws...

 

Now on topic, I've seen people claim a lot of bad things about us 06 fans. How do you go about saving yourself? 

1. Don't try to force others to like 06. The majority won't like it, so why force them?

2. Accept that your opinion is valid. People may say your nuts but hey, if you get a kick out of it, good for you. It's only if you do point 1 that people may go to this stage.

3. Say rational points. I've seen so many 06 fans who do not think when posting. It's just "06 IS DA BEST, YOU ARE ALL DUMB!" without any thought or reason for people to understand. If you accept that people hate it, put points up on why you like it, many people will accept it. They may not agree but will accept. 

[Jolt_TH]

It was a general question that I had when comparing the two games. Since the hedgehog Engine is too powerful for the PS2 and WII they had to use a different graphics engine to substitute for it. It isn't a big deal, just something I had been pondering.

Maybe that was their original intention at first... but it's been like 4-6 years since multiple chars were playable. Sonic's Gameplay couldn't be any more perfected than in Sonic Generations, many other fans would agree.

That's true, Izukia however was talking about perfecting the gameplay at the last Sonic Boom convention. So according to ST the boost gameplay wasn't it

[SlickEvan]

Okay since this is relevant that short was quite funny. I guess I shouldn't have judged this book by the cover it had some pretty funny parts. And lightened my mood! Great job.

[StaticMania]

Do you recall the game Maverick Hunter X? In that game, in your first confrontation, you can beat AND still lose. Once he is defeated for the first time he acts as if he has lost and cheap shots ya, JUST LIKE SILVER.

That doesn't really count, since the way that plays out doesn't capture the fact that you the player are helpless against him and just makes him a normal boss with the same old annoying game-play&Cutscene scenario where you beat the boss and the character still loses anyway. Silver Cheap Shots Sonic, not the player because we have no control over what happens in the cutscenes.

[Blacklightning]

The Elise and Sonic relationship point was a question. Not a statement. Didn't you see the question mark?

That doesn't change the fact that it was an intentional fallacy designed exclusively to draw attention to the way you use those same fallacies. In fact, the entire post was. That this has managed to fly over your head twice even after I've pointed it out in plain text both times is astonishing.

 

Ok, the False Balance topic is a bit of an understatement. Due to the general Idea that Many of the issues that pop up in this game come off as these huge problems, while in other games their just minor annoyances, it's blown out of proportion.

Because unlike most if not all of the examples you've provided, it is a singular example of flawed game design rather than a godawful compilation of mistakes, oversights and crap programming crammed into a single disc. And even in the case of singular examples nobody's giving other games a free pass just because '06 does it too, and vice versa - shit design is shit design, regardless of precedent.

 

The Apples and Oranges Analogy was a misconception on your part. Why would you compare a game to a fruit? As the Wiki page clearly said, its comparing two things that cannot be compared due to their uncommon relations. However, in the case of Apples and Oranges, they still do have similarities. They are both fruit, they are both healthy, they are both circular. Wouldn't that mean that the 2 compared are applicable to being compared after all?

If you actually read the link in question at all, you would realize that these similarities are superficial, and that one cannot be applied as a practical alternative to the other's purposes. Saying apples should be compared to oranges on the grounds that they're both fruits is like saying Sonic '06 should be compared to Pokemon Stadium on the grounds that they're both videogames.

 

And with all due respect if we're literally arguing apples and oranges now I don't think you're worth the time, frankly.

 

How does "moving goal posts apply"?

 

How did I misrepresent my argument?

Not yours. Ours. Misrepresenting your own argument is more akin to moving goalposts, but we've already covered that.

 

LIE? When?

So, solely because of the rare chance that you can get stuck

To use the biggest elephant in the room as an example.

[DBZHedgy]

The problem I'm seeing here is that your arguments seem to be missing the forest for the trees. They focus so pointlessly close on the "minor annoyances" and trying to call out those who "don't mind them as much in other games" as being hypocrites for whatever reason, that they're not addressed these possibilities:

 

1) That people do find those "minor annoyances" to be legitimate issues, but since they're not the focus of the argument, they choose to omit their thoughts on them in those other instances.

 

2) How those "minor annoyances" add up as the whole program and how those annoyances make an already bad game even worse as compared to those games.

 

 

Again, read what I said. Having to utilize a flaw in the game's programming in order to get past a poorly programmed puzzle is just not good design.

Don't you mean trees for the forest? 

Either way, your not seeing my perception too well...

The only reason I ensue discussing these Minor Annoyances, is because someone who hates the game brings it up. As such, I follow suit to discuss it with my fellow forum...ers

 

Response to 1): I find that hard to believe since people have followed up to differentiate the point I've made about the two games. Which in turn means that they are generally not percieved as legitamate issues. The only person I recall doing so was Akito, and Indigo Rush just stated that he hated the game, yet he still sought out to differentiate the two situations even though they are similar in fashion.

 

If these "Minor Annoyances" added up as a whole people would despise Sonic Adventure for being just as glitchy, and although it isn't broken there are very many times in a random playthrough where the game goes against you. Same with SA2. But it isn't. It's still adored to this day, even with it's PS3 and XBOX360 releases with glitches and or bugs intact.

 

In that case, many games have "not good design" such as this seeing as how they are tedious and time consuming. But hey, people put up with it in different games, and even glitched their way through it as well. Like Many of the secret shines in Super Mario Sunshine. People glitched their way through tedious parts of that too...

And they still love it! YAY!

 

 

That doesn't really count, since the way that plays out doesn't capture the fact that you the player are helpless against him and just makes him a normal boss with the same old annoying game-play&Cutscene scenario where you beat the boss and the character still loses anyway. Silver Cheap Shots Sonic, not the player because we have no control over what happens in the cutscenes.

Just like Desert Ruins in Sonic Riders

 

 

That doesn't change the fact that it was an intentional fallacy designed exclusively to draw attention to the way you use those same fallacies. In fact, the entire post was. That this has managed to fly over your head twice even after I've pointed it out in plain text both times is astonishing.

 

Because unlike most if not all of the examples you've provided, it is a singular example of flawed game design rather than a godawful compilation of mistakes, oversights and crap programming crammed into a single disc. And even in the case of singular examples nobody's giving other games a free pass just because '06 does it too, and vice versa - shit design is shit design, regardless of precedent.

 

If you actually read the link in question at all, you would realize that these similarities are superficial, and that one cannot be applied as a practical alternative to the other's purposes. Saying apples should be compared to oranges on the grounds that they're both fruits is like saying Sonic '06 should be compared to Pokemon Stadium on the grounds that they're both videogames.

 

And with all due respect if we're literally arguing apples and oranges now I don't think you're worth the time, frankly.

 

 

Not yours. Ours. Misrepresenting your own argument is more akin to moving goalposts, but we've already covered that.

 

To use the biggest elephant in the room as an example.

I don't understand. How exactly could that be a fallacy if Elise kisses Sonic in the Final story? How could it be a fallacy if she learns from him? How could it be a fallacy if she CRIES because she won't be able to see him anymore?

 

There are SEVERAL flawed design choices and bad programming in Sonic Adventure. A game that I've mentioned VERY OFTEN. People still love that though. If it was "shit" design, than why do people praise the uniqueness of such stages in Adventure? If horribly programmed stages in Adventure can fly, than So can 06. And I'm quite sure that Sonic Adventure is regarded  by many as better than "good".

 

How could I have not seen it if I cited the page? I used the exact words that the page had given. Suddenly that doesn't count as reading now huh?

 

Whether or not it's superficial, both sources are both viable since they both have factors that are related to one another. If that's the case, any comparison at all would be comparing apples and oranges, even when comparing two apples. 

And Honestly, I don't think you're worth the time either. I thought this was a Sonic 06 topic, not an English Literature and Comprehension class. Always with these Wiki pages... They could easily be changed by a troll, and you wouldn't even be the wiser.

 

I don't recall that at all. Especially yours, all you really do is rage or spit out Wiki pages. Nothing more. :/

 

So, what your saying is that you ran into this glitch immediately as soon as you played the game for the first time right? Because if you didn't than that would mean that it is indeed RARE, and doesn't happen likely. In the event of the "stuck forever glitch" You either Die relatively fast, or you get the opportunity to escape. That isn't Lieing. And if that's all you have to showcase for it, than I am greatly disappointed.

[Vertekins]

...Anyone else sick and tired of strawmanning '06 defenders/apologists who stoop to scapegoating the issues with superior and/or more technically competent games in the series order to take attention off just how broken their favored piece of shit is?

 

The irony is that in doing so they're only proving how fundamentally broken their defense of the game in this manner is since it still doesn't serve to excuse those issues.

[Chaos Incarnate]

...Anyone else sick and tired of strawmanning '06 defenders/apologists who stoop to scapegoating the issues with superior and/or more technically competent games in the series order to take attention off just how broken their favored piece of shit is?

 

The irony is that in doing so they're only proving how fundamentally broken their defense of the game in this manner is.

This.

 

It's pretty low to stoop to the level of comparing other games to 06 to justify its flaws. If Sonic 06's quality were subjective (which it honestly isn't), bringing up other games to defend it won't change anything. What if I didn't like any of the games 06 were being compared to and still thought it was a piece of shit on its own anyway? See, doesn't change anything.

[Indigo Rush]

Normal games shouldn't have to be defended like this.

 

Not just good games, normal games. Adequate games. 

 

Even in the context of Sonic games, they should not have to be defended with this level of staggering persistence. Something is wrong with Sonic 2006, and the fact that this has gone on for so many pages is proof of this.

[Burnt Ash]

There are SEVERAL flawed design choices and bad programming in Sonic Adventure. A game that I've mentioned VERY OFTEN. People still love that though. If it was "shit" design, than why do people praise the uniqueness of such stages in Adventure? If horribly programmed stages in Adventure can fly, than So can 06. And I'm quite sure that Sonic Adventure is regarded  by many as better than "good".

 

On the contrary, I think many recognize Sonic Adventure as a game that's aged pretty poorly; it was fine /then/, by virtue of novelty and different standards of "good." Apart from that even, you're trying to assert Sonic '06 is a good game. That's not a "wrong" stance in and of itself, but if you're going to justify that on the basis of other games' faults, that doesn't improve your argument; again, it does not somehow alleviate Sonic 06's own technical flaws.

 

 

And Honestly, I don't think you're worth the time either. I thought this was a Sonic 06 topic, not an English Literature and Comprehension class. Always with these Wiki pages... They could easily be changed by a troll, and you wouldn't even be the wiser.

 

I don't recall that at all. Especially yours, all you really do is rage or spit out Wiki pages. Nothing more. :/

If you're going to resort to attacking Blacklightning and dismiss his arguments, that really doesn't do too much for your own credibility in your arguments.