Most powerful Sonic character?

[Diogenes]

Well considering we're talking about gameplay, I'd figure that's a pretty important aspect. If what we're talking about is Sonic's gameplay mechanics compared to the other characters then Sonic having an ability over his peers, even if it's specific to one enemy is still pretty significant.

Nnnnnot really. If it's only useful in a small handful of cases, it's really not much of an advantage. For every Orbinaut Sonic can take out, there's dozens of instances where Tails and Knuckles can move in ways that Sonic can't. And motion's a more important factor in Sonic games than combat anyway.

Unless you're going out of your way to find said secrets, then their abilities add no more than Sonic or Amy's do. Yes, their abilities undoubtedly seem better suited to finding secrets, but otherwise you're no better off than if you were using Sonic unless the entire game has exclusive levels for them.

Even if you're not explicitly exploring, the ability to glide and climb offers a hell of a lot more than anything Sonic has unique to him (which is...what, exactly?). Tails and Knuckles can pass platforming sections much easier and they're far more likely to be able to make up for a flubbed jump.

If Luigi & Zero can play similar to Mario & X respectively while stlll having their own style of play,

Luigi, he usually doesn't have his own style. He has Mario's, with less traction and a higher jump. They're not identical, but I can't imagine saying they aren't the same basic style. And Zero, I hesitate to call him "similar" to X considering how much his beam sword changes the gameplay. It's essentially comparing a ranged character with a melee character, which not only changes how you fight but also how you deal with enemies while platforming.

Nobody's saying take a way his chaos powers,

I see two things that could be done with Shadow; A. They strip him of his Chaos Powers and give him his own style of play similar to that of Sonic's, but special properties to differentiate him.

If you really wanna solve it, I'd say completely get rid of Shadow's chaos powers, except maybe Chaos Control

Uhhhhh...?

[Fake Hedgehog]

Eggman.

 

Knowledge is power.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Well considering we're talking about gameplay, I'd figure that's a pretty important aspect. If what we're talking about is Sonic's gameplay mechanics compared to the other characters then Sonic having an ability over his peers, even if it's specific to one enemy is still pretty significant. 

If it's specific to one enemy, on one one level throughout the entire game, that isn't anywhere near significant, especially when you can avoid the enemy altogether and keep moving on forward to the end of the act.

 

And really, how often do you even make good use the insta-shield outside of the orbinaut? How versatile is it compared to flying and gliding/climbing? Because there was hardly any use for it other than split-second invincibility, which isn't something that would help you very much were you to make a screw up.

 

Unless you're going out of your way to find said secrets, then their abilities add no more than Sonic or Amy's do. Yes, their abilities undoubtedly seem better suited to finding secrets, but otherwise you're no better off than if you were using Sonic unless the entire game has exclusive levels for them.

And I take it you didn't read the part that mentioned safer platforming that I've said 3 times now?

 

And don't get me started on how those secrets allowed you to unlock Super Sonic in the game.

Whether they're interesting is subjective because people have expressed differing opinions as far as genre roulette goes, but the fact is, they're different from Sonic and have varying abilities which emphasize that, and are no more capable than him. Sonic's the fastest and has speed levels, Tails had combat, and Knuckles had exploration. Now granted, it could have been done better, but the fact is Tails & Knuckles are no more capable than Sonic in those games.

Except the most common consensus is that the formula back then hasn't aged well, and most people are against genre roulette and favored the Sonic levels more. You've heard it way too much on these very forums, much less much of the internet to call it subjective.

If Luigi & Zero can play similar to Mario & X respectively while stlll having their own style of play, I don't understand why the same can't be done for Shadow.

You really couldn't have picked the worst examples to use. Especially for Luigi as Diogenes already noted.

 

And as for Zero, the differences are far more than just comparing a ranged character to a melee one. Zero also had a ranged ability, but he primarily focused on melee with his sword. Zero also had a number of weapons and abilities that added to his more aggressive abilities on offense as a close ranged fighter; pretty much the equivalent of Shadow's Chaos Powers. X, on the other hand, was far more focused on range and staying his distance and he tended to derive his other powers from bosses. Side by side, Zero could be seen as the more interesting character.

 

But you know what they did to make X just as interesting? They didn't take away any of Zero's weapons nor did they downplay his abilities. Instead, they gave X new abilities in the form of Armors. Some like the Falcon Armor allowed him to fly for a limited period, others would allow immunity from the spikes that would kill you in one touch like the Gaea Armor, other's like the Shadow Armor allowed Megaman to cling on cielings and shoot downward, and so forth. Zero has none of these.

 

Zero kept his powers and was given new ones, and by comparison, X was given upgrades to compensate 

Nobody's saying take a way his chaos powers, but as they are now they don't serve much purpose gameplay wise and make him grossly overpowered. I see two things that could be done with Shadow; A. They strip him of his Chaos Powers and give him his own style of play similar to that of Sonic's, but special properties to differentiate him.

Dude, contradiction much? You just suggested taking away his Chaos Powers () after just saying nobody made that claim. You do know that terms like "strip" and "completely get rid of" mean "take away", right?

 

B. They keep his chaos powers, but downplay his speed so that he doesn't make Sonic seem so redundant. 

 

Or C. Shadow can keep his powers the way they are and instead give Sonic new abilities to compensate against other characters who have a far greater advantage over him. Just like they did with X compared to Zero.

 

Either way, I think the problem here is the amount of power Shadow has, and not what Sonic lacks.

Considering that the conversation has more to do than just Shadow alone, I would suggest you kindly stop singling him out.

Edited February 16, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Mogtaki]

Get rid of Shadow's Chaos power. Make him TRULY a black Sonic except one that can't run because he needs Chaos energy to use his shoes.

GENIUS.

 

Why would you think that would be a good idea? That's like taking away Knuckles's knuckles or Tails's second tail.

[UltDevilDoom]

The way I think of it, Shadow's Chaos Powers separates him from everyone else in terms of abilities. His powers make him unique. Taking them away would be stupid.

 

I don't see a problem with Shadow being very powerful. It's what I've come to expect.

Edited February 16, 2013 by UltDevilDoom

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

The problem with Shadow being powerful would be the same problem if it were Sonic, there would be no tension to it unless you give them some risk and a sense of loss to balance it out.

 

They should have a high amount of risk to go along with the high amount of power they have, or else, what's the point in seeing them take on a challenge that you know they'll win with little effort.

[UltDevilDoom]

The problem with Shadow being powerful would be the same problem if it were Sonic, there would be no tension to it unless you give them some risk and a sense of loss to balance it out.

 

They should have a high amount of risk to go along with the high amount of power they have, or else, what's the point in seeing them take on a challenge that you know they'll win with little effort.

You bring up a good point. There should always be a challenge. I don't think that Shadow is so powerful that he can defeat anyone easily. He shouldn't be.

 

I still think he's the most powerful character, though.

[#EndyGate]

Personally I prefer when a main character has a bit less than the others, especially in games like Sonic, because it gives you an actual incentive to play with and experience them, instead of spending all of your time frolicking with the superior to everyone else main character that everyone cares about. Plus, I love a good underdog, and find when a protagonist, who really lacks the abilities of his friends and rivals, is able to shine and overcome such a hindrance far more enjoyable than when a the same character with even more powers can do the same.

 

Though I do feel that a new move or two really wouldn't hurt giving Sonic, and I do kinda like the idea of bringing back Sonic Wind/Tornado. Maybe you could attach it to a move like the kick he used in 06 (and I think unleashed but not sure) and by holding down the button used to activate the move, instead of a single rotation Sonic'll keep spinning until a tornado forms around him. From there you could either release the attack button to send the tornado flying forward to attack enemies as Sonic hops back, or use it as a form of Super Jump for holding the attack button for a second or two longer after the tornado initially forms.

 

The problem with Shadow being powerful would be the same problem if it were Sonic, there would be no tension to it unless you give them some risk and a sense of loss to balance it out.

 

They should have a high amount of risk to go along with the high amount of power they have, or else, what's the point in seeing them take on a challenge that you know they'll win with little effort.

 

Well one possibility is to make more of Shadow's moves and what not completely reliant on the presence of Chaos Abilities. So say during gameplay, or at least in a theoretical game in which the boost is not present/available, have every action slowly wear away at Shadow's Chaos Gauge, so say that every skate, every homing attack, every chaos spear, and chaos whatever, some amount of his gauge would disappear depending on each one, like say skating only takes away extremely tiny and insignificant fragments until it begins to pile on, while something like the Chaos Blast would take off huge chunks if not deplete it instantly. Such a mechanic would emphasize conservation of the energy gauge  for once it disappears, you're basically rendered to nothing more than a rather slow Sonic, thus providing a form of risk to go along with his overpoweredness.

[Chaosomega]

hmm, I would say against Sonic himself, would be Chaos, since he is composed of water, Sonic's weakness 

[Kuzu]

Nnnnnot really. If it's only useful in a small handful of cases, it's really not much of an advantage. For every Orbinaut Sonic can take out, there's dozens of instances where Tails and Knuckles can move in ways that Sonic can't. And motion's a more important factor in Sonic games than combat anyway.

Well Sonic has had a lot more abilities in later games that other characters don't have as well, mostly related to movement; bouncing, light dash(to date, it's only shared with Shadow), boosting, stomp, etc. etc. All of those serve to make Sonic move about the level in a different way from Tails or Knuckles.

 

Even if you're not explicitly exploring, the ability to glide and climb offers a hell of a lot more than anything Sonic has unique to him (which is...what, exactly?). Tails and Knuckles can pass platforming sections much easier and they're far more likely to be able to make up for a flubbed jump

Like I Said, Sonic would later get a whole bunch of abilities that neither Tails or Knuckles have.

 

Luigi, he usually doesn't have his own style. He has Mario's, with less traction and a higher jump. They're not identical, but I can't imagine saying they aren't the same basic style. And Zero, I hesitate to call him "similar" to X considering how much his beam sword changes the gameplay. It's essentially comparing a ranged character with a melee character, which not only changes how you fight but also how you deal with enemies while platforming.

Alright I'll give you that, but for better or worse, the other characters would play differently from Sonic, more or less circumventing the problem of the lack of Sonic's uniqueness.

 

Uhhhhh...?

 

An admitely dumbass moment on my part, I tend to forget what I post.

 

 

If it's specific to one enemy, on one one level throughout the entire game, that isn't anywhere near significant, especially when you can avoid the enemy altogether and keep moving on forward to the end of the act.

 

And really, how often do you even make good use the insta-shield outside of the orbinaut? How versatile is it compared to flying and gliding/climbing? Because there was hardly any use for it other than split-second invincibility, which isn't something that would help you very much were you to make a screw up.

Alright fine, but as I pointed out to Dio above, Sonic does later gain abilities that help his movement that Tails & Knuckles lack, and they help make the act more consistent and fast paced.

 

And I take it you didn't read the part that mentioned safer platforming that I've said 3 times now?

 

And don't get me started on how those secrets allowed you to unlock Super Sonic in the game.

Well the characters in 3&K can be considered certain difficulty levels in this case; Tails is easy, Sonic is medium, and Knuckles is hard mode. Each of them add a level of challenge to the game and provide a different but still unique experience. Now granted this doesn't give Sonic any edge over Tails or Knuckles like you said, but it's something I feel needs to be pointed out.

 

 

Except the most common consensus is that the formula back then hasn't aged well, and most people are against genre roulette and favored the Sonic levels more. You've heard it way too much on these very forums, much less much of the internet to call it subjective.

I think the hate for genre roulette comes more from how they're structured than simply existing. Big's levels are monotonous and drawn out, Amy is slower than the average Sonic character, and Knuckles` levels feature a pretty shitty radar in SA2, if I recall the hate for his levels didn't really start until that came out.

 

You really couldn't have picked the worst examples to use. Especially for Luigi as Diogenes already noted.

 

And as for Zero, the differences are far more than just comparing a ranged character to a melee one. Zero also had a ranged ability, but he primarily focused on melee with his sword. Zero also had a number of weapons and abilities that added to his more aggressive abilities on offense as a close ranged fighter; pretty much the equivalent of Shadow's Chaos Powers. X, on the other hand, was far more focused on range and staying his distance and he tended to derive his other powers from bosses. Side by side, Zero could be seen as the more interesting character.

 

But you know what they did to make X just as interesting? They didn't take away any of Zero's weapons nor did they downplay his abilities. Instead, they gave X new abilities in the form of Armors. Some like the Falcon Armor allowed him to fly for a limited period, others would allow immunity from the spikes that would kill you in one touch like the Gaea Armor, other's like the Shadow Armor allowed Megaman to cling on cielings and shoot downward, and so forth. Zero has none of these.

 

Zero kept his powers and was given new ones, and by comparison, X was given upgrades to compensate 

Well how would go about giving Sonic new abilities if toning down the abilities of another character is out of the question. If I recall, a problem I've heard people have with Shadow is how overpowered he is, especially compared to everyone else rather than how weak Sonic is. Why is it that Tails or Knuckles seem to get off scott free here?

 

Dude, contradiction much? You just suggested taking away his Chaos Powers () after just saying nobody made that claim. You do know that terms like "strip" and "completely get rid of" mean "take away", right?

Once again, dumbass moment on my part.

 

Or C. Shadow can keep his powers the way they are and instead give Sonic new abilities to compensate against other characters who have a far greater advantage over him. Just like they did with X compared to Zero.

Well they've already kind of done that by giving such moves as the drift, quick step, boost, and etc. But I've heard that those abilties aren't good enough or for some reason or another, make the other characters weak.

 

Considering that the conversation has more to do than just Shadow alone, I would suggest you kindly stop singling him out.

 

I only bring him up because he's the only one to date to still have most of Sonic's abilities in addition to his own. I also bring it up because most of the cast have some type of specialization while lacking in another; Sonic was speed, Tails was flight, Knuckles was strength, etc. but if Shadow has both speed and strength(In this case his chaos powers), doesn't that make him a slight bit overpowered?

 

Get rid of Shadow's Chaos power. Make him TRULY a black Sonic except one that can't run because he needs Chaos energy to use his shoes.

Because it's not like he didn't have his speed nerfed in the past and played perfectly fine despite that right? Oh wait.

 

See, I can be a snarky asshole too =P

 

Why would you think that would be a good idea? That's like taking away Knuckles's knuckles or Tails's second tail.

 

Because he has ALL of Sonic's abilities ON TOP of his own unique moveset. If the problem is trying to make Sonic unique, how about we stop giving what makes him unique to everyone else.

[Mogtaki]

Because it's not like he didn't have his speed nerfed in the past and played perfectly fine despite that right? Oh wait.

 

See, I can be a snarky asshole too =P

 

 

Because he has ALL of Sonic's abilities ON TOP of his own unique moveset. If the problem is trying to make Sonic unique, how about we stop giving what makes him unique to everyone else.

 

Did you just refer to Sonic 06? Really? Can't we keep that out of the discussions?

 

Shadow is made to be Sonic's rival to which he plays out very well. I don't think I don't know many rivals who have the same abilities as the hero with added abilities and traits on top of that only for them to not be able to defeat them because they lack something personality-wise, not skill-wise.

 

Even Gary friggin Oaks can be an example because he has all the know-how plus more knowledge over Pokemon, is more resourceful in collecting them, is faster at doing so, steamrolls through everything before you do but because the hero has the 'power of love and friendship' with his Pokemon then the hero constantly steamrolls Gary in return.

 

It's just the way things go. Personality is a power too, even Eggman draws power from his insanity to create abominations using his vast intellect as opposed to Tails who doesn't do any of that but is still just as smart.

[Diogenes]

Well Sonic has had a lot more abilities in later games that other characters don't have as well, mostly related to movement; bouncing, light dash(to date, it's only shared with Shadow), boosting, stomp, etc. etc. All of those serve to make Sonic move about the level in a different way from Tails or Knuckles.

Not really. The bounce and stomp don't offer much; the former a minuscule gain in height, both the ability to break things below you (which Knuckles can match with his drill dive anyway). The light dash requires a trail of rings and you don't have any control over where it takes you, as compared to moves that can be used freely and in a direction of your choice. And boosting is just going really fast and not really caring about enemies; aside from maybe the occasional air boost (which isn't much more than a beefed up air dash or flame shield dash) it doesn't really open up any new ways to navigate an area.

From what I see most of the moves that Sonic's gained fall into one or both of two categories. First, the move is very context sensitive and doesn't have much or any use outside that context (the light dash, the slide, the quick step), which doesn't really compare to moves that can be used at will to great effect even when they aren't specifically called for. Second, the move is kind of essential to the gameplay (for the modern gameplay, there's the boost, quick step, drift), so if they avoid genre roulette, other characters would likely be granted those moves (or something like them) anyway.

Alright I'll give you that, but for better or worse, the other characters would play differently from Sonic, more or less circumventing the problem of the lack of Sonic's uniqueness.

Unless you're talking about genre roulette, I'm not sure I see how.

An admitely dumbass moment on my part, I tend to forget what I post.

Man one of those quotes was from the same paragraph.

Well the characters in 3&K can be considered certain difficulty levels in this case; Tails is easy, Sonic is medium, and Knuckles is hard mode.

What about Knuckles is hard mode? He jumps a bit lower, but that's rarely relevant, and he skips a few bosses and even the last few levels. At any rate, character-as-difficulty is only tangentially related; Sonic could (and I say should) still have some unique movement ability of his own even if he was supposed to be the hardest character.

Well how would go about giving Sonic new abilities if toning down the abilities of another character is out of the question. If I recall, a problem I've heard people have with Shadow is how overpowered he is, especially compared to everyone else rather than how weak Sonic is. Why is it that Tails or Knuckles seem to get off scott free here?

Tails and Knuckles being overpowered is largely restricted to gameplay, while Shadow being overpowered extends into the story. Tails was always the sidekick struggling to keep up, so even though he was statistically the same as Sonic, as well as gaining player-controlled flight in S3&K, he wasn't portrayed in a way that made him Sonic-but-more. Knuckles, likewise, he was as fast as Sonic in-game and had abilities on top of that, but the rivalry was portrayed as strength vs speed, not strength-and-speed vs speed. Shadow, on the other hand, is meant to be able to match Sonic move-for-move in speed in canon, and he's got crazy spacetime powers on top of that.

I also bring it up because most of the cast have some type of specialization while lacking in another; Sonic was speed, Tails was flight, Knuckles was strength, etc.

If the problem is trying to make Sonic unique, how about we stop giving what makes him unique to everyone else.

I'm singling these two bits out because they kind of cut to the heart of the problem: this is a Sonic game, everyone's supposed to be at least reasonably fast. Specializing in speed doesn't get you a whole lot when everyone else is fast too. And Sonic doesn't really have much that makes him unique, because his gameplay was the basis for everyone else's.

[Kuzu]

Did you just refer to Sonic 06? Really? Can't we keep that out of the discussions?

Where in my post did I mention 06?

 

Shadow is made to be Sonic's rival to which he plays out very well. I don't think I don't know many rivals who have the same abilities as the hero with added abilities and traits on top of that only for them to not be able to defeat them because they lack something personality-wise, not skill-wise.

That's honestly a load of crap, so you mean to tell me that if I had all the power in the world, I couldn't be somebody simply because they're nicer? It just says the rival can't win simply because the hero's plot armor is so thick that he can't even pose a challenge. Even Goku & Vegeta were equals in their attempts outdo the other.

 

 

 

It's just the way things go. Personality is a power too, even Eggman draws power from his insanity to create abominations using his vast intellect as opposed to Tails who doesn't do any of that but is still just as smart.

Eggman has far more resources and ambition than Tails does, and he tends to lose more because of his massive ego and underestimating his enemies and/or the monster of the week than because Sonic is much more pure than him.

 

Not really. The bounce and stomp don't offer much; the former a minuscule gain in height, both the ability to break things below you (which Knuckles can match with his drill dive anyway). The light dash requires a trail of rings and you don't have any control over where it takes you, as compared to moves that can be used freely and in a direction of your choice. And boosting is just going really fast and not really caring about enemies; aside from maybe the occasional air boost (which isn't much more than a beefed up air dash or flame shield dash) it doesn't really open up any new ways to navigate an area.

From what I see most of the moves that Sonic's gained fall into one or both of two categories. First, the move is very context sensitive and doesn't have much or any use outside that context (the light dash, the slide, the quick step), which doesn't really compare to moves that can be used at will to great effect even when they aren't specifically called for. Second, the move is kind of essential to the gameplay (for the modern gameplay, there's the boost, quick step, drift), so if they avoid genre roulette, other characters would likely be granted those moves (or something like them) anyway.

Well how do you give Sonic more abilities if all gameplay aspects are covered with him alone, other characters have their abilities to make them different from Sonic himself, but Sonic doesn't really need anything else because his moveset is enough to play the game already. What moves can Sonic use that nobody else already has, but aren't so situational that they're useless anywhere else.

 

Unless you're talking about genre roulette, I'm not sure I see how.

Yes, I was talking about genre roulette.

 

 

 

What about Knuckles is hard mode? He jumps a bit lower, but that's rarely relevant, and he skips a few bosses and even the last few levels. At any rate, character-as-difficulty is only tangentially related; Sonic could (and I say should) still have some unique movement ability of his own even if he was supposed to be the hardest character.

I brought it up as a point of saying how Sonic differentiates from the other two regardless of any ability he lacks. If Sonic absolutely needs to have an ability to call his own without stripping them away from everyone else, then I'd love to hear what moves Sonic could use.

 

Tails and Knuckles being overpowered is largely restricted to gameplay, while Shadow being overpowered extends into the story. Tails was always the sidekick struggling to keep up, so even though he was statistically the same as Sonic, as well as gaining player-controlled flight in S3&K, he wasn't portrayed in a way that made him Sonic-but-more. Knuckles, likewise, he was as fast as Sonic in-game and had abilities on top of that, but the rivalry was portrayed as strength vs speed, not strength-and-speed vs speed. Shadow, on the other hand, is meant to be able to match Sonic move-for-move in speed in canon, and he's got crazy spacetime powers on top of that.

But the problem still lies there, everybody can do what Sonic can do and then some. So once again, if toning down powers is out of the question, what reasonable abilities can Sonic use?

 

I'm singling these two bits out because they kind of cut to the heart of the problem: this is a Sonic game, everyone's supposed to be at least reasonably fast. Specializing in speed doesn't get you a whole lot when everyone else is fast too. And Sonic doesn't really have much that makes him unique, because his gameplay was the basis for everyone else's.

 

It still leads back to my question then: How does Sonic become unique when everyone can do everything he can do and then some, but not strip anything from anyone else as it helps define them from Sonic.

[Diogenes]

Where in my post did I mention 06?

...then what game were you referring to?

That's honestly a load of crap, so you mean to tell me that if I had all the power in the world, I couldn't be somebody simply because they're nicer? It just says the rival can't win simply because the hero's plot armor is so thick that he can't even pose a challenge. Even Goku & Vegeta were equals in their attempts outdo the other.

It's not that "being nice" is a ticket to invincibility, but that raw power is not the sole deciding factor in a fight. With the Pokemon example, it's not that the protagonist wins simply because he's nice, but because he forges a bond with his pokemon, which makes them stronger and allows them to fight together better, compared to the antagonist who just power levels and tends to see his pokemon as tools. Sometimes this overlaps with plot armor, but not always, and when there is genuine overlap it's often still justified since the message is more important than a strict logical analysis of strengths and weaknesses.

Although Sonic stories tend to have all the weight and emotional resonance of damp toilet paper, so it hasn't often applied in this series...

Well how do you give Sonic more abilities if all gameplay aspects are covered with him alone, other characters have their abilities to make them different from Sonic himself, but Sonic doesn't really need anything else because his moveset is enough to play the game already.

Well you start by not, creating Sonic's gameplay, creating everyone else's gameplay by tweaking and adding to Sonic's, and then not doing anything more to Sonic. Start by creating the template for Sonic gameplay, the abilities and traits that all characters share, and then create gameplay for the characters (Sonic included) by modifying the template.

What moves can Sonic use that nobody else already has, but aren't so situational that they're useless anywhere else.

I suggest again a good, responsive walljump, especially for 2D games. For 3D, I suggest expanded wallrunning. Give him the ability to start a wallrun without needing a quarter pipe connecting floor and wall.

Yes, I was talking about genre roulette.

ew

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Alright fine, but as I pointed out to Dio above, Sonic does later gain abilities that help his movement that Tails & Knuckles lack, and they help make the act more consistent and fast paced.

Except they don't often stick. 3D games have done away abilities like Bounce Attack, and some like the slide and stomp could still be replicated by other characters if they were to be implemented.

 

And in 2D games, Sonic's one difference in S3&K was that he could use the shields for more than just protection. Now that we don't use the elemental shields anymore, he's right back into the same position before they were introduced.

 

SAdv2 and 3 try to somewhat rectify that difference, especially with 3 when it comes to character team-ups and giving each character differing abilities, but even still Sonic is far at a disadvantage for the same reasons previously mentioned.

 

Well the characters in 3&K can be considered certain difficulty levels in this case; Tails is easy, Sonic is medium, and Knuckles is hard mode. Each of them add a level of challenge to the game and provide a different but still unique experience. Now granted this doesn't give Sonic any edge over Tails or Knuckles like you said, but it's something I feel needs to be pointed out.

More like Knuckles is the medium and Sonic is the hard...but Dio already took this part on, so I'll just continue with the later points.

 

Well how would go about giving Sonic new abilities if toning down the abilities of another character is out of the question. If I recall, a problem I've heard people have with Shadow is how overpowered he is, especially compared to everyone else rather than how weak Sonic is. Why is it that Tails or Knuckles seem to get off scott free here?

Tails and Knuckles really shouldn't be getting off scott free, but that has more to do with bias that favors them no matter what that I'm sure you're all to aware of.

 

As for how I would go about giving Sonic new abilities? Well for one, we're going to need to think really far outside the box.

 

One idea I have is sooo outside the box that I'm not sure I should bother sharing that one since I know that it'll be too odd for anyone to agree in its implementation, but to be more closer to home I suggest bringing back the Sonic Wind ability that was used for Sonic in SA2 and mold it into something more unique for Sonic. You could use it as an attack, you could use it as an extension of platforming where the ability can allow double jumping or additional lift to keep you airborne as you sharply drift to the ground...really, I'm just pulling these ideas out of my head as I go.

 

Although I really wouldn't mind if Sonic was given literal armor to allow an enhancement of his abilities and even more abilities. (this was the idea that was too far out of the box by the way)

Well they've already kind of done that by giving such moves as the drift, quick step, boost, and etc. But I've heard that those abilties aren't good enough or for some reason or another, make the other characters weak.

Those abilities are more like the core aspects of the game, and any other character that would be playable would have to use them to some fashion to where Sonic is still the bottom line as far as abilities go. If you were to bring in Shadow, Metal Sonic, or even Blaze, they would have to have those abilities as well on top of the other unique powers they already have, and so you end up repeating the problem even more so in 3D.

 

I only bring him up because he's the only one to date to still have most of Sonic's abilities in addition to his own. I also bring it up because most of the cast have some type of specialization while lacking in another; Sonic was speed, Tails was flight, Knuckles was strength, etc. but if Shadow has both speed and strength(In this case his chaos powers), doesn't that make him a slight bit overpowered?

I've brought him and every other character up because Sonic is the most basic as far as abilities go. Almost every recurring ability he has, be it the spin-dash, homing attack, or even straight up running, all the other characters have it too, on top of them being able to Fly (Tails, Rouge, Cream), super strength (Knuckles, Omega, Vector), Chaos Powers (Shadow), Pyrokinesis (Blaze), Psychokinesis (Silver), and so forth. And if they don't have any of Sonic's abilities, they could find a way to cheat and make an equivalent; Blaze for example doesn't roll into a ball in the Rush titles and so she doesn't spin-dash into a ball, but she can hover in place and build fire behind her before boosting off in a manner similar to a spin-dash, and Silver can theoretically just throw himself forward with his Psychokinesis if he wanted.

 

Sonic needs something for him that doesn't make him the base standard. He needs something that allows him to stand as a character who is just as unique on his own. Something that you can only use if you were to play as Sonic, or that if other characters have something similar, something that

 

Kind of like how X has his Armors and Copy abilities compared to Zero's focus on Melee weapons in the Megaman series.

Edited February 17, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[SenEDDtor Missile]

Sonic needs something for him that doesn't make him the base standard. He needs something that allows him to stand as a character who is just as unique on his own. Something that you can only use if you were to play as Sonic, or that if other characters have something similar, something that

 

Kind of like how X has his Armors and Copy abilities compared to Zero's focus on Melee weapons in the Megaman series.

Hm...

Two fanfictiony ideas here, so be warned:

The first one is partially based on this post I made some time back, on the alternate forms of Sonic:

Basically put, his three alternate forms: could potentially be retooled into three forms Sonic can use by fulfilling certain prerequisites. Darkspines would be the firey bruiser with powerful melee attacks, Excalibur would be the slightly slower, but rather tankish glacier, and Werehog would be kinda similar to Frenzy, except with actual control over his attacks and movement. The problem with this idea is that you'd have to find a way to justify these forms existing outside of their canon appearances, and you'd have to balance them so they don't end up invalidating Super Sonic.

 

OR...

 

The second idea is based on what CSS stated about X and his copy ability:

Sonic, instead of copying the abilities like Chaos or Emerl, would instead absorb energy from his environment to gain attributes based on said environment. Why would I say this? Going into headcanon territory, I say this because Sonic forms a rather interesting trio with his fellow hedgehogs Shadow and Silver, not just simply because of their whole "Past, Present, and Future" shtick, but also their general attack styles.

 

Shadow focuses on turning his chaos energy into a powerful blast or means of destroying his enemy, effectively making him a Glass Cannon. Silver mostly rotates between attack and defense with his Psychokinesis, but for the most part tries to keep his distance from the fight and attack from a distance, while also having a means to keep himself protected if the enemy gets too close.

 

So what does Sonic do? He adapts. My personal headcanon follows the fact that Sonic has been subjected to a wide variety of energies and powers over the years, moreso than any of the other characters COMBINED. He's had alien powers from Wisps, the very power of a god from Dark Gaia, the energy of the sacred swords from the Arthurian storybook, and the power of emotions from the Secret Rings, ON TOP of his exposure to the Chaos Emeralds. I would stand to think, based on this data alone, that his chaos powers would be extremely flexible and adaptable after being exposed to such a menagerie of powers, and thus I wouldn't consider it all that outlandish that he could pull some power from his surroundings, and mold it into something he can use to enhance himself, rather than just use it as a tool like Shadow or Silver.

 

Granted there will have to be some restrictions applied to prevent him from becoming too powerful, like maybe he can only use each power for a few seconds, or each power is very weak compared to a full version, ie his pyrokinetics would be very weak compared to Blazes, or something.

 

Anyways, that's all I got. Thoughts?

Edited February 17, 2013 by 743-E.D. Missile

[Diogenes]

The first one is partially based on this post I made some time back, on the alternate forms of Sonic:

The big problem I have with this is that all of those forms are focused on combat, and Sonic games...aren't. You might be able to argue in favor of one combat-focused form, but 3 is kind of silly. And it really doesn't address the main disparity between Sonic and Tails/Knuckles, since that's one of movement, not fighting.

The second idea is based on what CSS stated about X and his copy ability:

And this strikes me as another instance of giving Sonic arbitrary magic powers without regard for what he is supposed to be. Sure, Sonic has been exposed to various energies from various supernatural things throughout the series, but it's still a pretty huge stretch to say he can absorb unspecified energies from arbitrary things. Explicitly magic jewels? Ok. Aliens that contain a named super-energy? Sure. Regular old fire? Uhhhh...?

[SenEDDtor Missile]

The big problem I have with this is that all of those forms are focused on combat, and Sonic games...aren't. You might be able to argue in favor of one combat-focused form, but 3 is kind of silly. And it really doesn't address the main disparity between Sonic and Tails/Knuckles, since that's one of movement, not fighting.

And this strikes me as another instance of giving Sonic arbitrary magic powers without regard for what he is supposed to be. Sure, Sonic has been exposed to various energies from various supernatural things throughout the series, but it's still a pretty huge stretch to say he can absorb unspecified energies from arbitrary things. Explicitly magic jewels? Ok. Aliens that contain a named super-energy? Sure. Regular old fire? Uhhhh...?

 

Well to be fair, I was mostly thinking in terms of how to differentiate Sonic enough from his fellow cast members abilities wise, since his general basic moveset is shared among most of the other characters, and when you place him side by side with the others, he does tend to seem a little underpowered compared to them. I didn't really take into consideration the whole "Battle Vs. Movement" thing.

 

That being said, if we are looking for a way to give him something movement related, why not use wind based powers, or at the least see the return of abilities that focus on using speed induced wind to propel him into new areas. The wind can also be used to suck enemies in, so it serves more than one purpose.

[Jolt_TH]

Why are we talking about powers? I think Sonic just needs a new move or two that are entirely his own.

I agree with Dio, a wall jump/run idea would be great, maybe if you homing attacked the wall or something? It gives sonic a greater plane of movement, then he could run along walls and even straight up a cliff without needing a half pipe. Also this would be a believable addition, he's friggin fast, so why wouldn't he be able to do so, it makes a lot more sense than "sonic just gained some random power to do with wind/chaos/whatever" I didn't question the boost because it makes sense, as would a wall jump.

The other addition would be a double jump maybe...but I'm not sure how you'd enable it with the homing attack taking up the jump button while in the air (as it should stay)

[Kuzu]

The problem is mostly that Sonic's moveset tends to be the backbone of the gameplay so any move he gets tends to be passed off to everyone else so they can function. Realistically I think we should change the properties of everyone else's moves so the serve the same function, but work differently.

CSS & Dio, I'll reply to your posts later

[Jolt_TH]

I was suggesting the wall jump/run as Sonics alternative to tails fly & Knux climb & glide.

It could be used as alternate paths e.g. Tails can reach higher areas with fly, or traverse large pits, Knux can enter areas by smashing through walls other characters can't, sonics wall run could be used to get to areas that require a more specific path (maybe traversing a pit with obstacles).

I'm not denying Sonics move set is the common standard, I was making 2 points

1) he doesn't need a power addition, a skill that makes sense would do

2) why CAN'T he have a skill to himself, sure everyone has jumping, spin dash, ect. But if he was to have a skill akin to Tails fly or knuckles glide then that would be sonics version of that move, it works slightly differently thus opening new paths, increasing replay value

[Generations]

Most of the main Sonic characters are powerful in different ways, so it depends...

[Sparky]

Hm...

Two fanfictiony ideas here, so be warned:

The first one is partially based on this post I made some time back, on the alternate forms of Sonic:

Basically put, his three alternate forms: could potentially be retooled into three forms Sonic can use by fulfilling certain prerequisites. Darkspines would be the firey bruiser with powerful melee attacks, Excalibur would be the slightly slower, but rather tankish glacier, and Werehog would be kinda similar to Frenzy, except with actual control over his attacks and movement. The problem with this idea is that you'd have to find a way to justify these forms existing outside of their canon appearances, and you'd have to balance them so they don't end up invalidating Super Sonic.

 

OR...

 

The second idea is based on what CSS stated about X and his copy ability:

Sonic, instead of copying the abilities like Chaos or Emerl, would instead absorb energy from his environment to gain attributes based on said environment. Why would I say this? Going into headcanon territory, I say this because Sonic forms a rather interesting trio with his fellow hedgehogs Shadow and Silver, not just simply because of their whole "Past, Present, and Future" shtick, but also their general attack styles.

 

Shadow focuses on turning his chaos energy into a powerful blast or means of destroying his enemy, effectively making him a Glass Cannon. Silver mostly rotates between attack and defense with his Psychokinesis, but for the most part tries to keep his distance from the fight and attack from a distance, while also having a means to keep himself protected if the enemy gets too close.

 

So what does Sonic do? He adapts. My personal headcanon follows the fact that Sonic has been subjected to a wide variety of energies and powers over the years, moreso than any of the other characters COMBINED. He's had alien powers from Wisps, the very power of a god from Dark Gaia, the energy of the sacred swords from the Arthurian storybook, and the power of emotions from the Secret Rings, ON TOP of his exposure to the Chaos Emeralds. I would stand to think, based on this data alone, that his chaos powers would be extremely flexible and adaptable after being exposed to such a menagerie of powers, and thus I wouldn't consider it all that outlandish that he could pull some power from his surroundings, and mold it into something he can use to enhance himself, rather than just use it as a tool like Shadow or Silver.

 

Granted there will have to be some restrictions applied to prevent him from becoming too powerful, like maybe he can only use each power for a few seconds, or each power is very weak compared to a full version, ie his pyrokinetics would be very weak compared to Blazes, or something.

 

Anyways, that's all I got. Thoughts?

Sonic being able to adapt to any super-powerful energy source is something I concluded long ago. It can be shown even from the elemental shields. 

[Unidus]

Probably Dr. Eggman... the guy never EVER dies. He can run as fast as sonic (ending of Sonic the Hedgehog 2). And, most importantly, he is a ''genius". Seems pretty powerful to me.