Most powerful Sonic character?

[Diogenes]

I believe Cell required a cell, while Buu only required a molecule. They both had utterly implausible regeneration, at any rate.

[Chaos Controller]

Because the series is already more or less a shonen anime.

 

 

A really bad one.

In the broadest sense, I suppose I can kinda agree. It's an adventure series targeted at younger children, so I you're technically right, I suppose.

But, lumping it into the genre just doesn't feel right to me, for some reason.

[batson]

But, lumping it into the genre just doesn't feel right to me, for some reason.

 

It probably would have felt more or less right to me if it wasn't for the fact that the Sonic series have had a lot of influence from the US (especially nowadays when the scripts are written by Amercian writers, and therefore are in a billion subtle ways indeed very American and very non-Japanese) which in my eyes prevents it from being "thouroghbly Japanese" enough to fit 100% in with the extremely Japanese shonen genre.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

I'm not a huge Dragon Ball Z fan, but isn't that meant to be Cell you're thinking of, not Buu?

...No?

 

I've watched series all the way up from Dragon Ball to Dragonball GT, dude. I know what I'm talking about when I mention Buu. They once reduced this guy to nothing but ashes and he regenerated from the smoke!

Edited February 14, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Tani Coyote]

I always theorized that the character's exceptional abilities was because of Chaos Energy, just manifested in different forms; I mean the Chaos Emeralds turn thoughts into power, what if that extends to chaos energy in general.

 

 

I actually like this idea. A genetic mutation, a more subtle means of harnessing it than actually radiating the energy.

 

I've used it before in fanworks, but I think it makes a lot of sense. Also explains why the furry cast almost all have some special ability.

 

On that note, I wonder if being Mobian at all is the result of some mutation in the game canon. They've all more or less had some unique talent, from the common (extra intellect) to the outright unbelievable (super strength, speed, etc.).

 

Many people with great motivating reason to put a bullet in Shadow's head or use some other lethal means have had ample opportunity where he was at their mercy - such as when GUN imprisoned him 50 years ago, and when future Omega was reprogrammed by the p*ssed off masses in Sonic06 and he was imprisoned again; yet he is still alive after them, and I doubt that is because of a lack of effort on their part (heck even the GUN Commander said shoot them all in reference to Shadow)

 

This is actually a very good point.

 

For the military it could certainly be argued they thought they could use him again at some point, but they never needed him in the span of half a century? I find that hard to believe - anyone who's studied modern history can tell you quite a bit can happen in that span of time. (See the Cold War)

 

Gerald was apparently more clever than one would think, as the signs are pointing to his durability being quite immense.

 

I would not be surprised if the Master Emerald would have the power to defeat him completely; I think it's safe to assume conventional weapons just can't kill him. Sure they can in actual gameplay, but that's the usual story/gameplay segregation for you.

[The Pit of Mystic Cave]

I would say Shadow, but apparently everyone and their mother has easily perfected Chaos Control, which was the only thing that made him special in the first half of Adventure 2 (even though hes supposed to be some "ultimate life-form"). My number one spot has to go to Metal Sonic, who is designed specifically as an improvement of Sonic himself.

[Xenos]

But then that's not using his natural speed.

 

I just don't see why Sonic should go from being a superfast buzzsaw to using generic anime energy shit. He's never needed to shoot lasers like a DBZ reject, he's never needed a magical or pseudoscientific explanation for his superhuman abilities...what does it add? It only makes him less focused and more generic.

 

..And this is neither of those, so what exactly are you getting at?

 

It adds an easier way to give Sonic extra abilities that he normally wouldn't be able to do himself, and I don't see much of a problem with that. Sure, we could say Sonic can do said moves himself, but sooner or later suspension of disbelief will probably start taking effect. It could also give Sonic a bit of an edge considering most of the time compared to the other characters, he doesn't have much that makes him specifically unique other then, "everyone is sorta fast, but Sonic is even faster!"

 

How the hell is it less "focused" when the entire point of these hypothetical chaos abilities is to still focus on his speedy aspects and wind-like nature? That doesn't make much sense to me. If you mean Sonic shouldn't need them at all, well sure, maybe.

 

You can give Sonic abilities that focus on his speedy aspects without involving it with Chaos energy, but from a story standpoint (even though they're hardly there lately) I think giving him these abilities with it would give for a better explanation.

[Kuzu]

..And this is neither of those, so what exactly are you getting at?

 

It adds an easier way to give Sonic extra abilities that he normally wouldn't be able to do himself, and I don't see much of a problem with that. Sure, we could say Sonic can do said moves himself, but sooner or later suspension of disbelief will probably start taking effect. It could also give Sonic a bit of an edge considering most of the time compared to the other characters, he doesn't have much that makes him specifically unique other then, "everyone is sorta fast, but Sonic is even faster!"

 

How the hell is it less "focused" when the entire point of these hypothetical chaos abilities is to still focus on his speedy aspects and wind-like nature? That doesn't make much sense to me. If you mean Sonic shouldn't need them at all, well sure, maybe.

 

You can give Sonic abilities that focus on his speedy aspects without involving it with Chaos energy, but from a story standpoint (even though they're hardly there lately) I think giving him these abilities with it would give for a better explanation.

 

 

I think what he meant rather than trying to pile more arbitrary abilities on Sonic, just focus on the abilities he does have and go from there. Sonic's forte is speed so any additional abilities should be derived from that.

[Komodin]

I think what he meant rather than trying to pile more arbitrary abilities on Sonic, just focus on the abilities he does have and go from there. Sonic's forte is speed so any additional abilities should be derived from that.

 

So, Sonic using his supersonic speed to generate tornadoes on demand isn't too out-there, right?

[Kuzu]

So, Sonic using his supersonic speed to generate tornadoes on demand isn't too out-there, right?

 

 

Not really, no.

[Diogenes]

..And this is neither of those, so what exactly are you getting at?

Sonic Wind is the DBZ, boosting being based on chaos energy is the unnecessary explanation.

It adds an easier way to give Sonic extra abilities that he normally wouldn't be able to do himself,

To me, if it's something Sonic can't do himself, that's a sign that he probably doesn't need it. A character should have limits to what kinds of things they can do. New techniques should generally work within those constraints, or you risk betraying what the character is about.

It could also give Sonic a bit of an edge considering most of the time compared to the other characters, he doesn't have much that makes him specifically unique other then, "everyone is sorta fast, but Sonic is even faster!"

A lot of things could give Sonic an edge. But not all of them fit the character. I don't want them to turn Sonic into a wizard any more than I wanted them to turn Shadow into a sniper.

How the hell is it less "focused" when the entire point of these hypothetical chaos abilities is to still focus on his speedy aspects and wind-like nature?

Because you're taking "is super fast" and "is a hedgehog" and adding "has magic powers" to the list.

You can give Sonic abilities that focus on his speedy aspects without involving it with Chaos energy, but from a story standpoint (even though they're hardly there lately) I think giving him these abilities with it would give for a better explanation.

But why does it need an explanation? Or rather, why can't the explanation be "he is super fast" and/or "he is very spiky and can curl into a ball"? We never needed an explanation for how Sonic can run so fast. We never needed an explanation for why he can buzzsaw through enemies. We never needed an explanation for how he can spin in place to build up speed. We never needed an explanation for how he can dash in midair.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Why not use that superspeed as what can allow him to use Sonic Wind; moves fast enough to split the molecules and unleashes the energy in a particular direction? Huh? HUH?

...okay, so I pulled that out of my ass. Just trying to think outside the box.

Don't think we should turn something down if we can find a fitting use for it, but at the same time I'd like to avoid making this too much like DBZ.

[Diogenes]

If he was going to have Sonic Wind, I'd rather that explanation than chaos powers. But I still think if you need to come up with some elaborate explanation for how a character can do something, you should probably stop and think a bit on if it actually fits the character in the first place.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Honestly, if you ask me, I'm more in favor of giving Sonic at most one other Chaos Power aside from Chaos Control in his normal form (his superform is a near deus ex machina, so no stopping other powers there) just so he has something to compete with other characters like Shadow with his abilities and even Tails simply being able to invent whatever the hell he wants than just his speed alone.

 

And if Sonic Wind has to fall under being a Chaos Power, the only reason I'd be against that is if there is no way we could find a use for it, but other than that I'd be up for the sacrifice. I believe that if we can find a way to give him another power, we could find a way to restrict it.

[Kuzu]

You could just downplay Shadow's speed a bit so that Sonic's stands out a bit more.

[SenEDDtor Missile]

You could just downplay Shadow's speed a bit so that Sonic's stands out a bit more.

No need. Sonic's next game will give him the ability to go Super by blinking, so they can shove Shadow and every other character further into obscurity and justify not using them even further.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

You could just downplay Shadow's speed a bit so that Sonic's stands out a bit more.

I really don't think that's enough when he still has his powers. You could simply put a restriction on his powers, but that only solves a fragment of the problem. Downplaying or maximizing anything is just putting a bandage on the issue.

 

If you wanna get down to the heart of it, you could argue that this kind of problem was present before Shadow was even on the drawing board if you were to just compare Sonic to Tails and Knuckles. Now 3D games were a bit all over the place, and it's lucky for Sonic's case that he was the more interesting character to play as.

 

But when it comes to 2D games, Sonic might actually be passed over as far as platforming goes. For example, in the Classics, Tails could fly in S3&K which opened up much more opportunities for him when it came to platforming. If you jumped off a ledge and wanted to quickly correct yourself, Tails could simply fly right back from where he jumped off of and find another route that was much safer to travel. The same for Knuckles as he could glide slowly, and the moment you realize you're at a bottomless pit you could turn back around, cling to a wall and climb back up. Sure, Sonic had the shields that could allow him to dash forward, bounce on the surface, or double jump, but even then it didn't fully make up for the loss in platforming Sonic had by comparison to the other two. Of course, that depends on what the player is interested in, but as far as balance goes, Sonic was at a disadvantage platforming wise.

 

And this even transferred over to the Advance titles. Tails was probably the more popular and safer of the characters to use because he could reach ANYWHERE in the game's levels with little problems. Knuckles came second, and then characters like Sonic and Amy had to work especially hard to reach the areas you could easily get to with the latter two characters. And worse yet, if either Sonic or Amy (which ever you're playing as) missed their attempt, they'd have to start all over again, which would be even worse if they went over a segment that makes it impossible for them to go back to where they attempted it and try again. And this is before getting into the gamebreaker that is Cream.

 

Shadow's not the only character that Sonic's abilities look uninteresting next to, and I think it would be in Sonic's favor if we gave him another one that he can use to stand side-by-side so that, as the main character, he doesn't feel overshadowed ability-wise. And if the current formula is anything to go by when you're not given a lot of options, variety is the spice of life here, as we've been getting nothing but speedspeedspeed dominating everything else. Not that speed shouldn't be central, but we should be allowed more options for other abilities that could complement it. And unless anyone has another way to go about this whether gameplay-wise of character-wise as far as abilities go, I would rather suck up my pride and go the Chaos Power route. 

 

Granted, I think we should try to avoid becoming more like DBZ, but sometimes the option you may not like could be a benefit...or a detriment if you pulled it off badly. I'm not gonna be too one-sided about it.

Edited February 15, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Kuzu]

I really don't think that's enough when he still has his powers. You could simply put a restriction on his powers, but that only solves a fragment of the problem. Downplaying or maximizing anything is just putting a bandage on the issue.

 

If you wanna get down to the heart of it, you could argue that this kind of problem was present before Shadow was even on the drawing board if you were to just compare Sonic to Tails and Knuckles. Now 3D games were a bit all over the place, and it's lucky for Sonic's case that he was the more interesting character to play as.

 

But when it comes to 2D games, Sonic might actually be passed over as far as platforming goes. For example, in the Classics, Tails could fly in S3&K which opened up much more opportunities for him when it came to platforming. If you jumped off a ledge and wanted to quickly correct yourself, Tails could simply fly right back from where he jumped off of and find another route that was much safer to travel. The same for Knuckles as he could glide slowly, and the moment you realize you're at a bottomless pit you could turn back around, cling to a wall and climb back up. Sure, Sonic had the shields that could allow him to dash forward, bounce on the surface, or double jump, but even then it didn't fully make up for the loss in platforming Sonic had by comparison to the other two. Of course, that depends on what the player is interested in, but as far as balance goes, Sonic was at a disadvantage platforming wise.

 

And this even transferred over to the Advance titles. Tails was probably the more popular and safer of the characters to use because he could reach ANYWHERE in the game's levels with little problems. Knuckles came second, and then characters like Sonic and Amy had to work especially hard to reach the areas you could easily get to with the latter two characters. And worse yet, if either Sonic or Amy (which ever you're playing as) missed their attempt, they'd have to start all over again, which would be even worse if they went over a segment that makes it impossible for them to go back to where they attempted it and try again. And this is before getting into the gamebreaker that is Cream.

 

Shadow's not the only character that Sonic's abilities look uninteresting next to, and I think it would be in Sonic's favor if we gave him another one that he can use to stand side-by-side so that, as the main character, he doesn't feel overshadowed ability-wise. And if the current formula is anything to go by when you're not given a lot of options, variety is the spice of life here, as we've been getting nothing but speedspeedspeed dominating everything else. Not that speed shouldn't be central, but we should be allowed more options for other abilities that could complement it. And unless anyone has another way to go about this whether gameplay-wise of character-wise as far as abilities go, I would rather suck up my pride and go the Chaos Power route. 

 

Granted, I think we should try to avoid becoming more like DBZ, but sometimes the option you may not like could be a benefit...or a detriment if you pulled it off badly. I'm not gonna be too one-sided about it.

 

 

Thing is tho, Sonic still has unique abilities regardless; he's the only one with the instant shield and therefore the only one capable of killing the orbinauts in  Launch Base Zone without getting hurt in the process. That's not much, but it's still something he has over Tails & Knuckles, and if they did more things like that; giving him special properties that only he has to his current moveset then there's no need to add more abilities to him.

 

The advance games are a bit worse because unlike 3&K, they don't really give any benefit to using the other characters, you could just beat the entire game with Sonic if you felt like it. Even if the other characters have something over Sonic, if it doesn't really add anything to the game then it doesn't exactly make Sonic lesser doesn't it.

 

 

There are plenty of ways to make Sonic interesting without adding more arbitrary powers onto him. You can say that everyone's abilities makes Sonic uninteresting, but ever since the series went 3D, the other characters became more specialized. Knuckles is often considered slower than Sonic, and Tails is generally considered the weaker of the two, I don't see why you can't do this with Shadow if the problem is hat he has too much power. If you really wanna solve it, I'd say completely get rid of Shadow's chaos powers, except maybe Chaos Control, mostly because moves like Chaos Spear or Chaos Blast are more suited for combat based titles and with a fast paced title like Sonic can severely break the flow.

[Soniman]

If he was going to have Sonic Wind, I'd rather that explanation than chaos powers. But I still think if you need to come up with some elaborate explanation for how a character can do something, you should probably stop and think a bit on if it actually fits the character in the first place.

Sonic Heroes handled that pretty well with the Blue Tornado ability, in which Sonic moves around the enemy in a quick burst of speed in order to generate strong winds.

Edited February 15, 2013 by Soniman

[Kuzu]

Sonic Heroes handled that pretty well with he Blue Tornado ability, in which Sonic moves around the enemy in a quick burst of speed in order to generate strong winds.

 

Yeah, but there was no large explanation for it, we can just accept it as a natural power up

[Diogenes]

But when it comes to 2D games, Sonic might actually be passed over as far as platforming goes.

This is true, and Sonic could use a new move or two to help fix this, but I don't think they need to add an entirely new class of abilities to him to do so. I think it could largely be rebalanced just by giving him a nice, responsive walljump; it's not as powerful as flight or gliding/climbing in all situations, but it gives him the vertical movement he's sorely lacking and it's faster than the other two in places that are suited for it.

[AlphaRuby]

Cream and Cheese. They break bosses like they're nothing.

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

Thing is tho, Sonic still has unique abilities regardless; he's the only one with the instant shield and therefore the only one capable of killing the orbinauts in  Launch Base Zone without getting hurt in the process. That's not much, but it's still something he has over Tails & Knuckles, and if they did more things like that; giving him special properties that only he has to his current moveset then there's no need to add more abilities to him.

The orbinauts appear in only one level, and that has absolutely nothing to do with his platforming disadvantage compared to Tails and Knuckles.

 

And that insta-shield holds less value against the Orbinauts when all Tails and Knuckles have to do is simply jump over them and run away.

 

The advance games are a bit worse because unlike 3&K, they don't really give any benefit to using the other characters, you could just beat the entire game with Sonic if you felt like it. Even if the other characters have something over Sonic, if it doesn't really add anything to the game then it doesn't exactly make Sonic lesser doesn't it.

Except, as I already said. Sonic (and Amy) were at a platforming disadvantage in the Advances. The benefit to using Tails and Knuckles is that you could find secrets much easier than the other two, and you could keep finding them even if you messed up the first time compared to failing once and not being able to backtrack with the hedgehogs. And that goes especially for safer platforming when should they fall off a ledge, they are capable of finding a way to get back on it.

 

That's pretty big addition that makes Sonic seem pointless to play as in addition to them being capable of running fast.

 

There are plenty of ways to make Sonic interesting without adding more arbitrary powers onto him. You can say that everyone's abilities makes Sonic uninteresting, but ever since the series went 3D, the other characters became more specialized. Knuckles is often considered slower than Sonic, and Tails is generally considered the weaker of the two, I don't see why you can't do this with Shadow if the problem is hat he has too much power. If you really wanna solve it, I'd say completely get rid of Shadow's chaos powers, except maybe Chaos Control, mostly because moves like Chaos Spear or Chaos Blast are more suited for combat based titles and with a fast paced title like Sonic can severely break the flow.

Ever since the series went 3D, the other characters weren't as interesting to play as compared to Sonic, as I already said. Tails in SA1 would flat out break the level design being able to fly in some stages without hardly ever touching the ground, Knuckles/Rouge's treasure hunting wasn't that great, the mech stages were too clunky and boring to other people, Amy's pseudo-horror take on running away from Zero was meh, and so forth.

 

And as for your case with Shadow, if you take away his Chaos powers then you make the same problem of making Shadow completely redundant and more of a Sonic Clone. Essentially breaking one character to fix another, so you really haven't solved much of anything. It's not that he has so much power, it's that his abilities add onto what he already has and allows for more options. We're trying to add more options for Sonic, not hurt the other characters in the process.

Edited February 15, 2013 by ChaosSupremeSonic

[Spin Attaxx]

You have to admit though, the insta-shield RAPES bosses and some enemies.

[Kuzu]

The orbinauts appear in only one level, and that has absolutely nothing to do with his platforming disadvantage compared to Tails and Knuckles.

 

And that insta-shield holds less value against the Orbinauts when all Tails and Knuckles have to do is simply jump over them and run away.

Well considering we're talking about gameplay, I'd figure that's a pretty important aspect. If what we're talking about is Sonic's gameplay mechanics compared to the other characters then Sonic having an ability over his peers, even if it's specific to one enemy is still pretty significant. 

 

 

Except, as I already said. Sonic (and Amy) were at a platforming disadvantage in the Advances. The benefit to using Tails and Knuckles is that you could find secrets much easier than the other two, and you could keep finding them even if you messed up the first time compared to failing once and not being able to backtrack with the hedgehogs. And that goes especially for safer platforming when should they fall off a ledge, they are capable of finding a way to get back on it.

 

That's pretty big addition that makes Sonic seem pointless to play as in addition to them being capable of running fast.

Unless you're going out of your way to find said secrets, then their abilities add no more than Sonic or Amy's do. Yes, their abilities undoubtedly seem better suited to finding secrets, but otherwise you're no better off than if you were using Sonic unless the entire game has exclusive levels for them.

 

Ever since the series went 3D, the other characters weren't as interesting to play as compared to Sonic, as I already said. Tails in SA1 would flat out break the level design being able to fly in some stages without hardly ever touching the ground, Knuckles/Rouge's treasure hunting wasn't that great, the mech stages were too clunky and boring to other people, Amy's pseudo-horror take on running away from Zero was meh, and so forth.

 

Whether they're interesting is subjective because people have expressed differing opinions as far as genre roulette goes, but the fact is, they're different from Sonic and have varying abilities which emphasize that, and are no more capable than him. Sonic's the fastest and has speed levels, Tails had combat, and Knuckles had exploration. Now granted, it could have been done better, but the fact is Tails & Knuckles are no more capable than Sonic in those games.

 

And as for your case with Shadow, if you take away his Chaos powers then you make the same problem of making Shadow completely redundant and more of a Sonic Clone. Essentially breaking one character to fix another, so you really haven't solved much of anything. It's not that he has so much power, it's that his abilities add onto what he already has and allows for more options. We're trying to add more options for Sonic, not hurt the other characters in the process.

 

If Luigi & Zero can play similar to Mario & X respectively while stlll having their own style of play, I don't understand why the same can't be done for Shadow. Nobody's saying take a way his chaos powers, but as they are now they don't serve much purpose gameplay wise and make him grossly overpowered. I see two things that could be done with Shadow; A. They strip him of his Chaos Powers and give him his own style of play similar to that of Sonic's, but special properties to differentiate him. B. They keep his chaos powers, but downplay his speed so that he doesn't make Sonic seem so redundant. 

 

Either way, I think the problem here is the amount of power Shadow has, and not what Sonic lacks.