Rebooting the Franchise: Good or Bad?

[Nepenthe]

Well if you stick your fancy new electronics in a grimy old cabinet they're just going to get gunked up and choke to death on dust and spiders. You gotta clean that shit out too or your 360's gonna red ring, and then what will you do?

And anyone can fuck up. If we're so terrified of the possibility of fucking up we shouldn't even own electronics, or potentially flammable objects. We should simply concern ourselves with Small Rock and Damp Leaf, as we're apparently too terrified of accidentally killing ourselves should we attempt to interact with anything else.

The cabinet in my metaphor is clean, sturdy, and well-kept.

Anyway, you're using that same strawman Ragna did earlier; I'm not terrified of change so much as I'm bothering to note that the chances of change in actual practice resulting in a bad outcome over a good one are pretty good. Why? Because we've had anywhere from one to three reboots before (SA1, 06, and Unleashed) and the writing of this series has been consistently terrible regardless. That makes me believe rebooting is a non-solution to the issue of terrible writing. Terrible writing is the cause of terrible writing. Therefore, hire better scenario planners and work Warren and Ken.

I also continue to disagree that the actual foundation of the canon is solid, especially since it continues to conflict with your other claim that the canon is simultaneously unimportant because nothing is elaborated upon or brought up later. Shadow being an alien or Blaze's issues or there being alternate dimensions inside storybooks does not inherently limit the writing potential of this series or make the actual canon rules terrible or impenetrable to write with in mind, which in turn renders even less reason for there to be a reboot.

[---]

We should simply concern ourselves with Small Rock and Damp Leaf, as we're apparently too terrified of accidentally killing ourselves should we attempt to interact with anything else.

Ironically you could choke on the small rock and the leaf could have a mosquito with a deadly disease on it

[Soniman]

I just dont feel like throwing everything ive come to know about the series for 20 years out the window and be forced to re-live old stories that may or may not be better than the original is a viable option at all when they could just simply write shit better (as Nepenthe eloquentley put it) especially considering the psuedo fresh start Generations ended on.

I want new and fresh ideas from here on out. Not backtracking.

[Kuzu]

Of course it doesn't mean ShtH doesn't exist, but in the context of this particular discussion, acting as if ShtH has had any tangible impact on canon down the road doesn't readily support any necessity to write it and other games you don't like out of existence completly, because the fact remains that its objective effects on canon are non-existent. You really are as free to ignore ShtH as I ignore Spinball for all the relevance it has today. This ultimately reflects my whole stance on rebooting this franchise: there is little to nothing to actively write against or around in future stories, so rebooting currently stands as a non-solution that has the potential to screw up as many things as it solves, as it ironically has before.

Which is what is probably a problem for this series, there is very little continuity, events hardly have any impact and are quickly forgotten after they happen. If the series is to have better storytelling, events need to start being connected, and the events so far in the series are quite frankly, crap and not exactly something to build a stable and good continuity from.

[Nepenthe]

First of all, I don't agree that the writing of a series depends upon referencing things in the past heavily, if at all. Again, I view Sonic more as a serial that places more focus on the in-moment action and character interactions than continuous conflict that spans multiple entries. Eggman or the Monster of the Day will cause trouble and be defeated in the end of the game. This is fine. If Sega got their shit together and just start writing better adventures, I'd be perfectly happy regardless of whether or not they were self-contained. But if you disagree with that entirely, I've already stated the solution to the issue you've outlined: Start writing new events that aren't crap and start referencing them in later games.

[Kuzu]

I just dont feel like throwing everything ive come to know about the series for 20 years out the window and be forced to re-live old stories that may or may not be better than the original is a viable option at all when they could just simply write shit better (as Nepenthe eloquentley put it) especially considering the psuedo fresh start Generations ended on.

I want new and fresh ideas from here on out. Not backtracking.

And I want shit to make sense and be easy to follow, not this jumbled up mess they call continuity. Writing shit better doesn't erase all of the crap they've done in the past, and for shit to be better they'd either have reference their past events or just ignore them entirely, and if they're going to do the latter you may as well just start over.

What are we losing really? Characters who are at worst two-dimensional, or completely one-note walking stereotypes with no character development, a continuity that's filled with inconsistencies and some plotholes, and stories that are hardly if ever connected aside from the characters involved in them. That's not exactly something to be proud of.

First of all, I don't agree that the writing of a series depends upon referencing things in the past heavily, if at all. Again, I view Sonic more as a serial that places more focus on the in-moment action and character interactions than continuous conflict that spans multiple entries. Eggman or the Monster of the Day will cause trouble and be defeated in the end of the game. This is fine. If Sega got their shit together and just start writing better adventures, I'd be perfectly happy regardless of whether or not they were self-contained. But if you disagree with that entirely, I've already stated the solution to the issue you've outlined: Start writing new events that aren't crap and start referencing them in later games.

Once again, if you're going to do that, just go ahead with the reboot. If you're just going to ignore past events anyway and make something new, how is a reboot any worse?

[Diogenes]

The cabinet in my metaphor is clean, sturdy, and well-kept.

I thought you said it stood for the canon.

Anyway, you're using that same strawman Ragna did earlier; I'm not terrified of change so much as I'm bothering to note that the chances of change in actual practice resulting in a bad outcome over a good one are pretty good.

What's the difference? Regardless, fixing the writing requires change, whether or not a reboot is part of it.

Why? Because we've had anywhere from one to three reboots before (SA1, 06, and Unleashed)

None of these are reboots.

and the writing of this series has been consistently terrible regardless. That makes me believe rebooting is a non-solution to the issue of terrible writing.

What it should tell you (if it were true in the first place) is that it alone doesn't solve the problem, which is something no one here is going to disagree with. That doesn't mean it's useless or that it isn't worth doing.

I just dont feel like throwing everything ive come to know about the series for 20 years out the window

At this point what's the difference?

and be forced to re-live old stories

Why do people think a reboot is just shitting out the same old stories again? Yeah you'd need to reintroduce returning characters and elements, but that does not mean just writing the same story again.

that may or may not be better than the original

Going on pure luck it'd probably be an improvement.

[Nepenthe]

Once again, if you're going to do that, just go ahead with the reboot. If you're just going to ignore past events anyway and make something new, how is a reboot any worse?

On a similar token: If we're already ignoring past events with every single game, I don't see why you are so put off with what little current canon we have. Since none of it matters, why bother erasing everything?

I thought you said it stood for the canon.

The actual long-standing canon, the underlying structure of the series, is fine to me. The individual storytelling is not.

What's the difference? Regardless, fixing the writing requires change, whether or not a reboot is part of it.

The difference is that not all change is equal, thus refuting any of my arguments on the basis of me being terrified of change is a strawman. But for extra clarification, I find rebooting absolutely useless in this particular situation, not terrifying in the least.

None of these are reboots.

Why not?

What it should tell you (if it were true in the first place) is that it alone doesn't solve the problem, which is something no one here is going to disagree with. That doesn't mean it's useless or that it isn't worth doing.

I've already gone on to describe why rebooting is also useless multiple times. To reiterate, a reboot is useless because we have described most of the events in the games as irrelevant insofar as they have no impact on the games or characters after they happen. In fact, these games are so disconnected from one another that one could further argue that we've actually been seeing the effects of an actual wiping of the slate with almost every single title, and lo and behold, the writing still blows. These things are not the problem, thus rebooting is not the solution. It is useless.

[Diogenes]

The actual long-standing canon, the underlying structure of the series, is fine to me. The individual storytelling is not.

The ladder is fine, it's just that all the rungs are rotten.

What is "canon" if it doesn't come from the individual stories?

Why not?

Because they follow from the games that came before. SA is a direct extension of elements from S3&K; the broad strokes of the ancient echidnas' downfall come straight from the Japanese Sonic 3 manual. And for all of them, the returning characters inherited their characterization, relationships, and history from previous games (even the limited amount from the Genesis games in SA's case).

I've already gone on to describe why rebooting is also useless multiple times. To reiterate, a reboot is useless because we have described most of the events in the games as irrelevant insofar as they have no impact on the games or characters after they happen. In fact, these games are so disconnected from one another that one could further argue that we've actually been seeing the effects of an actual wiping of the slate with almost every single title, and lo and behold, the writing still blows. These things are not the problem, thus rebooting is not the solution. It is useless.

Again, this is only proof that a reboot is not a full solution. If you press the reset button then do the same thing as before, of course you're going to get the same results. Are you going to say that, because getting new writers didn't automatically solve everything, that there's no point in considering different writers? 'cause that's the kind of logic you're using here.

[Chaos Warp]

Suggested it before, gonna suggest it again: partial reboot. A game/story arc that cleans up potholes and solidifies everything, but doesn't get rid of the whole thing.

[Soniman]

And I want shit to make sense and be easy to follow, not this jumbled up mess they call continuity.

I really don't think it's quite the mess you're making it out to be. It's Sonic the Hedgehog, not Metal Gear Solid. It's not some huge mass of interconnected extremely detailed stories with a shit ton of history. It's pretty damn simple if you take a step back, honestly how is it in any shape or form "hard to follow", that's just a very gross overstatement.

Writing shit better doesn't erase all of the crap they've done in the past, and for shit to be better they'd either have reference their past events or just ignore them entirely, and if they're going to do the latter you may as well just start over.

What are we losing really? Characters who are at worst two-dimensional, or completely one-note walking stereotypes with no character development,

Something that would not be solved instantly by having a reboot, but would be solved by simply writing the damn characters better. Having a reboot would accomplish nothing for any of the characters, they could still be as underdeveloped and pointless as they were before.

] a continuity that's filled with inconsistencies and some plotholes, and stories that are hardly if ever connected aside from the characters involved in them. That's not exactly something to be proud of.

Why do the stories have to be deeply interconnected filled with massive continuity, what exactly wrong with them being self contained? I mean the occasional continuity nod is fine, but I don't see why some people want a multi plot epic that spans several games.

Once again, if you're going to do that, just go ahead with the reboot. If you're just going to ignore past events anyway and make something new, how is a reboot any worse?

It destroys everything because of easily solvable reasons.

Suggested it before, gonna suggest it again: partial reboot. A game/story arc that cleans up potholes and solidifies everything, but doesn't get rid of the whole thing.

At this point what's the difference?

The 20+ fucking years of history being shitted away for reasons I believe can be easily fixed in the now?

Edited September 22, 2012 by Soniman

[Chaos Warp]

That didn't really clear up any plotholes. It did try to have a solidified universe but they kinda forgot about that didn't they?

[Soniman]

That didn't really clear up any plotholes. It did try to have a solidified universe but they kinda forgot about that didn't they?

No...

The same planet design from Unleashed can be seen in Colors

[Diogenes]

The 20+ fucking years of history being shitted away for reasons I believe can be easily fixed in the now?

The 20+ years of history that never come up yet are absolutely vital yet mostly suck.

Serious question: Is there something about this discussion that fucks with people's brains? Because the longer it goes on the more it starts to sound like crazyass doublespeak.

The same planet design from Unleashed can be seen in Colors

Isn't there an entirely different one in S4, tho'? Edited September 22, 2012 by Diogenes

[Chaos Warp]

No...

The same planet design from Unleashed can be seen in Colors

Well, you got me there. Knowing Sonic Team, the next game will probably have an entirely different artstyle though.............

[Nepenthe]

The ladder is fine, it's just that all the rungs are rotten.

What is "canon" if it doesn't come from the individual stories?

Canon is as much the undelying rules and history of the universe as it is the individual stories that are based on it, which I maintain is fine. I see no reason to throw away the basic things like Sonic's characterization as a cocky nomadic teenager, the general storytelling structure of the series in that he will always defeat Eggman, and recurring plot devices like the Chaos Emeralds because you're unhappy with plot developments you self-describe as irrelevant anyway.

Because they follow from the games that came before.

To follow from something directly in some ways does not disclude a work from being considered reboot, hence the distinction between soft and hard reboots. SA1 is most definitely the former because it has enough tonal and character changes to visibly separate it from the classics, especially if you're a western canon advocate.

Again, this is only proof that a reboot is not a full solution. If you press the reset button then do the same thing as before, of course you're going to get the same results. Are you going to say that, because getting new writers didn't automatically solve everything, that there's no point in considering different writers? 'cause that's the kind of logic you're using here.

The bolded is actually so irrelevant to my logic flow and frankly confusing considering my actual argument as to be kind of insane. First, I've actually advocated for better writers multiple times in and out of this thread. Second, you're placing hard rebooting and writers with talent on the same level of importance in the context of solutions to bad writing. A hard reboot doesn't guarantee better writing if you still have bad writers. Better writers absolutely guarantee better writing than bad writers in some form, which we've gotten from Warren and Ken as their characterization of the cast and playfulness with the material is absolutely spot-on. Regardless, I'm going to reiterate my argument one more time in the simplest way I can possibly put it, because I'm kind of flabbergasted right now that you think I mean what you just wrote in that post:

"The Sonic series has terrible writing because it tends to have awful plotting, dropped tangents and second acts of storytelling, and bad acting.

Therefore, the solution is to work towards creating better stories and characterization.

Necessary efforts towards this goal include hiring better writers (which they've done), hiring better voice actors and voice directors (which they've done), hiring better scenario planners if necessary, and ultimately ignoring criticism that the series cannot handle any narrative depth beyond what was seen in Colors and Generations so as to facilitate better output from the writers, scenario planners, voice actors, and voice directors.

A hard reboot is not considered a necessary effort because nearly all of the more disagreeable plot elements that would disappear with a hard reboot do not present objective obstacles that cause the above reasons for the terrible writing. Thus, it is a non-solution."

[SIXTH-RATE SOMA]

ENOUGH METAPHORS FOR CRYING OUT LOUD

Alright. So let me get this straight:

In one corner we have the Pro-Rebooters, who are pretty comfortable with wiping a bunch of bad games from continuity should it mean solid world-building and good writing. Colors is seen as an unfortunate casualty in this scenario.

In the other corner we have the Anti-Booters, who claim that, because Sonic games have less continuity than the Simpsons, we shouldn't even need a reboot to have better writing. They are under the impression that better world-building and such aren't worth the cost of erasing a bunch of bad games from continuity am I missing something? some of Sonic's finest post-Classic outings, which I guess means Colors and Unleashed or somethin'.

Personally I'd be okay with a soft reboot. Like, just erase stuff after S3&K or SA2 and continue down the "candy-colored fantasy" route instead of the "wtf guns and military" route. Though I should say, I can only advocate this route if Sega gets an ounce of ambition or creativity with their new projects. If we're just boosting2win through shallow cookie-cutter plots again then count me out.

[Kuzu]

I really don't think it's quite the mess you're making it out to be. It's Sonic the Hedgehog, not Metal Gear Solid. It's not some huge mass of interconnected extremely detailed stories with a shit ton of history. It's pretty damn simple if you take a step back, honestly how is it in any shape or form "hard to follow", that's just a very gross overstatement.

That really doesn't make it any less bad.

Something that would not be solved instantly by having a reboot, but would be solved by simply writing the damn characters better. Having a reboot would accomplish nothing for any of the characters, they could still be as underdeveloped and pointless as they were before.

And have they done this? No, they have not. If "writing the characters better" is such a simple solution, then why the flying fuck hasn't it been done despite having new writers and everything. Really, you're making this sound like "All they gotta do" is write better like it's just a walk in the park.

Why do the stories have to be deeply interconnected filled with massive continuity, what exactly wrong with them being self contained? I mean the occasional continuity nod is fine, but I don't see why some people want a multi plot epic that spans several games.

Nobody is asking for DC levels of continuity, but I honestly don't think the actions the characters take having consequences later isn't such a bad thing, less we end up with shit like the "Moon" again.

It destroys everything because of easily solvable reasons.

Or it potentially builds something new, I honestly don't know you're associating Reboot=RUINED FOREVER, and you're always the one trying to be the optimist, but for some reason a reboot scares you despite the fact that it could potentially bring something more to the franchise that it's lacking at the moment.

[Soniman]

That really doesn't make it any less bad.

That wasn't what I was trying to imply but okay.

And have they done this? No, they have not. If "writing the characters better" is such a simple solution, then why the flying fuck hasn't it been done despite having new writers and everything. Really, you're making this sound like "All they gotta do" is write better like it's just a walk in the park.

It's a much easier solution that rebooting everything and then hoping for the best.

Nobody is asking for DC levels of continuity, but I honestly don't think the actions the characters take having consequences later isn't such a bad thing, less we end up with shit like the "Moon" again.

This is a just and fair criticism......but I just don't think we need reboot to solve things like this.

Or it potentially builds something new, I honestly don't know you're associating Reboot=RUINED FOREVER, and you're always the one trying to be the optimist, but for some reason a reboot scares you despite the fact that it could potentially bring something more to the franchise that it's lacking at the moment.

Im not, I'm just saying that I personally believe that whatever improvements a reboot could potentially bring to the series, can already be done in it's current state.

And believe or not, I actually am trying to be the optimist here, believing there are things actually worth salvaging in this series rather than going the "everything is currently terrible, so lets start everything over again" route.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Soniman

[Kuzu]

That wasn't what I was trying to imply but okay.

.....You said "The Continuity isn't that bad" I said "Yes it is" not really something hard to understand.

It's a much easier solution that rebooting everything and then hoping for the best.

Why?

This is a just and fair criticism......but I just don't think we need reboot to solve things like this.

Nobody is saying a reboot will solve everything, but it's viable option to consider instead of everyone being so goddamn afraid of change.

Im not, I'm just saying that I personally believe that whatever improvements a reboot could potentially bring to the series, can already be done in it's current state.

Which has not yet happened, and does not seem to be happening if Generations is anything to go by, so how's that working out for ya?

And believe or not, I actually am trying to be the optimist here, believing there are things actually worth salvaging in this series rather than going the "everything is currently terrible, so lets start everything over again" route.

You still have not said what's worth salvaging, because I'm really having a hard time seeing anything of value with the current narrative and portrayals of the characters, which I already said.

[Nepenthe]

Which has not yet happened, and does not seem to be happening if Generations is anything to go by, so how's that working out for ya?

To dismiss an idea that hinges entirely on the actions of a third party as worthless because said third party hasn't even attempted it yet is not only ludicrous, but amazingly short-sighted and ironic, considering Sonic Team's current apathy towards canon means they sure as hell aren't going to be rebooting everything and starting over from scratch either, so how's that working out for ya?

[CrownSlayers Shadow]

One value of the narrative is that it doesn't take everything too seriously. It's almost akin to Ratchet and Clank. The problem? It takes itself so unseriously that there's not much intensity to the threat that goes on. Eggman just made a god his bitch after so many game of being put on their leashes himself, and Sonic doesn't act like that's a huge threat in itself.

The value of the characters is the archetypes...and that's about it. Even then, they come off as hollow for it.

Reboot is such a nasty word to some ever since Skylanders and DmC, so I can understand the fear for change here. However, it goes without saying that I still don't think "Reboot" is the right word to use for whomever's using it. Okay, somethings we can do without like ShTH, but in terms of how things are currently, I don't think knocking down a whole wall just to complete it is that necessary except in the most extreme cases, and this isn't that extreme.

Or maybe I'm just not grasping the whole picture of what's being argued about here.

[Kuzu]

To dismiss an idea that hinges entirely on the actions of a third party as worthless because said third party hasn't even attempted it yet is not only ludicrous

Ludicrous how? I never dismissed the idea of them writing better with the current canon, just that it's something they don't seem to attempting to do at the moment, and are actively going against it.

considering Sonic Team's current apathy towards canon means they sure as hell aren't going to be rebooting everything and starting over from scratch either, so how's that working out for ya?

Nobody is saying they will so why are you acting like I did?

Both you and Soniman seem to be under the impression that I'm saying a reboot is the only way to save the series, when I said no such thing, it's stupid to think that. I said a reboot is a viable option, and has it's benefits as opposed to trying to make sense of the current, jumbled up canon.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Ragna the Bloodedge

[Indigo Rush]

Uhm, wow.

How about a compromise.

We "reboot" the series with Sonic 1, CD, 2, 3, Knuckles, Adventure 1&2, Heroes, Rush, Unleashed and Colors as the established canon. All other games are forgotten. Any missing details that need to be brought up can be "filled in" later on. (Shadow's return in Heroes, how Sonic and Silver meet for example).

All of the Shadow/2006/Chronicles/Riders/Rivals fluff is gone. Characters aren't necessarily removed. The more important and better received games are canon (Unleashed being the only 'controversial' one). Fill in the blank between Knuckles and Adventure with however many Classic Sonic games you want, and new Sonic games can expand on the story and world after Colors.

So it'd just be a 'partial' reboot. I mean, that's what I'd do.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Indigo Rush

[Jack / Joker]

If there was a reboot, it could potentially fix the series due to how much the bad canon outweighs the good canon... But it's Iizuka and Sonic Team we're talking about here. It's very make or break, it could be the solution if done right, but I think there's a 60% chance it will fail, and everything will become fucked up beyond repair. They're not quite good and experienced enough to restart from scratch IMO... But on the other hand... after seeing Colors and Generations, I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out well. To make Sonic Colors a mere 4 years after Sonic 06 is something I doubt just anyone could do. Either way I'd be both surprised and unsurprised at the same time. :-/