Rebooting the Franchise: Good or Bad?

[Your Vest Friend]

Well, Commander Tower did leak out of that game

Commander who?

[Nepenthe]

Don't really see a reason to keep it around either...

But it's irrelevant and thus effectively gone already. You and others bitch about ShtH more than Sega actually bothers to reference it in canon. As with Sonic 06, you continually perpetuate its existence and thus make it more relevant than need be. It's 2012, almost seven whole years after the fact. Move on already.

Well, Commander Tower did leak out of that game, and Mephilies entire schtick in 06 was to essentially pull Shadow back down into the muck that he left behind in his previous journey...

Oh yeah, that Commander guy. Forgot about him; but hey, Chronicles isn't canon anyway so nyeh. xP I also wouldn't really count Mephiles' shenanigans as true direct reference to ShtH, especially if we consider the actual canon pathway.

I think it would benefit them to write it (and many other things) out of continuity because I want them to care about continuity, and if they do start caring about continuity they'll realize this series' canon is built largely on meandering, inconsistent, stupid shit.

Saying the series is "built on" stupidity implies relevance which almost none of the disagreeable story aspects in the main canon actually are either through lack of reference later on, lack of ultimate impact on the canon in general, self-obliteration, or being actively discounted from canon by a Sega official. As such, expending time and money actually addressing them effectively solves none of the big issues except perhaps to make people who dislike these things feel vindicated that Sega actually did waste the time.

[KHCast]

Uh...who is that exactly?

Also...

Well, Miru is kinda fixated on Blaze, to the point it can get a little creepy...

that's dante from devil may cry.

[Sega DogTagz]

Commander who?

Head Honcho over at G.U.N.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Sega DogTagz

[Your Vest Friend]

Head Honcho over at G.U.N.

Huh? He doesn't have a name, does he? Unless it's exclusive to Archie.

[Kuzu]

But it's irrelevant and thus effectively gone already. You and others bitch about ShtH more than Sega actually bothers to reference it in canon. As with Sonic 06, you continually perpetuate its existence and thus make it more relevant than need be. It's 2012, almost seven whole years after the fact. Move on already.

Last I recall, we only bring up Shadow when the it's the subject at hand so I don't know how we"perpetuate" it's existence when other people are the ones who keep making the "What do you think of Shadow" topic every two to three months. Sega don't acknowledge it because they know they dun fucked up, but just because they don't reference it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, its there, it's apart of their history and it's going to be a stain that's never going to be removed no matter how much time passes, and it's just as viable to talk about how bad it is, or how good/bad Unleashed was, or how great Sonic 3 & K was.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Ragna the Bloodedge

[Sega DogTagz]

Huh? He doesn't have a name, does he? Unless it's exclusive to Archie.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure Archie made it up out of thin air when they started using him.

[Diogenes]

Saying the series is "built on" stupidity implies relevance which almost none of the disagreeable story aspects in the main canon actually are either through lack of reference later on,

But that's what I'm saying; I want this to be the kind of series that does reference and build on past events. But if they do that with things as they are, there's barely anything worth referencing, it's a tangle of bad stories and squandered opportunities.

As such, expending time and money actually addressing them effectively solves none of the big issues except perhaps to make people who dislike these things feel vindicated that Sega actually did waste the time.

It gets rid of bad things and potentially replaces them with good things, things that can then be used to support further good things.

[Your Vest Friend]

But that's what I'm saying; I want this to be the kind of series that does reference and build on past events. But if they do that with things as they are, there's barely anything worth referencing, it's a tangle of bad stories and squandered opportunities.

Looking at Generations, I'd say that they plain don't want to, regardless of quality.

[Kuzu]

Looking at Generations, I'd say that they plain don't want to, regardless of quality.

To be fair, at this point they've just said fuck all to story and continuity, but we're talking hypothetically if they did start caring.

[Soniman]

I thought the whole point of Generations was refrencing past continuity?

[Kuzu]

I thought the whole point of Generations was refrencing past continuity?

They did a really shitty job at it, there was like only two or three references to past games, and they were negligible comments at best. In a game like Generations, I expected Call Backs, Jokes in reference to past games, and just an overall more structured story.

[Soniman]

But the fact that the entire game was basically one big call back, as in going through several levels of Sonic's history. It's at least acknowledges the fact that games like SA1, Unleashed, and the classics, actually happened. Even if they did do a poor job of portraying it through the actual story and dialogue.

[Nepenthe]

Last I recall, we only bring up Shadow when the it's the subject at hand so I don't know how we"perpetuate" it's existence when other people are the ones who keep making the "What do you think of Shadow" topic every two to three months. Sega don't acknowledge it because they know they dun fucked up, but just because they don't reference it doesn't mean it doesn't exist, its there, it's apart of their history and it's going to be a stain that's never going to be removed no matter how much time passes, and it's just as viable to talk about how bad it is, or how good/bad Unleashed was, or how great Sonic 3 & K was.

Of course it doesn't mean ShtH doesn't exist, but in the context of this particular discussion, acting as if ShtH has had any tangible impact on canon down the road doesn't readily support any necessity to write it and other games you don't like out of existence completly, because the fact remains that its objective effects on canon are non-existent. You really are as free to ignore ShtH as I ignore Spinball for all the relevance it has today. This ultimately reflects my whole stance on rebooting this franchise: there is little to nothing to actively write against or around in future stories, so rebooting currently stands as a non-solution that has the potential to screw up as many things as it solves, as it ironically has before.

(Also, topics need respondants to survive. Everyone who has talked about these games are as just as much to blame for the perpetuation of their relevance in the current, still-unflattering view of the franchise as the people who actually start them. xP)

But that's what I'm saying; I want this to be the kind of series that does reference and build on past events. But if they do that with things as they are, there's barely anything worth referencing, it's a tangle of bad stories and squandered opportunities.

Then you start writing good stories now and building upon them.

It gets rid of bad things and potentially replaces them with good things, things that can then be used to support further good things.

Again, you can do this with the current canon, literally starting with the next game, without having to go back and waste time and potentially waste money on untangling everything in the first place.

[Diogenes]

But the fact that the entire game was basically one big call back, as in going through several levels of Sonic's history. It's at least acknowledges the fact that games like SA1, Unleashed, and the classics, actually happened. Even if they did do a poor job of portraying it through the actual story and dialogue.

"These games happened" isn't really much of a statement. Especially when they drop Crisis City in, which no one should remember, and no one comments on this unfamiliar post-apocalyptic city dropped in the middle of their trip down memory lane, except I think Blaze remembers it? But then they've basically ignored any connection she had to '06 in every other game, so...????

Again, you can do this with the current canon, literally starting with the next game, without having to go back and waste time and potentially waste money on untangling everything in the first place.

How do you get rid of the stupid parts of Shadow's origin while still keeping the current canon? How do you replace it with something not dumb, that can be used to support future not-dumb stories, while keeping the current canon? That would be wasting time and money trying to untangle everything. Rebooting isn't trying to untangle it, it's throwing it out and doing it right from the start. It's looking at that mass of wires shoved behind your TV and/or computer and saying "fuck that, I'm buying new wires" (or unplugging everything and setting it up cleanly, I dunno this metaphor is not that great). Edited September 22, 2012 by Diogenes

[Nepenthe]

I will give you a better metaphor: Rebooting the Sonic franchise is like approaching your entertainment set-up made up of an analog TV with strange static, an Atari Jaguar, and a VHS player that may or may not decide to eat a tape that day, but focusing instead on the tangled wires behind the cabinet and deciding to do something about those. It may be a good thing to tidy the cords up but it ultimately doesn't solve the bigger issue staring you directly in the face- those being the outdated and terrible electronics. And it's ultimately only as good a gesture as your electrician abilities, as it's very possible you're incompetent enough to potentially start a fire in the process due to wrenching on the cords to untangle them and burn down a significant portion of the house, in which case you've caused more damage than was initially there in the first place and probably should've just left it alone anyway.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Diogenes]

If we're extending the metaphor to the devices themselves, they're as much up for replacement as anything.

And just continuing on from where we are is continuing to use those busted old devices, and buying a bunch of new tapes to put in that VHS player.

And if your wiring's fucked up, you get someone who knows how to fix it to do so, you don't just continue on and pray it doesn't burst into flames.

[Nepenthe]

The devices in my metaphor are analogous to the writing, what I consider to be the actual problem, not the canon. Subsequently the canon would instead be the cabinet the devices are sitting in. The action of rebooting would be analogous to untangling the cords: a non-solution. Getting an electrician to untangle the cords, while it may produce better clarity in the devices, subsequently doesn't really go towards solving the problem of updating electronics in the same way rebooting doesn't inherently go towards solving the problem of better storytelling.

And the electrician can still fuck up anyway.

Edited September 22, 2012 by Nepenthe

[Soniman]

This metaphor overload has me complelety lost.

[Komodin]

This metaphor overload has me complelety lost.

Here's the Terse Version: Rebooting the continuity does not necessarily mean that the actual storytelling will improve.

[Diogenes]

Well if you stick your fancy new electronics in a grimy old cabinet they're just going to get gunked up and choke to death on dust and spiders. You gotta clean that shit out too or your 360's gonna red ring, and then what will you do?

And anyone can fuck up. If we're so terrified of the possibility of fucking up we shouldn't even own electronics, or potentially flammable objects. We should simply concern ourselves with Small Rock and Damp Leaf, as we're apparently too terrified of accidentally killing ourselves should we attempt to interact with anything else.

[Kuzu]

Here's the Terse Version: Rebooting the continuity does not necessarily mean that the actual storytelling will improve.

Keeping it the way it is isn't guaranteeing success considering Sonic Team don't seem to give a damn about continuity at this point. Edited September 22, 2012 by Ragna the Bloodedge

[Soniman]

And they magically will if they decide to reebot?

[Kuzu]

And they magically will if they decide to reebot?

Well it gives them a fresh start so why not?

Edited September 22, 2012 by Ragna the Bloodedge

[Diogenes]

No, nothing will magically do anything. But clearing out the shit and writing a more solid base, rather than trying to build on the slapdash 20+ years we have now, is one component of writing a better Sonic series.