Pokemon Anime General Discussion

[8ther]

1 hour ago, Dejimon11 said:

Hahahahaha oh it get's worse the scene where Ash and Greninja were screaming in pain was changed to look unconscious 

And here's Greninja's

 

 

Didn't see the episode itself but looking at these still, this doesn't seem like more that the standard "redrawn censorship" i think OLM redid these scenes for international broadcasts.

[Soniman]

6 hours ago, QuantumEdge said:

As utterly adorable as that is, I really hope they're planning to do SuMo's story some real justice here.  There's so much potential to mine from it and expand further with the anime.  Considering their heightened ambition with Team Flare, I have a good feeling about it.  This could be a mere inkling of a really good tale.

After XY getting shit ratings they might be discouraged from trying it again but here's hoping they do SM justice and don't "Team Plasma"  it

[Dejimon11]

4 minutes ago, Soniman said:

After XY getting shit ratings they might be discouraged from trying it again but here's hoping they do SM justice and don't "Team Plasma"  it

I still can't believe that the series got terrible ratings especially compared to BW. 

[Big Panda]

I reccon XY having lower ratings than BW is more down to the fact that BW didn't have Yo-Kai Watch to compete with.

[Dejimon11]

That is true but considering how well the show was doing in the rest of the world since Yokai Watch didn't catch fire outside of Japan it would suck if they didn't want to try and have an ongoing plot again not to mention how well revived the game are because of it's plot.  

[E-122-Psi]

I heard the anime gets lower ratings per series so it was of the norm for XY to plummet a little.

I have heard other claims like the Japanese didn't like the shonen action focus or thought Ash was bland though I haven't got much source on that (it would make sense though looking at Sun/Moon, seeing how unpopular serious Team Rocket were there, it can be suggested the show listens to fans).

I prefer Sun/Moon's current more subtle approach really. XY(Z) had fun moments but too often was a pretentious hype train it couldn't live up to, adrenaline over substance too often.

[Big Panda]

Final Generations episode chose the best story to go out on:

 

[Dejimon11]

4 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I heard the anime gets lower ratings per series so it was of the norm for XY to plummet a little.

I have heard other claims like the Japanese didn't like the shonen action focus or thought Ash was bland though I haven't got much source on that (it would make sense though looking at Sun/Moon, seeing how unpopular serious Team Rocket were there, it can be suggested the show listens to fans).

I prefer Sun/Moon's current more subtle approach really. XY(Z) had fun moments but too often was a pretentious hype train it couldn't live up to, adrenaline over substance too often.

What does that even mean? 

[Waveshocker Sigma]

6 hours ago, Ernest-Panda-Baring-Gifts said:

Final Generations episode chose the best story to go out on:

 

Truly a moving encounter of re-encounters.

[Soniman]

On 12/23/2016 at 0:35 PM, Dejimon11 said:

What does that even mean? 

it aimed high and missed sometimes as opposed to not aiming high at all which I guess is preferable

And adrenaline over substance means...I guess having good battlees and cool moments?? Im not really sure how the anime is improved by taking those things away (in fact one of my few problems with SM currentley is the lack of any really battles outside TR right now)

[E-122-Psi]

9 hours ago, Soniman said:

it aimed high and missed sometimes as opposed to not aiming high at all which I guess is preferable

And adrenaline over substance means...I guess having good battlees and cool moments?? Im not really sure how the anime is improved by taking those things away (in fact one of my few problems with SM currentley is the lack of any really battles outside TR right now)

Oh yeah, because XYZ didn't spam TR 'battles' over proper ones, did it? And Serena was such an awesome and fun to watch battler. And I never get sick of hearing intricate strategies like saying "Dodge!" a billion times. There totally weren't umpteen times the heroes were rescued by plot armour either.  XYZ had about the same level of competence writing battles and action scenes as the previous series, if not worse (even BW at least had half way challenging TR the whole of it's run over repetitive curb stomp fests), just XYZ was good at making them look very flashy.

There's more to the show than just trying to look superficially badass and 'epic' and making promises it can't keep ("Yeaahhh, Ash is gonna totally win the league this time, and AshGreninja is gonna make new meaning to the anime, and Serena's gonna be Ash's soulmate, things are so definitely not gonna return to status quo completely by the end of this series"). Sun/Moon, while maybe not battle heavy, has still had some intense moments, but it knows it can get as much from settling down and focusing on personalities and other things. Yeah, it overdoes on the slapstick a bit, but it doesn't feel as one track focused on that as XYZ did with 'actionizing' the show. And having a more laid back promotion means people can go in focusing on the positives than being disappointed by too high expectations XYZ tried to promote.

I'm not saying Sun/Moon can't plummet horribly at this point, but it is eight episodes in.

[Soniman]

13 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

Oh yeah, because XYZ didn't spam TR 'battles' over proper ones, did it? And Serena was such an awesome and fun to watch battler. And I never get sick of hearing intricate strategies like saying "Dodge!" a billion times. There totally weren't umpteen times the heroes were rescued by plot armour either.  XYZ had about the same level of competence writing battles and action scenes as the previous series, if not worse (even BW at least had half way challenging TR the whole of it's run over repetitive curb stomp fests), just XYZ was good at making them look very flashy.

There's more to the show than just trying to look superficially badass and 'epic' and making promises it can't keep ("Yeaahhh, Ash is gonna totally win the league this time, and AshGreninja is gonna make new meaning to the anime, and Serena's gonna be Ash's soulmate, things are so definitely not gonna return to status quo completely by the end of this series"). Sun/Moon, while maybe not battle heavy, has still had some intense moments, but it knows it can get as much from settling down and focusing on personalities and other things. Yeah, it overdoes on the slapstick a bit, but it doesn't feel as one track focused on that as XYZ did with 'actionizing' the show. And having a more laid back promotion means people can go in focusing on the positives than being disappointed by too high expectations XYZ tried to promote.

I'm not saying Sun/Moon can't plummet horribly at this point, but it is eight episodes in.

I feel like I've had this argument with you  under a different username so I'll just run through these real quick 

>"dodge" is the default counter strategy in every saga of the anime, blaming XY for staring something that's been around for 20 years is hardly fair 

>Same  with plot armor, again something XY doesn't do more or less then any other saga 

>AND SAME with TR battles being more frequent then regular battles, I hope you see what I'm getting at 

>Serena isn't a battler so if you expected awesome battle moments from her you only have yourself to blame honestly. And her bring Ash's soulmate was a fantasy the fandom made up , it was nothing more then light shipping in the anime proper 

I just have to raise an eyebrow at you giving XY so much grief for having well animated/coregraphed  battles as if it's such a bad thing. Pokemon's bread and butter IS battling, it's THE most popular aspect of franchise, so yes it's not surprise XY might try and spruce that up after the stock animation attack spam fests of BW that you claim is better. 

Of course that's not the ONLY thing Pokemon about or that good battles alone makes a good series, XY had a decent amount of focus in non action moments and character introsoectives and development and honestly the series is still majority silly lackadaisical filler so I have no idea why you insist it's just "action"  all the time to begin with.  

[E-122-Psi]

My problem is more it is treated as some pinnacle of writing quality for the show within the fan base and what Sun/Moon is defiling right now, despite it succumbing to the same formula flaws and cheapness previous series did, if not exacerbating. 'Dodge' and plot armour if anything were spammed their worst this series, which definitely cheapened a lot of the protagonists' progress and the supposed brilliant choreography of the battles. I was actually far less invested in seeing them win this series simply because they had to many invincibility buttons. Everyone else was their underdog.

Serena is an issue because her non battling goals didn't stop her being pushed as Ash's teammate over Clemont, who at least had skill to be interesting to watch, and wasting tons of episodes with extremely generic curb stomp battles against grunts and TR just to make her look competent, when they may as well have just let her level grind a little.

TR is an issue because they got even lazier with them than usual, nearly all their schemes in XYZ were interchangeable one minute beatings, to the point you could likely predict the moves each character would use in exact order, and often in a way that interrupted a better battle or plot idea. It looked especially bad straight after a series that not only bothered to make TR challenging enough that the heroes look accomplished stopping them, but demonstrated they didn't have to be forced into every episode anymore.

I just don't get why so many put it on a pedestal when they rip on stuff like BW relentlessly, especially when BW, despite having it's own problems, at least tried to rectify or downplay some of the aforementioned recurring flaws in the anime, while XYZ just got lazy and worsened them. And as said before, Sun/Moon is eight episodes in, just because XY started on a big adrenaline boosted bang and SM didn't doesn't mean there will be barely any battles, especially abiding by the preview of the next episode.

[Soniman]

TR got the occasional focus episode, none of them were particularly bad and in fact some  were good and there was the added bonus of carrying over BW's penchant for having them absent in episodes  (since you keep saying XY ruined the things BW "fixed")

And in battles they were battle fodder, again, like in every other saga, I legitimately don't know what you expected, that's what their there for, that's what they've always been used for ... But they were competent in BW so I guess that's one thing XY backtracked on.... If BW didn't already backtrack on its own competent TR spin by making them goofs again in the last third anyway.

And again "dodge"  was used at exactly the same frequency it's always been, I'm not sure where you get the idea it was spammed, honestly despite you insisting BW's battles as better (despite again, less strategy overall, stock animation at its worst since OS and the aforementioned effect backgrounds)  I do recall the dodge command being used a lot more liberally there anyway. I don't recall any particularly insistes in XY where it got excessive  (then again I really don't even see what's so offensive about it in general, it's just a simple generic command for trainers to say when their just not spouting move names ((something I DO recall happening in BW battles quite a lot). 

 

[Dejimon11]

Please note that the list of things I'm going to post seems a bit unorganized but it's something I really needed to get out of

Ok regarding Team Rocket: I know this is an unpopular opinion but I thought that they were really overstaying their welcome during the Advance anime. They were literally shoe horned in most episodes because the episode needed a villain. Not to mention the fact that they would waste time out of episodes to explain their unorthodox reasoning to why Giovanni would want a Pokemon that they would try to steal the worst being Articuno(Brock's gag was also boring for the record) . I personally believed that they were handled well in Black and White when it first started since they were doing their own thing and had a purpose for showing up-unfortunately that didn't last long because of IRL circumstances that killed the shows plans and apparently fans were complain that they didn't like change since it lacked their charm. I think they were able to find a decent compromise between a serious/goofy side of them which carried over to XY and even tho Sun/Moon is the more goofy side I actually like how Giovanni respects them now instead of "oh you're still here go to this random region so I can work in peace"

4 hours ago, E-122-Psi said:

I just don't get why so many put it on a pedestal when they rip on stuff like BW relentlessly, especially when BW, despite having it's own problems, at least tried to rectify or downplay some of the aforementioned recurring flaws in the anime, while XYZ just got lazy and worsened them. And as said before, Sun/Moon is eight episodes in, just because XY started on a big adrenaline boosted bang and SM didn't doesn't mean there will be barely any battles, especially abiding by the preview of the next episode.

I honestly can't tell if you're being serious right now but I'll try to explain why BW get's shitted on. Let's start off with the fact that the very first episode revealed that everything that has happened through the start of the series no time has passed at all and Ash is for some reason still 10. If it was a show like say Spongebob, Simpsons etc where there was no continuity I would of bought it but since a lot of stuff happened it's just flat out bullshit didn't help that near the end of the series they were essentially having continuity with Dawn and Lookers return, Ash's flashback with Charizard and the fact that his training at the Charicific Valley was complete and one of the ending credits had Ash holding hands with every previous traveling companions, Gary and their Pokemon. Yeah it's pretty much bullshit.

Another issue is that they turned Ash into a fucking moron. I find it hard to believe that this was the same Ash who went from being a terrible trainer when the show first began to learning from his mistakes, being competent, coming up with a strategy, being pushed to his limits with his rivalry with Paul and being a mentor to both May and Dawn to when he was traveling with them. BW essentially washed away any development he had, gave him a shitty ass rival, nerfed Pikachu hard to the point where it lost to an in-experienced Snivy and gave us shitty fights like these

I honestly have no idea how anybody thought that Ash's characterization here was ok please explain to me I really would like to know. 

 

Here's another problem the travel companions are the worst he's ever had: I don't really hate Cilan but he just never left an impression on me and all I was wondering why was he even here in the first place. I never understood his gag the only thing that I associated him with was just being the cook that's all plus I didn't feel he had much chemistry with Ash and Iris speaking off.

Iris was pretty much Misty 2.0 and before anybody says anything I think I've made it clear that I didn't think that Misty wasn't a good character to begin with(i'm gonna get so much hate). Iris goal was that she wanted to be the best dragon trainer but out of her 4 Pokemon only two of them were dragons, and even tho her Axew had a dream to fully evolved it pretty much did jack shit. She kept dissing Ash at how bad of a trainer he was but in reality she's worse since two of her Pokemon barely obeyed her and only did when there was a strong Pokemon. I mean as much as I shit on Misty for barely doing anything to achieve her goal of being the best water Pokemon trainer at least a majority of the Pokemon she caught her a water Pokemon...although Iris is a better battler so I guess it balances it out. I guess. Also the less said about Ash's shitty rivals in this series the better

 

Now as for the praise XY I'll admit initially the only reason why I praised it when it first came out was because it wasn't BW kinda like how many people praised stuff like Pokemon Origins, Generations, the legend of thunder etc because it wasn't Ash without even pointing out their flaws. XY isn't in no way's in the likes of Citizen Kane or anything like that. The really why I love XY and consider it the best the series has been is because it felt like they actually tried to make the show good again but put a little more effort into than they usually did. Another great thing about the show was that the pacing was actually better than previous series, seriously go back and watch Johto and see how much filler there is holy crap. I actually liked the fact that Ash finally had a fully evolved Water Pokemon and the best part is that it was a starter the curse was broken and not to mention his team with the exception of Pikachu and Hawlucha(who cant evolve) was actually fully evolved something I actually wanted to see for a long time. I felt like there was actually a story being told this time around and the team flare arc is one of the best arcs in the series and actually the only good villain team arc the show had done. And his travel companions were actually fun likable and the first time in a while I was sad that these characters left. But I'll point out the flaws.

Ash's characterization- It's kinda reverse BW here where it's shown that he has learned a lot and almost everybody looks up to him I he's not really that goofy/laid back as he was was in Advanced/DP which got his personality down great. He's essentially an overly heroic at times and it seems like he's on battle mode 24/7. His only comedic sides was that he fanboys over Clemont's inventions or if they do one of those incredibly goofy episodes like the Pokeball factory

Lack of continuity from the previous seasons- Yes I've said this multiple times but holy crap it's still annoying. I know a lot of people would say every Pokemon series would always ignore the past, I strongly disagree with that notion since every other series up to this point has in someway shape or form has acknowledged past events. This series didn't bring back any of Ash's older Pokemon especially during the league which would of been better, previous travel companions(even tho Cilan happened after Ash left I would of preferred if they had a reunion or something like that), hell professor oak barely shows up to my count he only appeared twice. Like hell I'm still shocked that they didn't bring back Charizard so Ash could have a Mega Evolution or anything like that. Like I don't know why they decided to just make use forget everything that happened. There are continuity nods in some of the battles that you wouldnt notice. Like Pikachu vs Tyranatar at the league was a direct reference to one of the johto openings, and Pikachu defeating metagross was a call back to the hoenn league. 

Serena- Ok let's just address the elephant in the room. I think Serena is the best female companions the show has had since May. Sorry @Soniman but Dawn is pretty much at 3rd place if we're ignoring Bonnie. Let's be real when Serena first started out she didn't do jack shit at all it wasn't until the second season during the summer camp arc where she finally decided to have a goal in mind which was like 40+ episodes hell I'm pretty sure if I go back to previous post I'm sure a lot of hated Serena and were hoping Korrina would replace her because of how damn useless she was. Thank God the show knew what they wanted to do with her even if it took forever 

Greninja- Dude Greninja is one of my favorite Pokemon to date and I love the Ash-Greninja bond thing my problem with it is that I wish that there was more development between Ash's and Froakie/Frogadier's relationship before the transformation happened to make it a little more satisfying. Also Greninja's goodbye literally made no-sense and was the most forced/rushed goodbye ever. Hope it comes back

Kalos League- A lot of folks say the league was rushed but i disagree because when you look at previous leagues do we really need to see Ash's first two matches to cannon fodder characters? Do we really need to spend time on Team Rocket Shenanigans? Like seriously go back and watch the previous leagues, Kalos was actually the longest league arc we've ever had since the original keep that in perspective. My main grip with Kalos was how it ended, like there was no reason how Ash lost to Alain like that. What was the point of Greninja's destructo disk attack which was never brought up again? why the hell would they overhype this as Ash's first win? Like real talk I don't think Ash winning one real league would automatically be the end of master quest(ha!). And I'm sorry the whole it's for kids excuse is kinda bullshit especially since it was just random fans that were watching this online that were pissed, Japan was pissed off to this thing was trending on twitter that day, something a lot of people really forgot to mention. It also makes it worse since Alain didn't want to enter the damn thing in the first place and just wanted to battle Ash. You think Ash breezing through this thing was bad. Up until he final battle the only Pokemon Alain used were his Metagross and Charizard and even tho www were following his story through his spinoff arc we didn't know he had other Pokemon since all he was using was his damn Charizard. I still don't get how folks are still trying to justify this like "oh Ash couldn't win because his team was fully evolved if we saw his un-evolved men's it would of been more believable." Then again these were just random big named youtubers who stopped watching long ago and only made videos talking about that and sun/moon's animation just for views so whatever. 

Alain- I actually liked Alain but as time went on they just unintentionally turned him into a Gary-Stu. The dude essentially got everything folks wanted Ash to get since the very beginning. The league, the girl and closure things he probably didn't want. It doesn't help that what caused team flare's plans to be set in motion was pretty much all his fault and get's away with it. He was the one that took down Zygarde-2, he was the one collecting Mega evolution energy and he barely did jack shit to make up for his faults during the team flare arc. But hey at least we got a protagonist(he technically is one) who got his shit together so I guess folks got their wish so have. Oh yeah they didn't through a parade after all the chaos was all said and done like in the games which is dumb since the zygard crap was televised and nobody got credit.

One more flaw- AZ wasn't in this show which is weird considering how much of a major plot point he is in the games and how he's essentially responsible for the creation of Megs evolution, the ultimate weapon and problem the reason why Lysandre is the way he is. I guess there was already too many things happening to not make it work.

Overall XY has a whole bunch of flash but man it has a whole bunch of good to make up for it. It aint perfect then again nothing in this franchise is perfect so whatever.

Now as for Sun/Moon

Look the show just started and we're getting introduced to the characters so I'm fine with this. At least non of the episodes so far have been filler and they've been setting stuff up for future events. I'm fine with the change since it's the show takes place in one area for now and is laid back. Plus it's better having Ash stay in a house and go to school before he starts the island trials than him and his travel companions wake up in a forrest and meet the character of the day. Ok I'm done rambling for now. 

[Big Panda]

Surprised you didn't bring up what is probably BW's biggest sin (imo):

Ash's league rank dropped for the first time in the shows history, and it was to a rival that is even more incompetent than he is.

[Dejimon11]

Man to be honest there are a lot of problems with the BW anime that I just flat out didn't want to mention Like how terrible the team plasma arc and the whole Zekrom thing which was a major plot point for the first two episodes just flat out got abandoned. Again I know it wasn't entirely their fault but I'm sure that there could of been some work arounds with how they were going to do.

Or how about the fact that this was the first time Ash met Giovanni and it was probably one of the worst written things in the show's history. Well technically Mewtwo returns was the first but I don't think anybody really counts that and speaking of Mewtwo I don't think we want to open that can of worms of how bad that movie and the other BW movies were. No seriously we don't need to talk about that we've pretty much ran that conversation to the ground and I'm sick of talk about those. 

Or how about that for the 3rd time in the series Ash's fire starter had a tragic backstory with the abusive trainer? It was worse there since we just came off the heels of DP with Paul and Infernape. Oh and let's not forget about how incredibly annoying Oshawatt was people liked him because he was cute. Something that I've grown to hate was that Ash's Pokemon who didn't evolve were able to take down bigger and well trained Pokemon. This isn't a case of it's not like the games it was just an example of poor writing and since Ash caught Oshawatt first you'd think that it would of been the one to evolve. Worst example of this is that double battle with Tepig and Snivy vs Heatmore and Emboar that was pure bullshit.

Even though I know folks liked the BW anime I haven't met a single person who has liked the BW2/Decolora Islands season. Everybody has told me that was the low point in the anime's history and it felt like padding until XY started. The only good point about that season was that there was a lead into the Kalos something that Sinnoh and Kalos seasons severely lacked. 

But hey at least we got this nice moment at the end of the series 

Poor Squirtle tho we haven't seen him in 10 years think about that.

[Soniman]

There's some points I agree and disagree with but the main point of contention I have us that Alan is not a Gary stu whatsoever. I don't know why so many people wanted Alan to be severely punished for helping Lysandre when he's still a kid, incredibly remorseful, and actively helped stopped Lysandre. Feels more like people wanted Alan to be punished for having the gall to beat Ash

[E-122-Psi]

I just think XY did a one step forward and then another step backward.

Sure it fixed Ash's competence, but also exaggerated THAT element up to absurd levels, thus simplifying his character again, but instead to the positives, with him excessively mature and badass and goody goody and everyone worshipping the ground he walked on. And even then BW Ash had a decent compromise by the end of the series, while XY Ash just got more over the top and blandly Ace-like, much in a similar tone to Sonic X Sonic, being more a pivot for other more interesting characters' development from being inspired by him. In terms of chemistry this meant most interactions he had were one sided besides 'motivating' people by how upbeat he was, he had ONE argument the entire series and Serena treated it like a total betrayal of what he was, she was THAT unused to him having negative aspects, which if anything demonstrated how limited their bond was.

Even ignoring that, XY ignored all continuity and experience in terms of his progression, so felt skewed in showing him 'fully developed' as much as BW's reset did. Sun/Moon might actually be working into a better compromise than either of them, since he is goofy/childish AND still battle competent and insightful, with links to his former travels referenced from the very first episode.

Team Rocket had a decent compromise in late BW/early XY, being back to bumbling, but still remaining a bit methodical and formidable and so still able to offer a challenge for the twerps, not to mention most of their roles being limited to when they could have entertaining use or move the story forward. As XY wanted to shill Ash (and even worse Serena despite still being a total novice) Team Rocket got slowly dumbed down to useless, and were even shoved into episodes and interrupting plots they weren't needed in an even less inventive way than the pre-BW series where they were mandatory per episode. You could predict how every single face-off with them would play out since they were pretty much a perennial writers' cop out for when they didn't know how to make the main story end. The biggest saving grace was the Flare arc and the last few episodes preceding, where they pretty much rage quit after lamp shading how ridiculously invincible the twerp cast had become.

The amount of annoying, boring or over/under pushed Pokemon was about the same for both series. Oshawott's comic relief was no less repetitive than Pancham and Chespin. I did like BW at least tried to go for the original series' mentality, having some members not needing to evolve to prove their worth and using the powers they had (especially since in the anime, evolution is the standard anime 'power of really really wanting something when in a pinch' process rather than something worked for). It didn't execute it all that brilliantly, but it was no less a disaster story than Noivern, who went from a completely inexperienced Noibat, to suddenly being a god modded Noivern....and then being completely mediocre.

I feel plot armour was excessive because, while it was frequent in other shows, there were still palpable enough times the protagonists worked and earned victories through competence. Besides Ash's gym run though (which thankfully lacked any interruptions), they overused invincible moments for the twerps, either giving them a ridiculously minimal challenge even an infant with their Weedle could win (see the TR complaint above) or having some bigger assistance or stroke of luck occur (eg. evolution spamming). It was most prevalent for the companions. It NEVER felt like Serena stood a chance of losing the showcases until the finals (which a protagonist never wins anyway) and her token losses were always excused so no one could surpass her at her full capacity. It was also ridiculous, whether it be her specialty or not, that she NEVER lost a battle in all that time, even the times she took token hits were minimal (being mostly TR battles didn't seem that much of an excuse, even Ash's team were put on the ropes a few times by them).

Regardless of the BW cast's defects and Ash's reset, with TR's boost and a bigger helping of antagonists, along with other arcs like Iris trying to make her Pokemon obey her (and not counting a victory BECAUSE of disobedience or fluke as an earned one), they still tried to make it look like they were working and earning accomplishments. XY, within all the shilling, actually made these minimal, being too obsessed with the XY twerp cast cleaning house all the time, and whenever they didn't have all the leverage, being instantly reduced to crying 'PLOT, SAVE ME!', and immediately being answered. I don't root for protagonists who are never forced to earn anything on their own, and while Pokemon has always lingered around the fine line on that, XY just went over the top for the sake of flashy action.

[Soniman]

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree here, you seem to hold BW in higher regard then XY and that's fine. But you'll  never be able to convince me XY making TR ineffectual jobbers was something remotely new to this series (or how that somehow reflects poorly on the group) , that Ash inspiring people and being competent is a detriment to his character, that the plot armor was any more frequent than usual, or that Ash and Serena didn't train or grow or improve,  I will say Ash was pretty OP in XY but even then he had the occasional struggles, whether it being training related, character related, or during the heat of battle 

[E-122-Psi]

10 minutes ago, Soniman said:

We're just gonna have to agree to disagree here, you seem to hold BW in higher regard then XY and that's fine. But you'll  never be able to convince me XY making TR ineffectual jobbers was something remotely new to this series, that Ash inspiring people and being competent is a detriment to his character, that the plot armor was any more frequent than usual, or that Ash and Serena didn't train or grow or improve,  I will say Ash was pretty OP in XY but even then he had the occasional struggles, whether it being training related, character related, or during the heat of battle 

I will say that BW was FAR from perfect itself, but deserves no more flak than XY. I do like it tried to rectify mistakes that the anime suffered from since about the beginning though. I guess XY lost points for me because it went back to exacerbating those old issues despite being made afterwards, which is no less backwards a move than BW lobotomising Ash.

Ash inspiring people and being competent is fine when it isn't the ONLY interesting aspect of his character, which is why I'm totally fine with him still having those elements in Sun/Moon. Similarly TR are bumbling but used moderately, and while their plans aren't brilliant they do at least require enough strategy to defeat to make them interesting to watch and say that the twerp squad for that series looks competent.

Granted again, this is EIGHT episodes in, so it can go wrong in all that time left, but I do think Sun/Moon has the potential to improve on both series if it keeps thing up.

[Big Panda]

20 hours ago, Dejimon11 said:

 

Poor Squirtle tho we haven't seen him in 10 years think about that.

Forget Squirtle, what about freaking Primeape? It's still technically under Ash's ownership according to Bulbapedia and a bunch of opening and ending animations and yet we haven't seen even a hint of it since it went into "training".

[Big Panda]

So, that edit up there? It was left as is for the UK airing.

[E-122-Psi]

1 hour ago, Ernest-Panda-Baring-Gifts said:

So, that edit up there? It was left as is for the UK airing.

How do you mean? Ash getting the agony zap or the sleepy zap?

[Big Panda]

29 minutes ago, E-122-Psi said:

How do you mean? Ash getting the agony zap or the sleepy zap?

The crucifix position.