3D Sonic games

[Diogenes]

I was thinking of giving Sonic Chaos Boost or something along those lines, but now I'm reconsidering. What do you think?

It barely seems worth giving to Shadow, I don't know why you'd give it to Sonic, who's never had a move like that.

Crouching and jumping would be useful if you need to jump over an obstacle in a tight space.

Sonic already curls up when he jumps, what could possibly be gained by crouching first?

Rolling then jumping is necessary if you want to jump in ball form without going careening forward in a certain direction.

1. What? 2. There's absolutely nothing preventing you from jumping while rolling so I don't know what the fuck you're even talking about.

However, boosting in ball form is not necessary because boost by definition requires you to be standing.

No it doesn't. Sonic can boost in all sort of situations, I see no reason he couldn't boost while rolling. This is irrelevant, anyway.

And if you think about it, isn't Spin Dash a sort of rolling boost?

No. You need to come to a stop and charge the spindash; you can't simply press a button at any time for an instant burst of speed. And the spindash is always and only one singular burst of speed, not constant forward propulsion for as long as you hold the button.

No, I'm okay at Classic Sonic. It's just not something you can speed run easily.

Kind of proves my point if you expect speed running to be easy.

You don't seem to want "high speed".

If you define "high speed" as "boost always", then no, I do not. If you define "high speed" as "often going very fast", then yes, I do.

Maybe to you, the series has lost it's importance, but you have to think about people who aren't Classic fans.

I think they will learn to deal with having better gameplay, even if it requires them to expend effort to go really fast.

Telling them "We're going back to the Genesis gameplay, if you don't like it then though shit" is a terrible business approach and will lose them a lot of fans.

Of course telling them to fuck off is going to lose fans, but considering how schizophrenic this series has been I don't believe for a moment that they'd suffer much if they simply changed the gameplay again, except to something good this time.

So if you can't

respect that Modern fans like the high speed boost oriented gameplay, then I have nothing more to say to you.

I can respect the people, as long as they present their views reasonably. But I disagree emphatically with them, and have no obligation to like their ideas.

[Bolt The Cat]

I think they will learn to deal with having better gameplay, even if it requires them to expend effort to go really fast.

If it's like Classic Sonic in Generations, I could probably live with that, but that's about as far as I'll go.

Of course telling them to fuck off is going to lose fans, but considering how schizophrenic this series has been I don't believe for a moment that they'd suffer much if they simply changed the gameplay again, except to something good this time.

They wouldn't say that exactly. At any rate, yes, they should change the gameplay, but they need to change it to something that the majority of fans can live with. My point is going back to the Genesis gameplay would drive a large group of fans away.

I can respect the people, as long as they present their views reasonably. But I disagree emphatically with them, and have no obligation to like their ideas.

You don't have to like other people's ideas, you just have to respect that other people have different ideas on what constitutes a good Sonic game.

[Diogenes]

If it's like Classic Sonic in Generations, I could probably live with that, but that's about as far as I'll go.

I'm suggesting something many times better than that embarrassing excuse for classic Sonic.

They wouldn't say that exactly. At any rate, yes, they should change the gameplay, but they need to change it to something that the majority of fans can live with. My point is going back to the Genesis gameplay would drive a large group of fans away.

Doubt it.

You don't have to like other people's ideas, you just have to respect that other people have different ideas on what constitutes a good Sonic game.

I do. And because of that respect, I argue with them openly, honestly, and passionately.

[Kuzu]

Wow this topic became a clustefuck, what are we arguing about?

[Chaos Warp]

Wow this topic became a clustefuck, what are we arguing about?

[E-25]

Wow this topic became a clustefuck, what are we arguing about?

Edited January 3, 2012 by E-25

[Kuzu]

Can't we just have both and get along, I see no reason why we can't have a boost like move, along with using physic mechanics.

[Rusty Spy]

That's why I keep suggesting the advance 2 boost as it's the best of both worlds.

[Bolt The Cat]

Can't we just have both and get along, I see no reason why we can't have a boost like move, along with using physic mechanics.

[Celestia]

The boost as it is now would render any point of "classic physics" moot. You wouldn't need to get a running start to go through a loop, build up enough speed by rolling, or stop and charge up a spin-dash. You could just boost right on through, even from a standstill. I say this as someone who doesn't really mind the boost, but if it went away, I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. Plus having the spin dash back would be neat.

...As long as Sonic's normal running speed is made just a bit faster. Sometimes it seems it's a bit too slow, although maybe that's just because it's compared to the boost.

EDIT: Changed my wording somewhat + new sentence. ^^;

Edited January 3, 2012 by ElementofChaos7

[Diogenes]

Can't we just have both and get along, I see no reason why we can't have a boost like move, along with using physic mechanics.

Because the boost largely renders them irrelevant. Why roll downhill to build speed and play carefully but boldly to maintain your speed when you have instant and continuous speed at the push of a button?

That's why I keep suggesting the advance 2 boost as it's the best of both worlds.

I still don't understand how it is in any way related to the discussion. Like, you can call it a boost, maybe it's officially called a boost (I don't remember if it was ever given an official name), but it doesn't have any of the properties I associate with the boost, so I don't see how it factors into "keeping both". It's a separate matter entirely.

[Kuzu]

That's what I've been asking this whole time.

No, I've read your ideas and I they're still flawed, Dio may be blunt, but he's right your ideas focus too much on "Speed, Speed, Speed" and not enough on what actually made Sonic what he is to begin with. Half of the moves you listed are completely unnecessary and add nothing to the gameplay that a simple jump can't fix.

Because the boost largely renders them irrelevant. Why roll downhill to build speed and play carefully but boldly to maintain your speed when you have instant and continuous speed at the push of a button?

Why would I keep a move like that? I meant keep properties from the boost such as maybe the speed, or make it similar to that acceleration button you mentioned, but get rid of invincibility and spamming properties to it.

[Celestia]

I believe the Advance 2 (although it appeared in Advance 3/the Rush series/Colours DS as well) "boost" is referred to as "Boost Mode". Since it's activated after running at full-speed for some time, and doesn't make you invincible, the only similarity to the Rush/Unleashed-style boost is...well, the speed.

[Old dead account]

Maybe boost can be either an aftergame unlockable or a supersonic exclusive. Or both.

[Kuzu]

Maybe boost can be either an aftergame unlockable or a supersonic exclusive. Or both.

I opt for Super Sonic exclusive as it keeps it out of the main gameplay.

[Indigo Rush]

I've always thought the best way to balance both the boost and the spin-dash together in the same game is to let rolling be the best option for going down slopes or breaking through walls while boosting is the best option for going uphill or on flat surfaces.

This would, of course, have to result in making the boost slightly less efficient than it is now by slowing it down to Colors' speed and making it harder to refill the gauge. Consequently, the spin-dash and rolling ability would need to gain effectiveness to make it worth use in particular areas in a level.

If you apply some creative and thoughtful level design, a true speed-running pro could take advantage of both moves and gain some incredible speed and inertia.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Indigo Rush

[Rusty Spy]

I still don't understand how it is in any way related to the discussion.

It was a response to Shadic's 'why can't we have both' question.

Like, you can call it a boost, maybe it's officially called a boost (I don't remember if it was ever given an official name), but it doesn't have any of the properties I associate with theboost,

It's official name is 'boost mode' and it's a burst of speed just like the Rush boost. (plus it came BEFORE the modern boost).

I don't see how it factors into "keeping both".

It keeps the blistering speeds of the modern boost, but is controlled and largely affected by physics.

You want the gameplay to focus on maintaining speed through high speed platforming, Bolt wants to stay with Unleashed's blisteringly fast constant speed gameplay. The advance 2 boost works with both by using that Unleashed level speed as a reward for keeping your momentum.

[Big Boss (legendsneverdie)]

How about we Keep the boost as Super Sonic exclusive, the Spindash/roll as unlockable after you beat the game, and have a move that will act like a much weaker version of the boost, but one that can be used infinitely?

[Celestia]

...Why not have the spin dash/roll right from the beginning? I don't see why you would make it an unlockable.

[Tornado]

so I don't see how it factors into "keeping both"

Maintains the speed increase and other tangible advantages of the current boost, but is activated like the Advance 2 one.

[Indigo Rush]

How about we Keep the boost as Super Sonic exclusive

Because then you effectively design levels around a mode that you won't hypothetically attain until you've already completed some objective that is almost always achieved after the game is completed.

, the Spindash/roll as unlockable after you beat the game,

Why?

and have a move that will act like a much weaker version of the boost, but one that can be used infinitely?

Such as? The spin-dash and boost both achieve these means. The answer isn't to make them unlockables, you either replace one with the other, or modify their functions to make them different enough to co-exist. The former is more reasonable, but causes division, and the latter could be ideal, but is an absolute headache to figure out.

[Old dead account]

Why not start with the Sonic just rolling, then after the first level he gets the spindash, then stomp, then etc. and then have the boost as an aftergame/supersonic exclusive? I think that would give a feeling of Sonic getting naturally more powerful.

[Chaos Warp]

I've always thought the best way to balance both the boost and the spin-dash together in the same game is to let rolling be the best option for going down slopes or breaking through walls while boosting is the best option for going uphill or on flat surfaces.

This would, of course, have to result in making the boost slightly less efficient than it is now by slowing it down to Colors' speed and making it harder to refill the gauge. Consequently, the spin-dash and rolling ability would need to gain effectiveness to make it worth use in particular areas in a level.

If you apply some creative and thoughtful level design, a true speed-running pro could take advantage of both moves and gain some incredible speed and inertia.

Myself, I'd just make the boost accelerate to it's max speed and not be affected by slopes, while the spindash is faster initially and is affected by slopes.

[Indigo Rush]

The problem with making a move like the boost or spin-dash unlockable is that you then have to consider how you design your levels. The boost is such a crucial move that the levels are designed around it in the same way that they are designed around the jump and homing attack. You have to make the game playable and fun without it, but then you suddenly have to do the same when the boost is there as well. This presents a big paradoxical problem.

It's part of the reason why Super Sonic in Colors felt a little lackluster at times: levels were design around Wisp powers, and suddenly you're unable to use them. Sure, some slight changes are made so that you can progress, but the way you play the levels in particular areas become very different. You sacrifice consistency to try to make everybody happy.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Indigo Rush

[azoo]

Why not just make Super Sonic have the boost minus the gauge, and as normal Sonic it's a Spin Dash / roll? Then give Sonic the "boost mode" after images and slight speed bump-up when running down an sharp incline for a period of time?

Great idea, Sega use this and print money, Azu where would we be without you, etc. etc.