3D Sonic games

[ChikaBoing]

One thing I will always dislike about unleashed is the lack of free movement though. All you get is narrow paths which is why people sometimes compare it's "linearity" with sonic adventure 2. A 3d sonic game without 3d free movement is silly imo.

What is questionable that many Sonic Fans don't care about that. They say that they prefer SA2 over SA1 for 3d Sonic games cause of better design,say it's perfected Sonic in 3D.Even if is possibly a lot lazier way to transition Sonic to actual 3d gameplay.

[The Man On The Inside]

In response to the topic question, i'd answer by saying that the physics/momentum/inertia stuff should not be reserved for 2d, but should actually be attempted in 3d.

Simple things like spindashing up an incline, or rolling down a hill, should be unscripted, requiring you build up speed (be it through a boost or a spindash or something like that,idk) to do them.

Basically, it would be Mega Drive/Genesis Physics 3D: The Game.

This is in response to the question, which asked, how would I design it. This is not to be interpreted as "Modern sonic will suck in generations because of Unleashed gameplay". The unleashed gameplay is fine and should be stuck with IMO.

another thing i'd get rid of is the notion of levels. In his Unleashed review Yahtzee said something like " the levels, you know, the actual game part of the fucking game". Make it so that the whole game is the "the actual game part of the fucking game". Look at the original jak and daxter game. Instead of level-to-level, it's more of an open world, which just tells you the name of an area (without a loading screen creating an arbituary level/hub seperation) upon entry "this is the spider cave" once you get to it. Once inside the area you are greeted with platforming challenges.

So, jak-and-daxter open world, except you're a really fast character, and among the platforming areas you could include unique sonic-like concepts, be it in level design, or obstacles, that actually explore the idea that you can turn into a ball at any time and have sphere physics. Maybe light puzzle-solving as well (Idk, "press this button to move this ramp into place so that sonic can roll down it giving him enough speed to do x?) I don't really know.

tl;dr

Yeah that was basically very stream-of-conciousness, a bit rambling. Basically, remember in sonic 1 when you didn't have enough speed to get through the loop-de-loop so you had to go back a bit and build momentum so that you could?

that, but in 3d. also rolling ball physics in 3d could be really fun if pulled of well

even more tl;dr

The new SSX game except you have a ball form.

Edited June 18, 2011 by ForgeCircuit

[Djawed]

What is questionable that many Sonic Fans don't care about that. They say that they prefer SA2 over SA1 for 3d Sonic games cause of better design,say it's perfected Sonic in 3D.Even if is possibly a lot lazier way to transition Sonic to actual 3d gameplay.

That it had improvements making it an overall better game doesn't mean that it didn't have some regressions. The narrow paths are certainly one of them if you ask me. The setting as well, but that's allready dealt with.

Edited June 18, 2011 by Jaouad

[Scar]

In response to the topic question, i'd answer by saying that the physics/momentum/inertia stuff should not be reserved for 2d, but should actually be attempted in 3d.

Go play Unleashed. It has all of the above physics present.

Simple things like spindashing up an incline, or rolling down a hill, should be unscripted, requiring you build up speed (be it through a boost or a spindash or something like that,idk) to do them.

Scripted events are needed in certain areas where the camera is shifting to allow you to see what's going on. However, I appreciate the sentiment.

another thing i'd get rid of is the notion of levels. In his Unleashed review Yahtzee said something like " the levels, you know, the actual game part of the fucking game". Make it so that the whole game is the "the actual game part of the fucking game". Look at the original jak and daxter game. Instead of level-to-level, it's more of an open world, which just tells you the name of an area (without a loading screen creating an arbituary level/hub seperation) upon entry "this is the spider cave" once you get to it. Once inside the area you are greeted with platforming challenges.

Simply is not possible. The PS3, 360 and even modern day PC's would break down and start crying at the mere thought of rendering a world that HUGE on the move, at that kind of speed. It would be OK if Sonic trundled along like Mario or a GTA character, however, even at boost-less Unleashed kind of speeds, Sonic is faster than just about anything. Having to keep up with that speed, and render intricate platforming segments, whilst maintaining a competant framerate, draw-distance and HD graphics, would be really fucking difficult.

Even if the technical aspects were all possible, there is another problem with this. Having to look around for the platforming. That would just feel really clunky as people could get lost, trying to look for the area which contains all the platforming. Sonic games should be a streamlined experience. Hubworlds, if they exist, should be completely optional (i.e an Arcade mode, where you go straight through from level to level)

even more tl;dr

The new SSX game except you have a ball form.

Could work, but easier said than done. Then again, City Escape pretty much already does that, in the skateboarding segment.

Edited June 18, 2011 by Scar

[ChikaBoing]

That it had improvements making it an overall better game doesn't mean that it didn't have some regressions. The narrow paths are certainly one of them if you ask me. The setting as well, but that's allready dealt with.

It certainly was a regression. It happens alot in Japans Game Development. They make something complex and ambitions that doesn't work out well,has glitches etc. they don't improve it on the Sequel,but heavily simplify it instead.

Its like I said. Unleashed proposed the intial concept.

Speaking of that, Unleashed really did that if you don't only have the Daytime Mainstages in Mind, but also every Mini-stage and also DLC stages. There was plattforming in 3d, exploration in 3d, as well all of those in 2d etc. etc. Alot of the blocky plattforming,2d bits, and slight nod of major alternate paths in the 2d sections from Colors can be found in Unleashed as a prototype. I'd say that we will see alot initially shown concepts of Unleashed(DLC,Optional Levels) will be seen in Generations, but obviously better controls to accommodate for it.

Edited June 18, 2011 by ChikaBoing

[The Man On The Inside]

Go play Unleashed. It has all of the above physics present.

That it did. Unleashed did well by having those really good moments where if you boosted up a ramp you'd go higher and further than if you weren't boosting - dash pads or not.

I should re-phrase. What I'm trying to say, is that 3D games haven't really explored the idea that sonic can sphere-ize himself (outside of maybe, pinball mingames, I guess), whereas in the 2D games, it really was the focus (so much so that the uncurling in Sonic 4 is a deal-breaker for many). If I were designing a 3D sonic game, sonic's ball form would be the focus once again.

Also, I highly reccomend the Sonic GDK demo if you haven't played it already. It has several loops which are both unscripted and in 3D.

As far as open world stuff goes, maybe sonic could have a speed cap in some parts but not in others ( but this creates a clear distinction between level and hub which defeats the point of open world gameplay in the first pla-FFFUUUUUUUU)

Well, since we've established that open-world sonic is impossible, the next best thing is to have no hubs. It would have to be level-to-level progession. That way, the whole game is the "actual game part of the fucking game" as yahtzee said. I mean, wasn't it for this reason that they didn't have hubs in SA2?

also, don't take that last sentence as "Generations will suck if it has hubs". Again, this thread is the hypothetical "how would you do it". I don't mind if generations has hubs or not.

But yahtzee will

Edited June 18, 2011 by ForgeCircuit

[Tatsumaki]

Your claiming that Sonic has been the most loyal to his past and his more full of nostalgia than any other video game character, more so than even Mario. Citing Shadow alone shows that that notion is complete bullshit. And if I really wanted to be picky, I could also include every 3D Sonic game between 1999 and 2006 besides Heroes (and MAYBE SA1) that also prove this point.

Mario on the other hand has been FAR more consistent than Sonic ever was; from Mario 64 to Galaxy 2, you look at any of those games and you'd instantly recognize it as Mario. You can place each classic game side by side with any modern game and there'd be little juxtaposition between them. Do the same with Sonic and you see a pretty big difference.

Just because Shadow says "Damn" all the time, shoots aliens, humans and other mofos doesn't mean it's lost nostalgia. There's still platforming parts. There's still the loops, rings, etc.

Of course; Sonic Adventure 1 is the closest thing to the Classics. Even Sonic's (and the rest of the characters with the exception of Amy Rose and new characters) are similar to their previous designs; except they've got different eye colors, they're taller, etc.

There can be a game where Sonic is raping every single woodland creature, causes wildfire, and runs through loops whilst he eats Amy Rose's guts, it still holds nostalgia, just because of the loops. I recognize that Sonic has undercome through a lot of fucked up horse-shit that makes no sense, but that still doesn't eliminate that Sonic games have been carefully preserving games since Sonic the Hedgehog 1. Even Unleashed has parts from Sonic Adventure 1.

And he at least didn't end up like this.

EDIT:

Ever played Eggman Hates Furries? Yeah...

It's full of bullshit and the fact that it's a fangame, it's still a really good game. And it holds a strange sense of nostalgia, even though there's new gameplay elements added in it.

Edited June 18, 2011 by Tatsumaki

[Rusty Spy]

Just because Shadow says "Damn" all the time, shoots aliens, humans and other mofos doesn't mean it's lost nostalgia. There's still platforming parts. There's still the loops, rings, etc.

Now your just reaching for straws here.

Of course; Sonic Adventure 1 is the closest thing to the Classics.

I raise you Sonic Heroes.

There can be a game where Sonic is raping every single woodland creature, causes wildfire, and runs through loops whilst he eats Amy Rose's guts, it still holds nostalgia, just because of the loops.

I recognize that Sonic has undercome through a lot of fucked up horse-shit that makes no sense, but that still doesn't eliminate that Sonic games have been carefully preserving games since Sonic the Hedgehog 1. Even Unleashed has parts from Sonic Adventure 1.

Ok you're missing the point here. I didn't say Sonic WASN'T nostalgic. What I'm saying is that he ISN'T anymore nostalgic than Mario, which you seem to claim.

[Phos]

I'm pretty sure the Generations gameplay engine can facilitate this. If you're talking about physics and momentum and all that, Unleashed had the most accurate of any 3D Sonic game, and Generations is obviously based on that engine. Further improvements on low-speed controls can be seen in City Escape, which requires movement without boost-spam.

So all you need to do is modify from here on outwards. Remove boost, replace with rolling/spindash. That's all I suppose.

I saw the videos of City Escape, and I don't see any sign of tighter controls or a need for them within that level. There always seems to be a homing attack target anytime precision might be required.

I prefer not to compare control schemes to the Unleashed style, if you use that as a starting point, you're starting out underground and have to dig yourself out. The problems with Unleashed's control seems fairly ingrained. His turning radius doesn't smoothly widen, it simply jumps from being small to being large. I can't imagine these controls being at all useful within a level with any sort of expectation of volition on the part of the player. It'd be Bubsy 3D all over again...

Actually that's not entirely fair, as Bubsy's control scheme is an example of mixed styles, it has instant acceleration with gradual turning, probably the worst combo.

Right now all Sonic Team themselves need to do is work on the level design. That is the source of the 'problem' not the existing mechanics. Perhaps the boost, but that really can be modified or removed with ease. Its one button, that can just be replaced with something comprable to the spindash (obviously, adjusted to 3D). Level design in Sonic games has never been focused directly on exploration (which is a massive misconception in my opinion), because having access to different paths to reach the same ending doesn't qualify as exploring. Sonic games focus should never really be on exploration, just getting to the end, whilst traversing through obstacles and level design elements, whilst using the quickest and most effective route to the end.

Thinking of different routes simply in terms of getting to the end really isn't the point of having different routes. You go through different routes for the sake of the route itself and whatever experiences it brings. It also serves to make a given world feel bigger and more alive, it makes it harder to find the boundaries of the level.

Of course the most effective way of doing this would be to utilise a series of descrete routes. Which I know Phos objects to , but its the best way to go. Each route, can have as many short-cuts and little mini-routes as they want, and each of the major routes should usually be intertwined with the other routes, so that its possible to switch between routes. The Width of the z-axis should be used to provide enough platforming but shouldn't be so wide open and massive that the level design is spread too thinly.

Of course interesting terrain is a must. Hills, trenches and all that should be there, having a flat level would be entirely boring.

Discrete routes can work pretty well, or else my favorite level wouldn't be Flying Battery Zone. What I don't like are the cases of good route/bad route, where there's one route that is immediately obvious as the best route. But even in Flying Battery Zone, the routes almost always had their own unique gimmick, or at least their own take on a gimmick, and the discrete routes don't go the entire length of the stage, they begin and end over the course if it.

[Scar]

I saw the videos of City Escape, and I don't see any sign of tighter controls or a need for them within that level. There always seems to be a homing attack target anytime precision might be required.

I prefer not to compare control schemes to the Unleashed style, if you use that as a starting point, you're starting out underground and have to dig yourself out. The problems with Unleashed's control seems fairly ingrained. His turning radius doesn't smoothly widen, it simply jumps from being small to being large. I can't imagine these controls being at all useful within a level with any sort of expectation of volition on the part of the player. It'd be Bubsy 3D all over again...

Edited June 27, 2011 by Scar

[Chaos Warp]

B-B-B-BUMP!

So, here's how I'd go about it.

In short, I'd take Generations Modern Sonic (Which is awesome BTW), but with more emphasis on momentum, a rolling/spindash move and a boost that is tweaked in a way unlike anything seen before.

Level design would have a lot of slopes, to bring more natural changes in speed, instead of always going from slow platforming to boosting, kind of like this:

Instead of being path-based, the level would feel more like one big "path", naturally connected by the slopes, sometimes funnelling into a quick-step section or linear area, but often not for long. Quick step might be utilized better, and not just in those linear dodging areas. I'm finding it hard to describe but it would be used for dodging obstacles in a non-linear area.

In terms of gameplay, Sonic would keep all his Unleashed moves with some exceptions.

-Jumping would keep more momentum, and have more in-air mobility. Not as much as the classics, but more then Modern Sonic as of right now.

-The drift would be axed, and a "lean" (With an animation ala SA2 Sonic when he turns) would be added, which doesn't turn at a set angle all the time like the drift, rather it acts as a boost of his turning ability (You'd be able to turn as tight as the drift though). You could also use it at lower speeds (I'd say about at half speed, you could start to use it). That way, you can have better turning control, without having the extra sensitivity all the time, without the set turning angle of the drift.

-The slide would be replaced with rolling/spindash. While stopped, hold B to spindash, and while moving, tap B to roll.

-The boost would be unlike any other incarnation of the boost, rather based around the idea of earning the ability to boost with momentum. The boost would start self-filling (albeit very slowly), when you got to a decent running speed (not sure exactly how fast), and the faster you went (with momentum and such), the faster it would fill. You could only use it when you were already running near your natural speed cap. This make the instant-dash of the boost earned by using momentum, and since it would consume fast, to use it sparingly. Faster-paced levels would give you more boost, and slower-paced levels less.

-Multiple playable characters would come back. I wont go into each of their unique movesets, but the common moves they would have are the Spin Jump, lean, quick step (although certain character's version would be slightly slower and not an attack), and boost (although certain character's would be, again, slower, and not an attack). other then that, all characters would have their unique attacks and movesets.

-All the old power-ups like speed shoes, elemental shields, and the standard shield would come back, often hidden very well.

-2d sections would be axed. Sonic Team have proved they can make good 3d gameplay, so I feel we don't need them any more.

As of right now (my opinion often changes on this), this would be my ideal 3d Sonic game.

Thoughts?

[Phos]

So a bit of a followup to my previous post now that generations is out.

Overall it pretty much has all the same elements as Unleashed just in different concentrations. I still want a pretty drastic upheaval.

[Bolt The Cat]

Modern gameplay is fine, but make it a bit more platforming oriented. I have a couple of ideas on how to do that:

1. The controls still need some work. HA and Light Dash are too finicky in Modern games.

2. Bring back the Bounce move from SA2/06. But this time, allow it to be used while moving (you bounce along as you run forward). That way, you can cross higher and farther gaps, but only with some well timed jumps.

3. Amend the Wall Jump so it can be used in more situations. One situation would be they could bring back the Triangle Jump as a wall jump. Another would be those QTE pads where you end up jumping from one to the other from SA1, 06, and Unleashed. They could make it so you have to Wall Jump from one to the other yourself, and you'd have to think about what direction to press or else you'll fall (they probably wouldn't put as many of these sections over death pits if they were to do this, since that'd be a bit unforgiving).

4. Bring back the Spindash for God's sake! It's Sonic's signature move. It could be used for more momentum based platforming like in the Classics. Basically, it'd be used for some platforming sections and also as an alternative to boost for those who hate it. To use it, you would roll by pressing B/O (it would replace Slide since it has little point anyway), then press the boost button.

5. BRING BACK OTHER PLAYABLE CHARACTERS! Sonic's gameplay is fun, but it can't support the series by itself, so it's time to bring back other playables. The gameplay should take a S3&K/Advance approach, that the characters should play similarly to Sonic, but with their own unique twist on it. But since the movesets are more complicated than they were back in the day, they'll diverge a bit more. For instance, I wouldn't give every character boost, I'd only give it to the faster characters (Shadow, Blaze, Metal Sonic, etc.). Basically, I'd keep abilities where they make sense based on the characters' style. In some cases, I might replace a move with a similar functioning move if it makes sense to do so. It's a bit confusing so I'll give some examples (I've compiled a moveset for just about every playable character that could possibly make a reappearance):

Sonic (just giving it for reference):

A/X- Jump; Jump Dash (after jumping); Homing Attack (when locked on); Wall Jump (near padded walls)

B/O- Roll; Bounce (in midair. Description is explained above)

X/Square- Boost; Spin Dash (while rolling)

Y/Triangle- Light Dash (when near rings)

LB+RB+LT+RT- Super Sonic

LB/L1- Quick Step Left

RB/R1- Quick Step Right

LT/L2- Drift Left

RT/R2- Drift Right

Tails

A/X- Jump; Fly (in midair); Wall Jump (near padded walls)

B/O- Roll; Bounce (in midair)

X/Square- Tail Whip; Spin Dash (when rolling)

Y/Triangle- Ring Bombs (okay, I know everyone hates these, but I need something to round out his moveset. But this time, the bombs drop directly below him when he uses them in midair, not in an arc)

LB+RB+LT+RT- Super Tails (isn't it about time Tails got a Super Form again?)

Knuckles

A/X- Jump; Glide (in midair. Climbable Walls will probably also be padded to restrict level design and keep people from doing crazy shortcuts.); Wall Jump (on padded walls)

B/O- Roll; Stomp (in midair. Since Knuckles is more power oriented, it'd make more sense for him to have Stomp instead of Bounce)

X/Square- Punch; Uppercut (in midair); Tackle (while gliding. It's basically like the HA, except it can't be chained because Knuckles plows right through the enemy); Spin Dash (while rolling)

Y/Triangle- Drill Punch (Knuckles drills forward to attack); Drill (in midair. Basically, it functions like the Drill Wisp)

Y then X/Triangle then Square- Earthshaker

LB+RB+LT+RT- Super Knuckles

Amy

A/X- Jump; Double Jump (after jumping); Wall Jump (near padded walls)

B/O- Head Slide (SMS Skull Leader from SEGA actually suggested this when I asked him for ideas on what to do instead of Spin Dash (since Amy apparently can't/doesn't Spin Dash except in Heroes where everyone plays the same). So I'm going with this); Stomp (in midair)

X/Square- Hammer Attack (can also be spun around like in SA1)

Y/Triangle- Hammer Catapault

Shadow (I rather like what they did with Shadow in 06, so I'm adding some of those elements in)

A/X- Jump; Jump Dash (after jumping); Homing Attack (when locked on); Chaos Attack (after using HA); Wall Jump (near padded walls)

B/O- Roll; Bounce (in midair)

X/Square- Boost; Spin Dash (when rolling); Chaos Control (in Chaos Boost mode)

Y/Triangle- Light Dash (near rings); Chaos Blast (in Chaos Boost mode)

X+Y/- Chaos Boost

Y then B/Triangle then O- Chaos Spear (it actually does damage this time, though); Chaos Lance (in Chaos Boost mode)

LB/L1- Quick Step Left

RB/R1- Quick Step Right

LT/L2- Drift Left

RT/R2- Drift Right

And of course, there'd be multiple paths that take advantage of each character. For instance, in my moveset for Blaze, she has no way of getting through tight spaces (she can't roll or slide, she just uses that spinning top move). She can, however, walk through fire and lava for a limited time, so she'd take an alternate path that involves fire obstacles.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Bolt The Cat

[The future]

^^I rather see Knuckles and Tails have the Spin Dash as well. This is a Sonic game, after all. And eliminate Amy as a playable character. She is too slow for a Sonic game. I rather see her in a supporting role such as flying the Tornado for Sonic, Knuckles, and Tails in flying levels.

Should make the Spin Dash with the crouch/ jump button for all playable characters.

[E-25]

And eliminate Amy as a playable character. She is too slow for a Sonic game.

Someone missed out on the only good Sonic game that came out after the turn of the century. Just do Advance 1 in 3D and you'd have a better formula for actually playing the game.

Edited January 2, 2012 by E-25

[Chaos Warp]

Someone missed out on the only good Sonic game that came out after the turn of the century. Just do Advance 1 in 3D and you'd have a better formula for actually playing the game.

Myself, I prefer the characters being a little more different then one move, I feel it gives me more reasons to play as them, instead of just sticking as Sonic.

[OlenJimi]

Amy was as fast as anyone else in the Advance games. And she is awesome, just make her voice less annoying and make her even a bit important.

"Bitch with hammer"

[Xenos]

Instead of the WAY too simple "Bitch with hammer"

...How about we give her some things from Advance 1?

Using the Piko Piko Hammer on springs will launch her up higher than usual, too high for Tails to fly, and to high of an elevation for Knuckles to glide down to. This will encourage the player to explore with her and use her often when trying to find stuff in high up places, where Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles can't reach.

She also doesn't have the Spin jump, so she can't hurt enemies with a normal jump. She has to rely on her hammer and moderate speed and handling to maneuver through obstacles safely.

Instead of a spindash, Amy would get a hammer curl. She will start tumbling forwards with the hammer spinning around/with her. It can still pick up speed, but it takes a bit longer. However, it makes up for this because it has a larger range in a way of attack compared to the smaller ball-up form of the spindash.

How's that, so far?

Edited January 2, 2012 by Xenos

[Diogenes]

To use [the spindash], you would roll by pressing B/O (it would replace Slide since it has little point anyway), then press the boost button.

Are you suggesting that you be able to spindash while rolling? Because I really don't like that idea.

Sonic's gameplay is fun, but it can't support the series by itself, so it's time to bring back other playables.

No, look.

If Sonic's gameplay isn't good enough to support the series, fix it so it can. Adding other characters to prop up mediocre/poor gameplay has never been the right answer. It was wrong in SA, it was wrong in SA2, it was wrong in Heroes, it was wrong in '06, it was wrong in Unleashed, and it's been wrong in any other game you can think of that does that.

The reason it worked in S3&K is because Sonic's gameplay was solid; it was a good idea refined over multiple games, and even if he had been the only playable character, S3&K still would've been a great game. If you don't have something like that as the backbone of the game, you're doing it wrong regardless of how many characters are playable.

Wall Jump (near padded walls)

I think limiting the wall jump (and climbing, and other similar moves) to a small subset of walls, or some specific wall-mounted object, is the wrong way to go about it. I do agree that there needs to be limits on what you can wall jump/climb/whatever on, but I also think there needs to be limits on what you can run on (as far as walls and ceilings, not so much floors), and I think in the vast majority of cases these can be served by the same thing. I picture it as rough vs smooth; rough walls/ceilings are used as boundaries, and you can't run, walljump, or climb on them, while smooth floors/walls/ceilings define where you can run/walljump/climb (excepting that you can't do the latter two on the floor, of course).

If you've played Portal, it's comparable to the white portalable surfaces vs the metallic brownish unportalable surfaces.

LB+RB+LT+RT- Super Sonic

This is just a clumsy, unnecessarily complicated input. Rework the controls/button scheme so you don't have to mash four buttons at once for a simple (if rare) action.

Tails

A/X- Jump; Fly (in midair); Wall Jump (near padded walls)

I think having flight and wall jumping is unnecessary, and putting them on the same button introduces unnecessary conflict.

Y/Triangle- Ring Bombs (okay, I know everyone hates these, but I need something to round out his moveset.

Sometimes it's better to say "I don't know what to put here" than to put something bad.

LB+RB+LT+RT- Super Tails (isn't it about time Tails got a Super Form again?)

No.

Knuckles

A/X- Jump; Glide (in midair. Climbable Walls will probably also be padded to restrict level design and keep people from doing crazy shortcuts.); Wall Jump (on padded walls)

Again, I don't really see the need for him to have both climbing and wall jumping.

X/Square- Punch; Uppercut (in midair); Tackle (while gliding. It's basically like the HA, except it can't be chained because Knuckles plows right through the enemy); Spin Dash (while rolling)

Y/Triangle- Drill Punch (Knuckles drills forward to attack); Drill (in midair. Basically, it functions like the Drill Wisp)

Y then X/Triangle then Square- Earthshaker

Does he really need this many attacks? Also how is this "drill" ability supposed to work in 3D?

X/Square- Hammer Attack (can also be spun around like in SA1)

That move was completely useless in SA; are you changing it in any way or is it equally useless here?

Y/Triangle- Hammer Catapault

Does this not overlap with the double jump?

X/Square- Boost; Spin Dash (when rolling); Chaos Control (in Chaos Boost mode)

X+Y/- Chaos Boost

So if your timing is a little off, instead of activating Chaos Boost, you regular Boost yourself off to who knows where. Also what exactly would Chaos Control do in this hypothetical game, and what exactly is the benefit of Chaos Boost?

Y then B/Triangle then O- Chaos Spear (it actually does damage this time, though); Chaos Lance (in Chaos Boost mode)

Clunky. Also what's the difference? Also wouldn't this require you to do a Chaos Blast while in Chaos Boost mode?

[NintendoSoul]

Wow, necro bump. Anyway I'm fine with what we have now, just open the levels up a little.

[Johnny Boy]

^^I rather see Knuckles and Tails have the Spin Dash as well. This is a Sonic game, after all. And eliminate Amy as a playable character. She is too slow for a Sonic game. I rather see her in a supporting role such as flying the Tornado for Sonic, Knuckles, and Tails in flying levels.

Should make the Spin Dash with the crouch/ jump button for all playable characters.

Looks like somebody didn't play the advance trilogy.

[Bolt The Cat]

^^I rather see Knuckles and Tails have the Spin Dash as well.

They do. Didn't you see it?

Myself, I prefer the characters being a little more different then one move, I feel it gives me more reasons to play as them, instead of just sticking as Sonic.

Like I said, since the movesets have become more complicated, they're going to have to vary more than just one or two moves. Honestly, people, did you actually read what I said?

Instead of the WAY too simple "Bitch with hammer"

...How about we give her some things from Advance 1?

Using the Piko Piko Hammer on springs will launch her up higher than usual, too high for Tails to fly, and to high of an elevation for Knuckles to glide down to. This will encourage the player to explore with her and use her often when trying to find stuff in high up places, where Sonic, Tails, and Knuckles can't reach.

She also doesn't have the Spin jump, so she can't hurt enemies with a normal jump. She has to rely on her hammer and moderate speed and handling to maneuver through obstacles safely.

Instead of a spindash, Amy would get a hammer curl. She will start tumbling forwards with the hammer spinning around/with her. It can still pick up speed, but it takes a bit longer. However, it makes up for this because it has a larger range in a way of attack compared to the smaller ball-up form of the spindash.

How's that, so far?

Most of what you said I already did, but I like the Hammer Curl idea. I'm not sure that would work for the purpose of allowing her through tight spaces, though.

Are you suggesting that you be able to spindash while rolling? Because I really don't like that idea.

What about this doesn't work? Spin Dash is a kind of boost move that you can use by rolling. It makes perfect sense.

If Sonic's gameplay isn't good enough to support the series, fix it so it can. Adding other characters to prop up mediocre/poor gameplay has never been the right answer. It was wrong in SA, it was wrong in SA2, it was wrong in Heroes, it was wrong in '06, it was wrong in Unleashed, and it's been wrong in any other game you can think of that does that.

It's not about that. If the series continues with Sola Sonica, people will eventually get bored with it. Especially in this fanbase, where there's been so many characters introduced that you disappoint a large majority of the fanbase if they all get axed. Bringing back a few of the more important characters with good gameplay can only help the series.

The reason it worked in S3&K is because Sonic's gameplay was solid; it was a good idea refined over multiple games, and even if he had been the only playable character, S3&K still would've been a great game. If you don't have something like that as the backbone of the game, you're doing it wrong regardless of how many characters are playable.

And how is that any different from the Modern gameplay style? It's the best gameplay we've had since, and if they include some more momentum based platforming, it'll be equally solid.

I think limiting the wall jump (and climbing, and other similar moves) to a small subset of walls, or some specific wall-mounted object, is the wrong way to go about it. I do agree that there needs to be limits on what you can wall jump/climb/whatever on, but I also think there needs to be limits on what you can run on (as far as walls and ceilings, not so much floors), and I think in the vast majority of cases these can be served by the same thing. I picture it as rough vs smooth; rough walls/ceilings are used as boundaries, and you can't run, walljump, or climb on them, while smooth floors/walls/ceilings define where you can run/walljump/climb (excepting that you can't do the latter two on the floor, of course).

If you've played Portal, it's comparable to the white portalable surfaces vs the metallic brownish unportalable surfaces.

Fair enough, but how you distinguish what surfaces you can climb/wall jump is irrelevant, just that such a distinction exists.

This is just a clumsy, unnecessarily complicated input. Rework the controls/button scheme so you don't have to mash four buttons at once for a simple (if rare) action.

All right, then. You come up with a button input that every character can use that doesn't conflict with other moves.

I think having flight and wall jumping is unnecessary, and putting them on the same button introduces unnecessary conflict.

Not really, since Wall Jumping would allow you to get more height/distance than flying in some circumstances.

Sometimes it's better to say "I don't know what to put here" than to put something bad.

To be fair, the Ring Bombs aren't by themselves bad, they're only bad when Tails has no other way to defend himself. It has potential, so why not?

Again, I don't really see the need for him to have both climbing and wall jumping.

That's actually a valid point. I forgot that they're basically similar.

Does he really need this many attacks?

Yes. Yes, he does. They all serve a purpose. Uppercut has the same function as it does with the Werehog's Sho-Hog-Ken in Unleashed HD (which is the move it's based on). It's used for attacking enemies above you, but it can also be used for platforming to give your jump an added boost. Tackle is a way for Knuckles to defend himself while gliding, and Earthshaker is for dealing with multiple enemies at once.

Also how is this "drill" ability supposed to work in 3D?

Hm, you're probably right. I don't think it would work in 3D.

That move was completely useless in SA; are you changing it in any way or is it equally useless here?

You mean spinning it, right? It's useful for combat if you're surrounded by enemies

Does this not overlap with the double jump?

Hammer Catapault makes you go higher than Double Jump. Also, you can only get a boost off springs by using this move.

So if your timing is a little off, instead of activating Chaos Boost, you regular Boost yourself off to who knows where. Also what exactly would Chaos Control do in this hypothetical game, and what exactly is the benefit of Chaos Boost?

Clunky. Also what's the difference? Also wouldn't this require you to do a Chaos Blast while in Chaos Boost mode?

Hm, maybe Shadow is a bit too combat oriented. All right, how about this? Remove Chaos Control and Chaos Lance. Chaos Boost stays and functions sort of like Unleashed mode in Unleashed HD (gives Shadow a boost in power and speed) and I'll work on remapping the controls to suit this change.

[E-25]

Like I said, since the movesets have become more complicated, they're going to have to vary more than just one or two moves. Honestly, people, did you actually read what I said?

You don't have to overcomplicate the controls just because the controllers have enough buttons to do so. The classics had 3 buttons that all did the same damn thing. Guess what; they've aged the best and are still held in high regard by most of the fanbase because they're easy to get into and there's extra depth in the game's mechanics.

[The future]

Looks like somebody didn't play the advance trilogy.

I prefer Amy in Advance 2 when she has her ball form and still has her unique hammer attacks.

[Xenos]

I prefer Amy in Advance 2 when she has her ball form and still has her unique hammer attacks.

The ball form is the reason I didn't bother with her.

It took the challenge of completing stages as Amy. I feel like she should be hard mode. And Dimps decided to make her "PINK Sonic with hammer!"

Tails and Knuckles have things that vary from Sonic, but Amy was unique in Advance 1. And I feel like there was some huge potential in there for her. Probably the easiest character to translate into 3D besides Tails.