3D Sonic games

[Tatsumaki]

This is terrible design.

[Diogenes]

They'd be happier if they got something that wasn't shit.

[Tatsumaki]

They'd be happier if they got something that wasn't shit.

[Tobbii]

How bout we just make green hill levels..... but WITHOUT checkered dirt!

Edited May 30, 2011 by Tobbii

[Scar]

Terrible design that a group of people like, whether you like it or not.

[thatguyfrom03]

C-C-C-Combo Breaker!!!

My ideal 3D style is simple. Take where Sonic Adventure level design left off, but much more expansive with numerous slopes and varying terrain. No rails, not tracks above bottomless pits. Physics resemble the classics, primarily regarding downward momentum. Initial Roster is like S3&K. Each character has a rolling attack and spin dash, but each maintains numerous different character quirks. (E.G Tails Spin Dash is fastest, Knuckles' sends foes flying back, Sonic's sends enemies skyward). What differentiates this from the typical "S3&K in 3D derp" is primarily how the characters(primarily Sonic)interact with their world.

Sonic's moveset is catered towared speed. He can't fly or climb, but can still use his speed to take shortcuts the others can't.

-Double Jump(Sonic R)

-Airdash(like colors w/out boost)

-Wall Jump(like Heroes)

-Sonic Drift

-short-hop(from unleashed/colors)

-Spin Dash/Roll cancel(can only be done once)

His base speed(unaffected by slopes) is his SA1 speed. His unique skill is Boost Mode like in Sonic Advance 2, the ability to break the sound barrier. Reached by maintaining top speed for a set period of time, once the sound barrier is broken, his speed cap is removed(well pushed much higher than the others). you continue gradually increasing speed from SA1 to borderline Unleashed levels, through the use of all of his moves during certain situations. Maintaining boost mode while not in an obvious "speed section" is essentially speed running. The game rewards you for using speedrunning techniques with more speed. I chose this format to allow a return to the old style platforming while maintaining elements of Unleashed as to not alienate it's fans.

if i go into into other characters it will be tl;dr. even moreso.

[Tatsumaki]

Except Unleashed didn't have a single point where there was nothing happening. Even in the straight-line boost segments you had to avoid obstacles and enemies and lazers.

Besides, having a really expansive stage, with an instant, quick, no-hassle way to the end, then the rest of the level will be meaningless, because nobody aside from fans will ever bother going to the other routes.

You're almost making us fans look like the minority, Scar. O.O

EDIT: I also forgot to tell ya this xD

I only said "terrible design" because apparently, there are people who detest this. I actually adore Unleashed gameplay, but however, it needs some improvement in the level design apartment. It's why I mentioned my first idea of alternate routes, and it does make sense what you say, but... (read above what I wrote here just now)

Either way, I stumbled upon a really interesting video.

It's a Speed Shoe hack a guy used in SADX to go in really high speeds.

If this were somewhat the top speed that could go on in a 3D Sonic game, (with additional effects to show that you're actually going fast like in Sonic Advance 2) I could kiss Boost goodbye.

In other words: SEGA could just use the same gameplay in Unleashed. Only this time, ZERO BOOST, ZERO LINEAR. Also, make Sonic a lot less slippery than he was in Unleashed and combine all the good things all 3D Sonic games in the past possessed. I really can't see SEGA using the engine used in Adventure; it would require a lot of testing to polish it, and I doubt there's much time left to do so. They'd be better off doing it from the ground up. Either way, the movement in Unleashed is pretty similar to Adventure in its own way, just a bit tighter when in normal speeds.. The boosting and awkward situations contradict this, but yeah.

Now I got two ideas for my ideal Sonic game.

C-C-C-Combo Breaker!!!

My ideal 3D style is simple. Take where Sonic Adventure level design left off, but much more expansive with numerous slopes and varying terrain. No rails, not tracks above bottomless pits. Physics resemble the classics, primarily regarding downward momentum. Initial Roster is like S3&K. Each character has a rolling attack and spin dash, but each maintains numerous different character quirks. (E.G Tails Spin Dash is fastest, Knuckles' sends foes flying back, Sonic's sends enemies skyward). What differentiates this from the typical "S3&K in 3D derp" is primarily how the characters(primarily Sonic)interact with their world.

Sonic's moveset is catered towared speed. He can't fly or climb, but can still use his speed to take shortcuts the others can't.

-Double Jump(Sonic R)

-Airdash(like colors w/out boost)

-Wall Jump(like Heroes)

-Sonic Drift

-short-hop(from unleashed/colors)

-Spin Dash/Roll cancel(can only be done once)

His base speed(unaffected by slopes) is his SA1 speed. His unique skill is Boost Mode like in Sonic Advance 2, the ability to break the sound barrier. Reached by maintaining top speed for a set period of time, once the sound barrier is broken, his speed cap is removed(well pushed much higher than the others). you continue gradually increasing speed from SA1 to borderline Unleashed levels, through the use of all of his moves during certain situations. Maintaining boost mode while not in an obvious "speed section" is essentially speed running. The game rewards you for using speedrunning techniques with more speed. I chose this format to allow a return to the old style platforming while maintaining elements of Unleashed as to not alienate it's fans.

if i go into into other characters it will be tl;dr. even moreso.

THIS.

Egad, I've been ninja'd.

Edited May 31, 2011 by Tatsumaki

[thatguyfrom03]

Just doing what I do.

One of the problems I have with Unleashed boosting is that its fast, no but theres no sense of speed. I'll explain that one.

1. It just GIVES you max speed in the press of a button. (Though Sonic Rush actually had ways to boost your speed, through timed jumps with pretty significant results)

2. Since Sonic's speed is relatively constant, no level feels particularly fast. If every level of Sonic 2 allowed you to reach CPZ speeds with ease, the zone wouldn't be special.

3. The games are built around the move, rather than created with the move in mind. Unleashed awkward controls during slower segments prove this. Hell, this couldn't even be fixed completely in Colors, a game built around other powers!

*Personal gripe warning*: When I first saw Unleashed, it didn't feel like Sonic was actually moving fast. It looked as if the Sonic's feet moved the same speed, and the the stage itself was moving forward at high speed. It's a very nitpicky gripe I admit. You don't have to take it seriously.

Unleashed had good mechanics that I feel could benefit from having tighter controls and used as ways to enhance speed rather than accommodating the boost. Well that's how I feel Sonic's playstyle could advance.

[Scar]

The Unleashed engine is suitable for any kind of gameplay. It just needs to be tweaked.

Of all the 3D engines, it has by far the best physics (Heroes was on the right track, but then they forgot to finish it or something), and can allow for greater stability at high-speeds and better control at low speeds. They just need to tweak it and improve it.

[ChikaBoing]

Combine the robust 2d Route system of Colors with the first 3d area of Eggmanland.

[Sami]

Really, the only things I could ask for at this point would be to have the boost make accelerate extremely quickly, rather than just shoot him forward like a bullet, straight to max speed, make Sonic's acceleration slower, causing him to control like he did in Adventure when at low speeds, and to build the level design with more alternate paths and platforming in mind. Throw in alternate characters that give an interesting new spin on Sonic's gameplay (i.e. Tails and his flight), and I'll have my perfect Sonic game.

[MobileChikane]

Re-release Sonic '06 with the name 'Sonic Adventure 3'. The idiots, under their nostalgia fanboy goggles, would eat it up in a heartbeat. Best selling Sonic game of all time.

But seriously, i'd try and make a Adventure/Unleashed hybrid. And like Sean says, a 3D game which is actually 3D. Not '2.5D'. That said, i thoroughly enjoy the Unleashed styled gameplay.

Edited May 31, 2011 by MobileChikane

[Scar]

A game where its only 2D when its necessary or when it makes sense. Like up agaist a cliff-face, otherwise its pointless.

[Rusty Spy]

I don't mind either way, as long as they DON'T do what they did in Colors and make 80% of every level in 2D.

[Tobbii]

And for those who don't care about them, like say, Tobbii and yourself, sure, removing them didn't really change anything, but then you have to ask why you gave a crap and wanted them gone in the first place. Is it really that harmless of a tradition?

I don't like them, they've gotten to an annoying level in my opinnion and I thought this thread was about writing what you wanted in your perfect 3D Sonic game, and if I want my 3D Sonic game to be perfect I'll take no Checkered Hills thank you.

[Tatsumaki]

I don't mind either way, as long as they DON'T do what they did in Colors and make 80% of every level in 2D.

Yep, that wasn't much good. But you also have to remember that Colors went monumentally forward in comparison Sonic Unleashed Wii.

I suppose the Wii couldn't manage too much 3D action, with what all the new gameplay and graphical improvements it had.

I don't like them, they've gotten to an annoying level in my opinnion and I thought this thread was about writing what you wanted in your perfect 3D Sonic game, and if I want my 3D Sonic game to be perfect I'll take no Checkered Hills thank you.

Checkered hills are getting preeetty annoying. Green Hill Zone innuendo can leave forevermore, if you ask me.

It's about time Sonic should change his perspective, (get it? hahaha... NO.)and just get on with it. Sonic will attract many fans with Generations. If it manages to get the sales all of us expect from it, SEGA needs to make sure that their next 3D Sonic the Hedgehog video game is GOLDEN. If we need to remove the boost (or just put it as a rare power-up that isn't found in many stages)to make the games better, I say GO FOR IT.

I want the upcoming Sonic games to kick Sonic Adventure's ass; tenfold.

Edited May 31, 2011 by Tatsumaki

[Kuzu]

Yep, that wasn't much good. But you also have to remember that Colors went monumentally forward in comparison Sonic Unleashed Wii.

I suppose the Wii couldn't manage too much 3D action, with what all the new gameplay and graphical improvements it had.

[Tatsumaki]

Comparing those two isn't much of a comparison. Colors may have been better than Unwiished, but it was still average at best for a 3D platformer, and I can see why people are miffed that most of the game is 2D.

I know using Galaxy as an example is overdone, but its the best platformer for the Wii so what'cha gonna do? Both Galaxy and Galaxy 2 have these wide open environments that you can explore and intereact, while with Sonic Unleashed/Colors you're confined to a set path, and more or less forced to go forward and nothing else, now I'm not saying I want more exploration in the games, but wider levels really wouldn't hurt, as it would allow to find new ways to get to the end of the level.

[Phos]

Recently I stumbled upon a pretty good metaphor for the sensation of the Unleashed style: It's like taking a train through an area rather than actually being there. The rest of the world is very much window dressing. This is made worse by how there are very few actual obstructions that you have to find a way around, just hazards and obstacles. Changing direction is accomplished not by the player but by the springs and boost pads and for every one moment the player spends playing there are many moments spent basically watching.

That's what I aim to get rid off. It's also possible to have controls that allow control without twitchyness.

[Scar]

Recently I stumbled upon a pretty good metaphor for the sensation of the Unleashed style: It's like taking a train through an area rather than actually being there. The rest of the world is very much window dressing. This is made worse by how there are very few actual obstructions that you have to find a way around, just hazards and obstacles. Changing direction is accomplished not by the player but by the springs and boost pads and for every one moment the player spends playing there are many moments spent basically watching.

That's what I aim to get rid off. It's also possible to have controls that allow control without twitchyness.

I'm pretty sure the Generations gameplay engine can facilitate this. If you're talking about physics and momentum and all that, Unleashed had the most accurate of any 3D Sonic game, and Generations is obviously based on that engine. Further improvements on low-speed controls can be seen in City Escape, which requires movement without boost-spam.

So all you need to do is modify from here on outwards. Remove boost, replace with rolling/spindash. That's all I suppose.

Right now all Sonic Team themselves need to do is work on the level design. That is the source of the 'problem' not the existing mechanics. Perhaps the boost, but that really can be modified or removed with ease. Its one button, that can just be replaced with something comprable to the spindash (obviously, adjusted to 3D). Level design in Sonic games has never been focused directly on exploration (which is a massive misconception in my opinion), because having access to different paths to reach the same ending doesn't qualify as exploring. Sonic games focus should never really be on exploration, just getting to the end, whilst traversing through obstacles and level design elements, whilst using the quickest and most effective route to the end.

Of course the most effective way of doing this would be to utilise a series of descrete routes. Which I know Phos objects to , but its the best way to go. Each route, can have as many short-cuts and little mini-routes as they want, and each of the major routes should usually be intertwined with the other routes, so that its possible to switch between routes. The Width of the z-axis should be used to provide enough platforming but shouldn't be so wide open and massive that the level design is spread too thinly.

Of course interesting terrain is a must. Hills, trenches and all that should be there, having a flat level would be entirely boring.

Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with where you're coming from here. I'm sorry about all this nonsense that I've mostly caused.

I dunno where to go from here. I still feel like there's some breakdown of communication about about the strange nature of the challenge seen in the relevant Sonic games.

You can continue that discussion here. Talking about the flaws of the Unleashed design, talking about potential flaws in Generations, and potential solutions and all that jaxx here. It won't be off-topic here, because that is what this topic was designed for. Also, please can we stop being so condescending to each other.

[Djawed]

Honestly i've been hating unleashed gameplay ever since i've finished sonic unleashed. I felt empty and did feel as I mostly was being automated through nasty designed stages made to punish you for playing the game as the game expects you to.

While i'm still not really fond to it, sonic generations shows alot of promise as it looks really less of the description above. It looks rather good with alot more depth than unleashed.

One thing I will always dislike about unleashed is the lack of free movement though. All you get is narrow paths which is why people sometimes compare it's "linearity" with sonic adventure 2. A 3d sonic game without 3d free movement is silly imo.

Edited June 18, 2011 by Jaouad

[Scar]

Its like I said. Unleashed proposed the intial concept. Colours gave it a new direction and Generations is taking it forwards.

The engine itself is near perfect. We have to wait till the Generations demo to get a true feeling for the 3D movement, but aside from that, all the key physics principles are preserved. We have inertia, momentum, downhill acceleration etc. Controls need refinement, but hey, it takes time.

Its the level design which needs work, and that's what they seem to be dealing with here.

[HyperGogeta]

I would design it with a Sonic Heroes style gameplY, except only speed formation.

Tails and Knux would have their own stages, with Point A-B stages aNd no hunting.

Special stages would be Hero Style. Or Colors.

[Tatsumaki]

Can't see why SEGA would need to do that, as Unleashed is in a way, and improvement over SA1, SA2, Heroes, 06, and Sonic Rush.

[Rusty Spy]

Okay. And? Please tell me how exactly does this ONE game (along with another game we know, yet don't know because it never happened) eliminate what is the true essence of a Sonic game that doesn't involve guns and mildly vulgar language?

Your claiming that Sonic has been the most loyal to his past and his more full of nostalgia than any other video game character, more so than even Mario. Citing Shadow alone shows that that notion is complete bullshit. And if I really wanted to be picky, I could also include every 3D Sonic game between 1999 and 2006 besides Heroes (and MAYBE SA1) that also prove this point.

Mario on the other hand has been FAR more consistent than Sonic ever was; from Mario 64 to Galaxy 2, you look at any of those games and you'd instantly recognize it as Mario. You can place each classic game side by side with any modern game and there'd be little juxtaposition between them. Do the same with Sonic and you see a pretty big difference.

I would design it with a Sonic Heroes style gameplY, except only speed formation.

Tails and Knux would have their own stages, with Point A-B stages aNd no hunting.

Special stages would be Hero Style. Or Colors.

So..... Sonic Adventure without Treasure Hunting and Special Stages?

Edited June 18, 2011 by Black Spy