3D Sonic games

[Diogenes]

What about this doesn't work? Spin Dash is a kind of boost move

Nope. Part of the balance of the spindash is that it can't be used while moving. This means there's some amount of effort and/or planning involved in Sonic's gravity-defying stunts, since he doesn't have an infinite capacity for speed.

People prefer the spindash over the boost for reasons beyond aesthetics.

It's not about that. If the series continues with Sola Sonica, people will eventually get bored with it.

Just like people are bored of Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Donkey Kong...if people would get bored of the series simply because it has one playable character, either they have ADHD and would get bored of anything or there's something wrong with the gameplay.

Especially in this fanbase, where there's been so many characters introduced that you disappoint a large majority of the fanbase if they all get axed.

I am not suggesting that we axe anyone. I would like to have more playable characters, in fact. But your reasoning is wrong and distracts from more important issues.

Bringing back a few of the more important characters with good gameplay can only help the series.

Or it can be a lazy patch distracting both the players and the designers from the actual problems with the gameplay, the same way it's been in so many other Sonic games.

And how is that any different from the Modern gameplay style? It's the best gameplay we've had since,

That's not exactly shining praise. The modern gameplay is too restrictive, forward-focused, and automated. It doesn't offer anything unique besides shallow speed.

Fair enough, but how you distinguish what surfaces you can climb/wall jump is irrelevant, just that such a distinction exists.

No, I believe there's a significant difference in the two mindsets. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I interpret your mindset is "like how Generations does it, but with more jump pads". That is, you can only walljump where they specifically allow you to, but there's more of them than in Generations. Whereas the way I see it, they should allow you to walljump anywhere, except where they specifically disallow you. It's the difference between walljumpable walls being the default or a special case.

All right, then. You come up with a button input that every character can use that doesn't conflict with other moves.

I have neither the time nor motivation to dig up one of my old ideas or to recreate them, and likewise for reorganizing someone else's ideas. But to act as if there's no way to do it better than this is arrogant.

Not really, since Wall Jumping would allow you to get more height/distance than flying in some circumstances.

Could this not be a way to differentiate paths for different characters?

To be fair, the Ring Bombs aren't by themselves bad, they're only bad when Tails has no other way to defend himself. It has potential, so why not?

I think they are bad. They're nonsensical (honestly they seem like a repurposed debugging element, considering it spawns a bunch of physics objects and they showed it off in that first '06 teaser), out of character, not especially useful or necessary, and not fun.

Yes. Yes, he does. They all serve a purpose. Uppercut has the same function as it does with the Werehog's Sho-Hog-Ken in Unleashed HD (which is the move it's based on). It's used for attacking enemies above you,

So's jumping.

but it can also be used for platforming to give your jump an added boost.

The guy already glides and climbs, and if the game has anything resembling classic Sonic physics he can run/spindash and jump off angled terrain. I don't think he needs a clumsy punch-jump.

Tackle is a way for Knuckles to defend himself while gliding,

He already smashes anything he runs into while gliding.

and Earthshaker is for dealing with multiple enemies at once.

This is a Sonic game, hordes of enemies are generally not good design.

You mean spinning it, right? It's useful for combat if you're surrounded by enemies

Again, hordes of enemies are not good design in a Sonic game. And if you aren't changing it from how it worked in SA, it's more likely to get you killed than to help you out. It really was utterly worthless in that game, and having more things trying to hit you while you use it is not going to make it more useful. A simple hammer attack would be faster and more effective.

Hammer Catapault makes you go higher than Double Jump. Also, you can only get a boost off springs by using this move.

So why do we have the double jump?

Hm, maybe Shadow is a bit too combat oriented. All right, how about this? Remove Chaos Control and Chaos Lance. Chaos Boost stays and functions sort of like Unleashed mode in Unleashed HD (gives Shadow a boost in power and speed) and I'll work on remapping the controls to suit this change.

At what point is power going to come into play? You aren't seriously suggesting enemy health bars, are you?

[Chaos Warp]

The other problem I have with the Modern formula, at this point, is the controls. They are great, but not quite their yet. At low speeds, Sonic needs to be able to turn on a dime without losing much speed, ala Adventure. The faster he goes, the wider his turning arc should get, but if you turn hard, you should be able to make a losing-speed hard turn. His acceleration should be fixed, because in Generations, when you get to a certain speed, his acceleration rate rises sharply and it's really hard to turn while this is happening, so make acceleration more consistent. At high speeds, he should make a wide arc; Not barely able to turn ala Generations, but a wide arc. Then, the controls would be perfect.

Thoughts?

At what point is power going to come into play? You aren't seriously suggesting enemy health bars, are you?

Maybe not taking down stronger enemies, but taking more down faster?

[Diogenes]

Turning is probably the one big question I have regarding 3D Sonic. On the one hand, the instant response of the Adventure games is, well, very responsive, and works great at low speeds, keeping you fully in control. On the other, it can get twitchy at high speeds, and restricting your movement can actually leave you more in control. And it doesn't help that it's not easy to work these things out purely in your head, and that I don't really have any way to test them.

I think the ideal controls are going to be something complex, maybe with some sort of nonlinear turn-dampening (say the game doesn't restrict turning at all up until a certain speed, at which point it gradually increases the restriction the faster you go) and/or using additional moves to handle situations where the standard turning doesn't work properly (like how the drift lets you make sharper turns at high speeds). It's something that would take a lot of fiddling with, I think...

Maybe not taking down stronger enemies, but taking more down faster?

How exactly does that equate to power? What would it change that allows him to take out more enemies quicker?

Also I slapped together a control scheme again (360 controller).

Left Stick: Movement

Right Stick: Camera control

A: Jump/Air action (Sonic: Homing Attack, Tails: Fly, Knuckles: Glide, etc)

B: Stomp/Bounce, maybe?

X: Attack (standing, midair, dashing)

Y: Other (equipped skills, Super Sonic, whatever)

L Trigger: Run (increases acceleration and top speed when held; may have other effects depending on the character)

R Trigger: Crouch/Roll (I haven't decided between holding it to stay curled or toggling back and forth)

L Bumper: Some kind of drift, maybe? A brake?

R Bumper: Attach (spins the character so he can "attach" to a surface he's pressing against and start running on it, assuming he's got enough speed to stick to it)

Crouch plus jump to spindash, you can curl/uncurl at will (using it to drop out of flight as Tails, for example), Sonic has a wall jump, the homing attack bounces past enemies instead of straight up, proper Sonic physics apply.

[Bolt The Cat]

Nope. Part of the balance of the spindash is that it can't be used while moving. This means there's some amount of effort and/or planning involved in Sonic's gravity-defying stunts, since he doesn't have an infinite capacity for speed.

People prefer the spindash over the boost for reasons beyond aesthetics.

That's the reason I find Spin Dash so annoying, you keep having to stop and start and stop and start. The biggest problem with Sonic is that there's no balance between speed and platforming. And not everyone likes Spin Dash over boost, there are a fair amount that

like the sheer sense of speed of Modern gameplay, and going back to Classic style would take that feeling away. The high speed gameplay is what makes the series unique, and a lot of Classic games feel like generic platformers. So removing boost would be a bad idea, whether you like it or not. And Spin Dash would still stop you to charge up, it's just that you'd need to roll first.

Just like people are bored of Mario, Zelda, Metroid, Donkey Kong...if people would get bored of the series simply because it has one playable character, either they have ADHD and would get bored of anything or there's something wrong with the gameplay.

I am not suggesting that we axe anyone. I would like to have more playable characters, in fact. But your reasoning is wrong and distracts from more important issues.

Or it can be a lazy patch distracting both the players and the designers from the actual problems with the gameplay, the same way it's been in so many other Sonic games.

That's assuming there's much wrong with the modern gameplay to begin with. Add in more momentum based platforming and the Modern gameplay should be fine.

That's not exactly shining praise. The modern gameplay is too restrictive, forward-focused, and automated. It doesn't offer anything unique besides shallow speed.

Sky Sanctuary and Crisis City aren't like that at all. They just need to make the levels more like them.

No, I believe there's a significant difference in the two mindsets. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I interpret your mindset is "like how Generations does it, but with more jump pads". That is, you can only walljump where they specifically allow you to, but there's more of them than in Generations. Whereas the way I see it, they should allow you to walljump anywhere, except where they specifically disallow you. It's the difference between walljumpable walls being the default or a special case.

That's kind of what I'd want to do.

I have neither the time nor motivation to dig up one of my old ideas or to recreate them, and likewise for reorganizing someone else's ideas. But to act as if there's no way to do it better than this is arrogant.

Not really. It's just a problem with controller mapping. That's not being "arrogant".

So's jumping.

No, that's too easy if you can just jump into anything to kill it.

The guy already glides and climbs, and if the game has anything resembling classic Sonic physics he can run/spindash and jump off angled terrain. I don't think he needs a clumsy punch-jump.

The same could be said for the Werehog, and yet you'll see people using it as a jump move occasionally. How is this any different?

He already smashes anything he runs into while gliding.

Again, that'd be too easy if he can just plow through everything while gliding. It makes him almost invincible.

So why do we have the double jump?

Double Jump isn't momentum based so it's easier to use.

At what point is power going to come into play? You aren't seriously suggesting enemy health bars, are you?

Having enemies that take more than one hit to kill isn't a bad thing in small doses. Kind of like in Rush.

The other problem I have with the Modern formula, at this point, is the controls. They are great, but not quite their yet. At low speeds, Sonic needs to be able to turn on a dime without losing much speed, ala Adventure. The faster he goes, the wider his turning arc should get, but if you turn hard, you should be able to make a losing-speed hard turn. His acceleration should be fixed, because in Generations, when you get to a certain speed, his acceleration rate rises sharply and it's really hard to turn while this is happening, so make acceleration more consistent. At high speeds, he should make a wide arc; Not barely able to turn ala Generations, but a wide arc. Then, the controls would be perfect.

Thoughts?

I didn't have any problems with the Drift in Generations, just in Unleashed HD (I had to stop boosting in order to get Drift to work without me careening off into a pit). I did, however, find HA and Light Dash to be very finicky in some spots, and that's something they do need to work on.

How exactly does that equate to power? What would it change that allows him to take out more enemies quicker?

I think he's saying that Chaos Boost should only make Shadow faster. If that is indeed the case, it could still have a point. It'd be like Speed Shoes basically. The downside to using this, though, would be that it drains the boost gauge, and if you boost in Chaos Boost, it'd drain twice as fast.

This brings up another idea of mine, using the boost gauge for special abilities like Chaos Boost or Flight. This would serve to limit boosting a bit more, since you have to use the boost gauge for other things. I haven't completely worked out what abilities would use the boost gauge, though.

Also I slapped together a control scheme again (360 controller).

Left Stick: Movement

Right Stick: Camera control

A: Jump/Air action (Sonic: Homing Attack, Tails: Fly, Knuckles: Glide, etc)

B: Stomp/Bounce, maybe?

X: Attack (standing, midair, dashing)

Y: Other (equipped skills, Super Sonic, whatever)

L Trigger: Run (increases acceleration and top speed when held; may have other effects depending on the character)

R Trigger: Crouch/Roll (I haven't decided between holding it to stay curled or toggling back and forth)

L Bumper: Some kind of drift, maybe? A brake?

R Bumper: Attach (spins the character so he can "attach" to a surface he's pressing against and start running on it, assuming he's got enough speed to stick to it)

Crouch plus jump to spindash, you can curl/uncurl at will (using it to drop out of flight as Tails, for example), Sonic has a wall jump, the homing attack bounces past enemies instead of straight up, proper Sonic physics apply.

I'm not sure some of these are useful. Stomp/Bounce would be a midair move, why can't you just map Crouch to B? I hadn't considered a braking move, but that might actually be a good idea, especially for less skilled gamers who wouldn't be able to handle platforming at higher speeds. And Attach seems kind of useless, you should be able to attach to walls automatically if you build up enough momentum.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Bolt The Cat

[Dreamcast]

I find the double jump more intuitive with momentum, I'll take the S3&K Lightning Shield over LOLColours jumping any day xD

[Diogenes]

That's the reason I find Spin Dash so annoying, you keep having to stop and start and stop and start.

The point is to learn the mechanics and the level so that you can chain your momentum and avoid most instances of stopping to spindash. If you have to rely on the spindash as often as you make it out, you have probably failed to be Sonic.

And not everyone likes Spin Dash over boost, there are a fair amount that

like the sheer sense of speed of Modern gameplay, and going back to Classic style would take that feeling away.

And I think they are supporting a shallow gameplay style that is going to keep the series wallowing in mediocrity until something changes.

The high speed gameplay is what makes the series unique,

There are plenty of other games where you go fast. Not platformers so much, to be fair, but I don't believe being fast and flashy is good enough, not for a series that used to be smarter than that. And it's not as if I'm suggesting slow, plodding gameplay; I like speed too, I just don't think constant cheap speed is fun for more than a few minutes.

and a lot of Classic games feel like generic platformers.

Maybe if you're playing them wrong.

So removing boost would be a bad idea, whether you like it or not.

You didn't do anything to prove this.

And Spin Dash would still stop you to charge up, it's just that you'd need to roll first.

Regardless of everything else, why require the player to roll first?

That's assuming there's much wrong with the modern gameplay to begin with.

That's the assumption I roll with, yes.

Sky Sanctuary and Crisis City aren't like that at all.

Sky Sanctuary pretty much still is, Crisis City is just boring, blocky, and repetitive.

Not really. It's just a problem with controller mapping. That's not being "arrogant".

"Well let's see you do it then" is arrogant. It implies that I can't because you've already done it as best as possible. And I ended up doing a perfectly competent setup above anyway.

No, that's too easy if you can just jump into anything to kill it.

Hey, welcome to Sonic, did you know this is a platformer and not a brawler? That's why you can just jump into things to kill them. Y'know, like he has since Sonic-fucking-1.

The same could be said for the Werehog, and yet you'll see people using it as a jump move occasionally. How is this any different?

The werehog cannot glide, can only climb on very limited surfaces, and does not have the physics necessary to ramp off of stuff, so no, the same could not be said for the werehog. Knuckles has plenty of ways to reach higher platforms as it is, he does not need some silly punch-jump.

Again, that'd be too easy if he can just plow through everything while gliding. It makes him almost invincible.

Except you can't punch a bullet. And again: platformer. Not brawler.

Double Jump isn't momentum based so it's easier to use.

Still doesn't seem at all necessary.

Having enemies that take more than one hit to kill isn't a bad thing in small doses. Kind of like in Rush.

It was in fact a bad thing in Rush, as they were annoying wastes of time in kill-rooms and pointless elsewhere (were they even anywhere outside the kill-rooms? It's been a while...).

[Chaos Warp]

I didn't have any problems with the Drift in Generations, just in Unleashed HD (I had to stop boosting in order to get Drift to work without me careening off into a pit). I did, however, find HA and Light Dash to be very finicky in some spots, and that's something they do need to work on.

It's not the Drift I was talking about, it was the way Sonic handles normally. The Drift is fine as it is now.

[Celestia]

Multi-hit enemies in Rush were outside of the "kill all enemies to get through" rooms, it's just that the majority of them had multi-hit enemies, and that's the only place they're really annoying. Elsewhere, you can just avoid them/boost through them.

[Bolt The Cat]

The point is to learn the mechanics and the level so that you can chain your momentum and avoid most instances of stopping to spindash. If you have to rely on the spindash as often as you make it out, you have probably failed to be Sonic.

Most of the platforming in the classics was almost as blocky as Colors. There were many sections of the level that involved stopping to do a platforming section.

And I think they are supporting a shallow gameplay style that is going to keep the series wallowing in mediocrity until something changes.

And this is the point where it comes down to a matter of opinion. You like Sonic to be a pure platformer. I think he'd be great as a hybrid racer/platformer. Neither style is really better than the other.

There are plenty of other games where you go fast. Not platformers so much, to be fair, but I don't believe being fast and flashy is good enough, not for a series that used to be smarter than that. And it's not as if I'm suggesting slow, plodding gameplay; I like speed too, I just don't think constant cheap speed is fun for more than a few minutes.

Exactly, that balance of speed and platforming is something not seen in any other series, and what makes Sonic unique. I don't mind levels that aren't simply long racetracks (TBH, I can agree that they're not really a good thing for this series), but the same level of speed needs to be there.

Regardless of everything else, why require the player to roll first?

Does it really matter?

That's the assumption I roll with, yes.

It's not an accurate one, though.

Sky Sanctuary pretty much still is,

You've got to be kidding me. Sky Sanctuary is the most open Modern level to date. Granted, it still could be a bit less linear, but it's not that linear.

Crisis City is just boring, blocky, and repetitive.

Maybe you're playing that level wrong. The beauty of some of the more platforming oriented Modern levels in Generations is that the platforming involves split second judgments. Should I Air Boost to this platform or is a simple Jump Dash enough? I like this approach to the platforming and I'd like to see it expanded upon in future games.

Hey, welcome to Sonic, did you know this is a platformer and not a brawler? That's why you can just jump into things to kill them. Y'know, like he has since Sonic-fucking-1.

Except you can't punch a bullet. And again: platformer. Not brawler.

It has nothing to do with whether or not Sonic is a brawler. Allowing you to simply jump into enemies is too easy, it almost makes you invincible. Simple jumping should only work if the enemy has a weak spot.

Still doesn't seem at all necessary.

It's easier for less skilled gamers to use, plus it'd be better for precision platforming.

It was in fact a bad thing in Rush, as they were annoying wastes of time in kill-rooms and pointless elsewhere (were they even anywhere outside the kill-rooms? It's been a while...).

Okay, but still, what exactly is wrong with the ocassional tough enemy?

[Tornado]

I would have hoped after Heroes that no one would ever again think that requiring normal enemies take multiple hits to kill was a good idea.

[Bolt The Cat]

I would have hoped after Heroes that no one would ever again think that requiring normal enemies take multiple hits to kill was a good idea.

That doesn't answer my question.

[Chaos Warp]

I would have hoped after Heroes that no one would ever again think that requiring normal enemies take multiple hits to kill was a good idea.

This. It really breaks the flow of the game, and it just doesn't feel like Sonic to wail on an enemy for more then one hit to me. We can still make enemies more challenging though. Give them more defences, but a weak spot so you can still bop them fast, it just takes more skill.

[Tornado]

That doesn't answer my question.

You advocate speedy gameplay, to the extent that you complain about the Stop/Start that the Spindash would cause compared to the boost and an emphasis on platforming would ruin the flow synonymous with modern Sonic games.

Then you turn around and advocate the single most absurdly sequence-breaking idea the series ever tried. Because why not?

Why not? Because it is a terrible idea. It is completely contradictory to your argument, and the game that they tried it in showed full well just how badly it meshed with the series.

Edited January 2, 2012 by Tornado

[E-25]

Exactly, that balance of speed and platforming is something not seen in any other series, and what makes Sonic unique. I don't mind levels that aren't simply long racetracks (TBH, I can agree that they're not really a good thing for this series), but the same level of speed needs to be there.

That level of speed also ends up requiring that it have long stretches and cinematic moments or else you'd be hitting walls or falling off levels constantly.

Okay, but still, what exactly is wrong with the ocassional tough enemy?

There have been, and they didn't need health bars; they had natural defenses built in in the form of spikes, shields, and orbinaut balls.

That said, I'm sticking with having simpler controls and more controllable gameplay that allows for exploration and backtracking to a better extent.

[Scar]

Multi-hit enemies are not fast or fluid. They take up time that could be used for platforming.

Sonic was, is and should remain a platformer that has the capacity to go fast.

I should also point out that challenging enemies have never been the point of Sonic games, they're just there to force you to move in a slightly different way so you can dodge them or take them out. They aren't there for you to actively fight, they should always take 1 hit to dismiss.

End of story.

[Diogenes]

This brings up another idea of mine, using the boost gauge for special abilities like Chaos Boost or Flight. This would serve to limit boosting a bit more, since you have to use the boost gauge for other things. I haven't completely worked out what abilities would use the boost gauge, though.

The big question is what other ability(/ies) Sonic would have that uses it. Because if he doesn't have a damn good one, you're going to end up crippling the other characters more than him.

Stomp/Bounce would be a midair move, why can't you just map Crouch to B?

I have the spindash mapped to crouch+jump. We have four fingers with which to press buttons and wiggle joysticks; why lay out the controls such that there's a move that requires one finger to use two buttons at the same time when we don't have to?

And Attach seems kind of useless, you should be able to attach to walls automatically if you build up enough momentum.

The point is to differentiate between falling or running against a wall and trying to run on the wall. You'd still be able to transfer from floor to wall just by running up a curve, but this allows you to do more complex things than that without the game deciding to make you stick to things when you don't want to.

Most of the platforming in the classics was almost as blocky as Colors. There were many sections of the level that involved stopping to do a platforming section.

First, no, they generally were not as blocky as Colors. Second, while there were instances of blockiness, there were plenty of places where you could keep some or all of your speed if you knew what you were doing.

And this is the point where it comes down to a matter of opinion. You like Sonic to be a pure platformer.

Wrong. At least in so much as I don't want it to be a generic low-speed jump-on-blocks platformer.

I think he'd be great as a hybrid racer/platformer.

What does this even mean?

Neither style is really better than the other.

One of them is actually what Sonic is about.

Exactly, that balance of speed and platforming is something not seen in any other series, and what makes Sonic unique.

It may be what makes Sonic unique now, but it's not the only thing that made him unique in the Genesis days.

I don't mind levels that aren't simply long racetracks (TBH, I can agree that they're not really a good thing for this series), but the same level of speed needs to be there.

No they do not. Sonic needs to be fast, but he does not need to be as fast as possible all the time.

Does it really matter?

Do you actually give a shit about game design? Because if you did you'd know that is not a question to ask.

It's not an accurate one, though.

Yes, yes, you argue that some people like the modern gameplay and now suddenly you think that makes your opinion more factual than mine, I've been through these arguments before.

You've got to be kidding me. Sky Sanctuary is the most open Modern level to date.

And that is sad.

Maybe you're playing that level wrong. The beauty of some of the more platforming oriented Modern levels in Generations is that the platforming involves split second judgments.

The beauty of memorize or die/fail, huh. No thanks. And I'm not really sure how my method of playing is going to change the shape of the level, or how boring it is to stomp or homing attack a bunch of things.

It has nothing to do with whether or not Sonic is a brawler.

It has everything to do with that. You are proposing expanding the combat of the series, that is, adding brawler elements. If Sonic is not a brawler, they do not belong here.

Allowing you to simply jump into enemies is too easy, it almost makes you invincible.

Yes, because you've never taken damage in any game before Heroes. Seriously, have you even played a Sonic game?

It's easier for less skilled gamers to use, plus it'd be better for precision platforming.

If you can't do precision platforming with a normal jump, there's a problem. And if the hammer jump is so difficult that you'd need a different move for newbies to use until they figured out how to use it properly (at which point the double jump becomes redundant), there's a problem.

Okay, but still, what exactly is wrong with the ocassional tough enemy?

Because they waste time, and have nothing to do with Sonic gameplay. Sonic is not a brawler, it does not focus on fighting enemies, and when it has, it's been bad. And like Tornado said, you complain about having to take a moment to rev a spindash, but you're proposing they drop a bunch of meat blocks for the player to beat up? Doesn't make sense. Edited January 2, 2012 by Diogenes

[Indigo Rush]

In this debate, I am on Team Dio.

I'm all for making the spin-dash the kind of move that you need to stand still to initiate, but making it a crouch-jump combo doesn't exactly fit the mental control-mapping I have. I don't have a lot of time to write it out at the moment, but I think mixing the idea that Adventure 2 had (tapping the button while standing still = somersault/some quick melee attack), Sonic 3D Blast (tapping it while in motion puts Sonic in spin-ball mode) in addition to standing still and holding the button to charge a spin-dash is the way to do it with a single button.

There are certainly other ways to do it, but if you want to do it with one button, I think that's the best way. You still have to stop in place to charge the spin-dash, and you can't spam it. But that's my personal opinion.

[Bolt The Cat]

That level of speed also ends up requiring that it have long stretches and cinematic moments or else you'd be hitting walls or falling off levels constantly.

Again, Sky Sanctuary and Crisis City have proved otherwise.

The big question is what other ability(/ies) Sonic would have that uses it. Because if he doesn't have a damn good one, you're going to end up crippling the other characters more than him.

In what way would that cripple the other characters? If anything, it'd be the other way around.

I have the spindash mapped to crouch+jump. We have four fingers with which to press buttons and wiggle joysticks; why lay out the controls such that there's a move that requires one finger to use two buttons at the same time when we don't have to?

Well using the jump button to Spin Dash is a bad idea, because what would you do if you wanted to crouch/roll and jump?

The point is to differentiate between falling or running against a wall and trying to run on the wall. You'd still be able to transfer from floor to wall just by running up a curve, but this allows you to do more complex things than that without the game deciding to make you stick to things when you don't want to.

Fair enough, I guess. That's actually a pretty good idea, then.

First, no, they generally were not as blocky as Colors. Second, while there were instances of blockiness, there were plenty of places where you could keep some or all of your speed if you knew what you were doing.

Not unless you were insanely good at Sonic games.

Wrong. At least in so much as I don't want it to be a generic low-speed jump-on-blocks platformer.

Well the Classics aren't that far away.

What does this even mean?

I mean high speed platforming.

One of them is actually what Sonic is about.

Who are you to say that? Sonic has changed (I'd say evolved) over the years, what Sonic is about is different and the series means something different to everyone. Just because you hate Modern gameplay doesn't mean you can tell the Modern fans to go fuck off (which is exactly what you're doing BTW), the gameplay still has speed and platforming, and that's enough to make it a valid gameplay style. So deal with it.

It may be what makes Sonic unique now, but it's not the only thing that made him unique in the Genesis days.

All right, then humor me. What else was so great about the Classics, because other than what I've said, I see nothing about the series that sets it apart from other Classic platformers.

No they do not. Sonic needs to be fast, but he does not need to be as fast as possible all the time.

Again, now we're coming down to a matter of opinions. There's nothing about the speed that makes it not a valid gameplay style. It's a matter of the direction Sonic Team wants to go in, and they seem more or less content with the Modern gameplay.

Do you actually give a shit about game design? Because if you did you'd know that is not a question to ask.

It really doesn't.

Yes, yes, you argue that some people like the modern gameplay and now suddenly you think that makes your opinion more factual than mine, I've been through these arguments before.

No, you are the one who's acting like your opinion is fact. Just because you happen to like the Classic gameplay doesn't mean it's the best thing for the series.

The beauty of memorize or die/fail, huh. No thanks. And I'm not really sure how my method of playing is going to change the shape of the level, or how boring it is to stomp or homing attack a bunch of things.

It's not trial and error, you actually have to think about what you're doing instead of just blindly trying a random move.

It has everything to do with that. You are proposing expanding the combat of the series, that is, adding brawler elements. If Sonic is not a brawler, they do not belong here.

Yes, because you've never taken damage in any game before Heroes. Seriously, have you even played a Sonic game?

It's hardly a brawling element, though. All I'm doing is saying you can't just plow through enemies without some effort. I thought you Classic fans hated being able to plow through enemies? (And yes, I do agree that you shouldn't be able to boost through enemies).

If you can't do precision platforming with a normal jump, there's a problem. And if the hammer jump is so difficult that you'd need a different move for newbies to use until they figured out how to use it properly (at which point the double jump becomes redundant), there's a problem.

Well if you're going to implement a braking move, then yeah, it is redundant. But otherwise, you need a shitload of skill to be able to make precise jumps at full speed with the Hammer Catapault. That's where the Double Jump comes in.

[Tornado]

You lost me when you claimed modern gameplay wasn't trial and error.

Also starting to think you are just trolling, too; based on how much of that post were basically variations of "NO U."

Edited January 2, 2012 by Tornado

[Rusty Spy]

On the subject of combat in a Sonic game, I kinda have to defend Bolt a little. I don't like his idea, but I do support the idea of implementing some sort of unique way to defeat enemies in an efficiently other than bopping them on the head, specifically with Knuckles.

I mentioned a thousand years ago about the idea of implementing his basic punch combo from Heroes along with a grab move to pick up enemies and perform a Fire Dunk (throw enemies at other enemies). Those moves flowed really well in Heroes, specifically, you can punch through waves of enemies, have your teammates at the ready and throw them to destroy even more enemies in a quick, smooth motion. Only change I'd make would be instead of having teammates to grab, you could execute a grabbing move which is the same forward-dash punch except it picks up an enemy in one of Knux's fists and from there you can jump and fire them with the punch button.

[Bolt The Cat]

You lost me when you claimed modern gameplay wasn't trial and error.

[E-25]

I'm not. I'm trying to be patient with you guys, but you're all bashing me for being a Modern fan.

Edited January 2, 2012 by E-25

[Diogenes]

In what way would that cripple the other characters? If anything, it'd be the other way around.

If Sonic only really benefits from spending his boost energy on boosting, he can boost all he wants. Other characters, which will have useful non-boost moves to use boost energy, would have to split their boost energy between those moves and boosting.

Well using the jump button to Spin Dash is a bad idea, because what would you do if you wanted to crouch/roll and jump?

If you're crouching and want to jump, stop crouching. If you're rolling and want to jump...you just jump, because you can't spindash while rolling.

Not unless you were insanely good at Sonic games.

The more you practiced, the more you understood the mechanics, the more you learned the level, the better you'd be able to do.

Well the Classics aren't that far away.

So basically what I can conclude from this is that you are really bad at classic Sonic.

I mean high speed platforming.

"High speed platforming" describes what I want as well.

Who are you to say that? Sonic has changed (I'd say evolved) over the years,

It's evolved in the same way cave animals lose their eyesight after living so many hundred (?) generations in total darkness. Losing a previously meaningful aspect because it was no longer necessary to survive. But now we're bringing that cave fish out in the light and the poor blind thing's vestigial eyes are burning and I've totally lost control of this metaphor.

Put simply: The series didn't improve. It shed an important aspect because people let them get away with it.

what Sonic is about is different and the series means something different to everyone.

Because Sonic Team did a bunch of different shit instead of figuring out how to make a 3D Sonic game. And I guess because some people didn't realize there was more to the Genesis games than running and jumping, and think that somehow that makes it reasonable to limit the series rather than keep true to its actual ideas at no cost to themselves.

the gameplay still has speed and platforming, and that's enough to make it a valid gameplay style. So deal with it.

It is a gameplay style, sure. But "speed and platforming" alone does not define Sonic.

has speed and platforming, but even if you controlled a blue hedgehog, it would not be a Sonic game.

All right, then humor me. What else was so great about the Classics, because other than what I've said, I see nothing about the series that sets it apart from other Classic platformers.

A simple but effective physics engine that allowed for high speed gameplay and gravity-defying action based on player skill. The basic concept is simple; Sonic interacts with angled ground in a fairly realistic and predictable manner, gaining speed downhill and losing it uphill, and doing so better while rolling. Proper understanding of these mechanics would allow you to go faster, keep your speed longer, and pull off more impressive stunts, using that speed to run on walls and ceilings and to pull off massive jumps. The controls were tight, the gameplay unique and rewarding, and further understanding and practice would deepen that reward.

Again, now we're coming down to a matter of opinions. There's nothing about the speed that makes it not a valid gameplay style. It's a matter of the direction Sonic Team wants to go in, and they seem more or less content with the Modern gameplay.

Yeah, that's why they made Sonic 4, Generations Classic, the CD port...they surely don't have any interest in pursuing the classic gameplay...

Though to be fair it's largely because they've been losing fans for not doing so, rather than true interest on their part.

No, you are the one who's acting like your opinion is fact. Just because you happen to like the Classic gameplay doesn't mean it's the best thing for the series.

I am acting like my opinion is well supported because I and several others have studied these games over the course of the series' life, trying to understand why we liked them and what they actually did. Your argument doesn't seem to be much more than "well I and some other people like it, and it's still fast and jumpy so it's fine".

It's not trial and error, you actually have to think about what you're doing instead of just blindly trying a random move.

You rarely have time to think. That's the problem when you mix very high speeds with not knowing what is coming up next.

It's hardly a brawling element, though.

You are giving him werehog moves. Do you not realize that was a brawler?

All I'm doing is saying you can't just plow through enemies without some effort. I thought you Classic fans hated being able to plow through enemies? (And yes, I do agree that you shouldn't be able to boost through enemies).

The problem with the boost is that you are very rarely not in "attack" mode. The way the levels are designed, and with boosting having almost no downside, you are rarely not covered in the protective barrier of the boost. With rolling and no boost, you choose between staying on your feet, which gives you more control but leaves you more vulnerable, or rolling, which protects you from enemies but tends to leave you at the mercy of the terrain. It's a balance, see. That I don't want to plow through swaths of enemies like they're not even there does not mean I want to go to the opposite extreme and play Sonic May Cry.

But otherwise, you need a shitload of skill to be able to make precise jumps at full speed with the Hammer Catapault. That's where the Double Jump comes in.

And to me this says that there should be one balanced move rather than one easy but eventually redundant move and one hard but clearly better move. Especially if you describe it as requiring a "shitload of skill".

It's certainly moving away from that point. Or haven't you noticed the de-emphasis on QTEs and inclusion of more platforming?

Your idea of speedy platforming is barely any different from QTEs.

I'm not. I'm trying to be patient with you guys, but you're all bashing me for being a Modern fan.

No one is bashing you simply for being a modern fan.

[Bolt The Cat]

Just like back at the other forum, it's not because of what gameplay style you like best, it's because you don't seem to have a clear and defined direction you want to go in that fits with what you say. Instead you say speed and imply slow brawling; and for some reason hate the thought of actually needing to be careful with platforming by reducing your speed and stopping to rev up a spindash...

Granted, my ideas aren't always well developed (I refine them over time), they're not that terrible are they? I mean I never got this much criticism on SEGA.

If Sonic only really benefits from spending his boost energy on boosting, he can boost all he wants. Other characters, which will have useful non-boost moves to use boost energy, would have to split their boost energy between those moves and boosting.

I was thinking of giving Sonic Chaos Boost or something along those lines, but now I'm reconsidering. What do you think?

If you're crouching and want to jump, stop crouching. If you're rolling and want to jump...you just jump, because you can't spindash while rolling.

Crouching and jumping would be useful if you need to jump over an obstacle in a tight space. They've done the same thing in Mario IIRC. Rolling then jumping is necessary if you want to jump in ball form without going careening forward in a certain direction. However, boosting in ball form is not necessary because boost by definition requires you to be standing. And if you think about it, isn't Spin Dash a sort of rolling boost?

The more you practiced, the more you understood the mechanics, the more you learned the level, the better you'd be able to do.

So basically what I can conclude from this is that you are really bad at classic Sonic.

No, I'm okay at Classic Sonic. It's just not something you can speed run easily.

"High speed platforming" describes what I want as well.

You don't seem to want "high speed".

It's evolved in the same way cave animals lose their eyesight after living so many hundred (?) generations in total darkness. Losing a previously meaningful aspect because it was no longer necessary to survive. But now we're bringing that cave fish out in the light and the poor blind thing's vestigial eyes are burning and I've totally lost control of this metaphor.

Put simply: The series didn't improve. It shed an important aspect because people let them get away with it.

Because Sonic Team did a bunch of different shit instead of figuring out how to make a 3D Sonic game. And I guess because some people didn't realize there was more to the Genesis games than running and jumping, and think that somehow that makes it reasonable to limit the series rather than keep true to its actual ideas at no cost to themselves.

Maybe to you, the series has lost it's importance, but you have to think about people who aren't Classic fans. Whether or not the fans like what you happen to think is good is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that there are fans that like the series for things that didn't exist in the Classics. Telling them "We're going back to the Genesis gameplay, if you don't like it then though shit" is a terrible business approach and will lose them a lot of fans. Like it or not, the series can never go back to the way it used to be. The only way for the series to regain its popularity is if they find a way to compromise the... let's say "needs" of each of the different groups of series. So if you can't

respect that Modern fans like the high speed boost oriented gameplay, then I have nothing more to say to you.

Edited January 3, 2012 by Bolt The Cat

[E-25]

Granted, my ideas aren't always well developed (I refine them over time), they're not that terrible are they? I mean I never got this much criticism on SEGA.

Because the SEGA Forum is filled with people that don't want serious discussion and just troll, post gifs, and make joke threads / pointless arguments about Wave's shirt.